(potentially?) controversial topic - Sponsors vs Affiliates

[Lee]

I want to clarify something here, if I may. What upset me the most in this thread was the attitude, especially from Lee, treating affiliates like some lowlife (I already provided the quote that infuriated me), who are there to scam the program owners from their hard earned money.

Nowhere did i say that affiliates are lowlifes trying to scam program owners, what i actually said was that most affiliates (with some exceptions) are like that based on my own experiences and not just those affiliates promoting gay sites affiliates across a wide spectrum of niches across the entire adult industry.

I don't think being selective in choosing your affiliates is a bad thing. Not at all. What's more, I don't think sponsors should babysit affiliates and provide their every whim. I see programs that offer affiliates everything, from domain names to hosting, from learning tools to FHG's, movies, free content, everything! It's my opinion that this is too much and is a bad thing for all of us that are serious about making it in this biz for the long term. If there are people that need to be spoonfed in order to bring you sales, then by all means, weed them out. They are a waste not only of your time, but of mine as well, because all they do is oversaturate the market.

You seem to be missing the point that, whether you like it or not, 99% of affiliates in the industry today want just what you posted above. These are the affiliates that both Brian and myself are talking about, yes, there are a few affiliates as has been shown in this thread that do work hard, that dont demand a lot, that do add to a programs overall profitability and these are the ones that every program owner respects and wants to build bigger and better business relationships with.

But those that send traffic but not enough, I think you should contact them and discuss things and see where they are, what their plans are. See if they are going for long term traffic and what their goals are in regards to your program.

Therein lays another problem, speaking from experience, when i have actively approached affiliates from the two programs i have owned, and the numerous programs i have worked with, 99.99% of those very same affiliates come back and tell you they dont need help, and that if you contact them again, they will stop promoting you. In my mind, these are affiliates who think they know everything there is to know about everything and are in essence, worthless to the continual success to a program, doing nothing but costing the program money hand over fist whilst making perhaps 1 or 2 sales a year.

I think that if a program owner chooses to work with affiliates, then show those affiliates some minimal respect and don't go on making such insulting generalizations in boards that your affiliates frequent... If you think they are such a pain, don't start an affiliation program. Market your own sites and let us do business with other programs instead.

Again, as this thread has proven, that isnt the way the 'real world' works. Yes affiliates are a pain (for the most part), yes affiliates are demanding above and beyond what they should be (for the most part), and yes some affiliates cost a program much more than they make the program.

Whether you start an affiliate program or not, there are always going to be issues with affiliates and potential affiliates, those that want to promote your sites and bitch when you dont let them, even though you dont have a program, those who join your program and bitch that you arent giving them enough, those that join a program, send 100 hits in a month and expect to convert at 1:10, the list goes on and on and on.

You cant please everyone all of the time unfortunately, it all goes back t what was mentioned earlier in this thread, over the last 5+ years affiliates have been pandered to so much that they expect their demands to be met without hesitation on the part of the program owners, this has to change otherwise we [the industry] have no chances at longevity.

There are always exceptions to the rule and this thread shows that those of us posting on GWW make up a good portion of those exceptions. On the other hand, go to any other industry board and honestly tell me you cant find at least 10-20 posters bitching about programs, asking programs for more, more, more, more and who make more than 5 sales a month for those same programs they are bitching about and asking more from.

We [program owners] have pandered to the affiliates we have so much that we've pretty much fucked ourselves in the process because, now we have offered our #1 affiliate free content, everyone wants it, now we have offered our #1 affiliate 60% instead of 50%, everyone wants it, and that just cant continue to be the way affiliate programs are ran, it doesnt help the program owners, and it certainly doesnt help the programs affiliates.

Regards,

Lee

[CorbinFisher_BD]

I think alot of these descriptive words may hold true for the way you are acting in this thread. When you get on a board, hold the arrogant attitude that you have been doing all the way around, and basically downing and cutting out 95% of your affiliates (who i may add, have helped to make your company what it is), telling them that they aren't good enough for CF, these are the things that you are going to be called.

It is worth noting, that even on other boards, you don't have much of a different attitude, even asking one guy, "why get your panties in such a bunch?"

I'd beg to differ.

You have no way of knowing just how few of those 95% of affiliates ever even referred a single sale in 3 years. You also don't know just how small a percentage affiliate sales make or have ever made out of our total sales from the very first day the site was launched. I'd imagine you'd need those numbers at your disposal before declaring on our behalf that those 95% of affiliates are so responsible for our sites' growth. You don't have any way of knowing how many of those 95% of affiliates haven't even referred a single click.

People are vastly exagerrating the value of those 95% of affiliates.

I could have come in to this thread and said we were getting rid of 95% of our affiliates in the most delicate, 60s era free love tone one could ever imagine and it still would have inspired hostility.

BTW, Dean, Squirtit's "cheap and elistist" comments came even before I mentioned anything in this thread about the changes we were making to our affiliate program.

Attitude begets attitude.

Just like it did on the IGP thread you mentioned where the "panties in a bunch" comment came only after someone decided to lash out at me.

[CorbinFisher_BD]

And on a more general note, not directed specifically at you Brian, I think that if a program owner chooses to work with affiliates, then show those affiliates some minimal respect and don't go on making such insulting generalizations in boards that your affiliates frequent... If you think they are such a pain, don't start an affiliation program. Market your own sites and let us do business with other programs instead.

I think that on countless occasions throughout this thread I've pointed out that there are affiliates out there who can be of immeasurable value and that certain partnerships can make or break sponsor/paysites and that my statements regarding burdensome affiliates don't apply to all affiliates.

I beef is with indiscriminate partnerships on both sides, but obviously from the sponsor perspective as that is what I do and what my business does.

From my very first post in this thread, before being accused of being elitist and cheap and all manner of other things...

Mind you, there are a lot of affiliates who work their asses off to promote sponsors, promote their sponsors in unique ways and do wonders in contributing the development of their own brand as well as the brands of their sponsors. There are also many affiliates who can choose to promote a new site and, in doing so, set that sponsor on a path to success (bring publicity to an up and coming yet relatively unknown site). There are many affilites - the major, high traffic ones - that literally can set a site on fire and turn it in to a success. There are also affiliates who are up and coming and may end up being the best affiliate a sponsor ever had, though not quite there yet.

[tigermom]

Brian, I think it has a lot to do with the tone of the post that started this thread -

Is that really only worth 50% compared to the effort of an affiliate who may or may not have done anything more than just throw up a banner on their site and happened to send a surfer your way?

You list how much work the sponsor does, then tell us that in your view, affiliates don't do much more than "throw up a banner on their site". You imply that affiliates just get lucky, getting sales that you would have made anyway, simply because a surfer "happened to click" their ref code.

I think that an affiliate that does nothing more than put up a page somewhere and slap you banner on it won't be making any sales. No revenue for you or for him. It takes more work than that. It takes planning and it sometimes takes trial and error to see which kind of traffic a certain sponsor converts best with. It takes a lot of effort to actually generate sales and it takes time to build up the right SE traffic too.

What offended me was the portrayal of sponsors vs. affiliates in the lines where sponsors are hard working people, and affiliates are a bunch of lazy spoiled brats who expect to get something for nothing. Yes, Lee, I know that affiliate boards are full of idiots who think they can get something for very little work, who expect sponsors to spoonfeed and baby sit them. I think that if you read those boards in-depth, you'll see that they get scolded by the serious people in the biz (affiliates, no less) that keep telling them this is about hard work, for the long term. How many are these in terms of percentage? I'm not sure. I do know that even if only 5% are serious hard-working webmasters, you may consider being more careful in making generalizations, because it's likely that those hard-working 5% may be the ones reading your posts...

I already said before in this thread, by all means, raise the threshhold and cut out the people that think sponsors should provide them with every tool on the planet, wasting everyone's time, and creating competition for me Just do it in a fair manner, let them know in advance that you have specific requirements and work with the ones that are serious. Moreoever, once they have links up to your program, just leave it. Why? well, this brings me to the next point, which addresses Brian's thoughts in the very first post in this thread.

When an affiliate promotes a sponsor, they help brand that sponsor, even without generating a sale. For example, I have posts on my college blog right now, promoting Corbin Fisher. I am targeting a certain search phrase with a post, say for example, "college hunks by the pool". I optimize my page for that term, hoping to get those people who may be searching for "college hunks by the pool" on Google (not now, maybe six months from now). These people may or may not know about the Corbin Fisher site. I know it seems to you at this point that everyone does, but hey, I didn't know the names of most of the porn sites I am promoting (and I'm not talking gay sites). Anyway, someone searches for "college hunks by the pool" and gets to my page, because I have put time and work into optimizing the page, buliding up links etc. Or maybe they become regulars on my blog, and get back, doesn't matter. It's traffic that I worked to bring in. They read the post about the Corbin Fisher site. Will they make a purchase? Some may, hopefully. Most won't. They will move on elsewhere on the net. But... and here's my point, they were exposed to your brand name. They may later just type in corbinfisher.com, into their browser, long after my cookie expires. It may take reading 5 or 10 posts made by me and by other affiliates on blogs. It may take seeing your site promoted on other affilaites's sites, on galleries or whatever. It creates brand recognition. And we get paid nothing for it. Zilch. Eventually, they may generate a sale that goes to Corbin Fisher, either shared with one lucky affiliate or not.

You know, on one of my mainstream sites, a large site in its field with lots of very targeted traffic, I work with advertisers directly. Many offer affiliation programs, but I almost always refuse. I only sell CPM advertising, where they pay just to have their ad on my site. I do this because I feel that even if I don't generate any sales for them at that point, they are still getting something for their money. They are getting the branding effect. My visitors have that advertiser's name, URL, logo, product, whatever, branded into their mind, time and time again. Someday they may make a purchase, or tell their friends about it. The advertiser gets his value worth for the ad, which is much higher than a percentage per a certain sale made during the time of the campaign.

So, something to keep in mind. The affiliates that registered with you and never put up your links, they're dead driftwood on your db, I don't think it would even matter to them to be deleted. But affiliates that did put up links, sent you traffic, even if it didn't convert, they helped promote your site and brand it. If you were to pay them CPM for displaying your banner, or even CPC per click, rather than pay them per sale, you would owe them money by now.

[Squirt]

BTW, Dean, Squirtit's "cheap and elistist" comments came even before I mentioned anything in this thread about the changes we were making to our affiliate program.

I was responding to your first post and I didn't call you cheap. I said "if the company you work for is so cheap....."

We had a minor tiff in this thread it's over and we're beyond it. I don't have any animosity towards you Brian, or the company you work for. No need to address past aggressions. All is good.

[Xstr8guy]

Hmmm, I wonder if this isn't just a ploy to force under-performing affiliates to step up their promotion efforts to avoid being booted?

[deanb]

Hmmm, I wonder if this isn't just a ploy to force under-performing affiliates to step up their promotion efforts to avoid being booted?

Well, based on his comments here, and others, i would guess otherwise. Maybe he hoped for that, but what I think that what Brian achieved, was to get his affiliates promoting other sponsers..

Maybe your thought was the origional goal, but I know for a fact, that affiliates have pulled the plug on Corbin Fisher because of his remarks...

[deanb]

affiliates have pulled the plug on Corbin Fisher because of his remarks...

then again, as remarked above, he doesn't care about 'their traffic' and might very well be the undeserved sales he is referring to.

[basschick]

personally i wouldn't pull a sponsor for remarks a rep makes on a board unless it's way out of line. me feeling someone is arrogant isn't even close to a reason to make less money - after all, i don't have to talk with the rep on a personal level.

[Carrie]

Some great posts made by both sides here.
Brian, I thought you were blatantly honest and to the point; that's refreshing. I also thought you explained everything very well and professionally. (Okay the one little dig at Squirt, not so professional, but I understand there's a history there.) I also like that you are not simply drawing a line and cutting off anyone below that line; you're putting more thought and review into it.

We've been discussing this extensively on another board and I do have a question - what of the affiliates who sign up, never send a sale, but who send a number of referred affiliates and make referral $$ each month? Will they be cut because of their own lack of traffic, or will they be kept because they have sent you productive webmasters and are promoting you in that sense?

Folks, try to step back and look at this objectively. It might be that you're too close to the situation to pull the emotional aspect out of it. Sponsors doing this will make their programs better for all involved. Less competition, less saturation and watering-down... hell, less free porn dragging down signups.
More sponsors should do this. It would be better for the industry as a whole. (Actually they should be "closed" from the get-go and develop their own traffic sources, but that's another thread. Becky's post on the future of ARS and her focus on developing internal traffic was quite eye-opening. Could be we'll see ARS making a move like this sometime in the next year or two?)

[tigermom]

Hey, Carrie, nice to see you here!

I've just posted something on another board, which is relevant to this thread as well, so I thought I'd repost here. The other thread was started over the fact that 20 new sponsors have opened their gates over the past weekend. It's addressing the phenomenon that so many people seem to think that a viable business model is buying tons of content, setting up a group of paysites (non-exclusive content on all), and launching an affiliate program with those, hoping to eventually make a buck with having lots of affiliates to promote them.

This is what I posted -
I think that when you rely on affiliates to promote your site, and you are working within a finite pool of affiliates, then this business model becomes real problematic over time. It's getting too saturated for program owners. And what happens next? they start competing over affilaites tooth and nail. They don't compete over customers, because they don't really have anything unique to offer as a paysite, just the same non-exclusive content others have. So, they compete over affiliates, assuming that the more, the better. And they start spoiling their affiliates. Free hosting? you got it! Free domains? you got it! Need us to write your blog posts for you and syndicate for you? Sure thing! Need more FHG's? more banners? how about we make banners specially for you? everything and anything is being given away to just any affiliate.

Then it gets to the point where some program owners get pissed off at having to spoil affiliates like that. Well, I think there's an easy enough solution. Just don't overpamper affiliates. Set your own limits, as a program owner, as to what you will or won't do for an affiliate. By all means, relate that to the amount of sales they drive, if you want to. Define some affiliates as Gold Affiliates, or whatever, and be in constant touch with these, offering the big players more help. With the others, let them bitch and moan about it if they can't promote your site without being provided 10,000 tools for it. I would say the single one thing a program needs to give affiliates is promo content. Even that is just if they have exclusive content that they can't buy anywhere and which truly reflect the product. Sort of like samples of the actual thing that we can show prospective clients. They don't need to be huge images and they don't need to be movies.

My advice to program owners would be this. Get real good paysites, something unique, something exclusive, something that actually converts well. Get good ratios. Promote your sites with no affiliates to begin with, polish your tours and get good convertions and good retention. Then, when you know you have a good product, and only then, start bringing in affilaites, slowly and gradually. Don't spoon feed them anything. Take serious affiliates, ones that know how to build their own sites, write their own blogs, create their own galleries, and lo and behold, maybe even create their own banners! The point should be to get affiliates joining you because -
1. Your site retains and converts.
2. You're honest and don't shave.

Thats it! No need for crazy payouts, Hummers as prizes or nakes girls at shows. Just get a good product that makes both of us money and be honest. Is all I would ask for.

[Lee]

I've just posted something on another board, which is relevant to this thread as well, so I thought I'd repost here. The other thread was started over the fact that 20 new sponsors have opened their gates over the past weekend. It's addressing the phenomenon that so many people seem to think that a viable business model is buying tons of content, setting up a group of paysites (non-exclusive content on all), and launching an affiliate program with those, hoping to eventually make a buck with having lots of affiliates to promote them.

Ive been following that thread over on NetPond (until Paul chimed in) also and i have to say, in my opinion, the fact that people are opening up affiliate programs hand over fist isnt the problem in any way, shape, or form.

The problem is that these programs are never going to be heard of again, and ultimately, they will fail.

The reason? Because a lot of these revshare program owners think they can open a program, make a post or two on the boards, offer FHGs, free sites, banners, blogs, etc etc and affiliates will promote them, thus contributing to what we're discussing here. It has become a staple of programs to do whatever their affiliates ask of them, to the point where now, if you launch a program without FHGs, nobody is going to promote you.

The other problem these programs are going to start seeing in the next few days is that if they dont have their own stable base of webmaster traffic, even if they offer affiliates the moon on a stick, they are still going to fail, because they are competing with the other 1000 affiliate programs offering the moon on a stick, in the same pool of affiliates.

There is a reason it took me 6 years to start my own affiliate program, i was more interested in laying the foundation of having a 'base' of potential affiliates, in a closed envirment to market the program to, something that almost every program that launches doesnt have.

In all honesty, if i had launched Condom Cash and not owned the largest gay marketing resource, it would have closed down within a month or two of launch because i wouldnt have been able to get affiliates other than the ones wanting PPS, free hosted promo out the wazoo, etc etc.

Regards,

Lee

[tigermom]

The reason? Because a lot of these revshare program owners think they can open a program, make a post or two on the boards, offer FHGs, free sites, banners, blogs, etc etc and affiliates will promote them, thus contributing to what we're discussing here. It has become a staple of programs to do whatever their affiliates ask of them, to the point where now, if you launch a program without FHGs, nobody is going to promote you.

The other problem these programs are going to start seeing in the next few days is that if they dont have their own stable base of webmaster traffic, even if they offer affiliates the moon on a stick, they are still going to fail, because they are competing with the other 1000 affiliate programs offering the moon on a stick, in the same pool of affiliates.

Well, we agree then And it's the sheer availablility of too many programs at this point that makes for such a hard competition between program owners. It makes them offer the moon on a stick, like you said, including increasinly high payouts too. And it's the wrong way to go, IMHO, because it attracts the wrong kind of affiliates to your program to begin with.

I have sponsors that offer little in terms of FHG's and banners, yes they offer kick-ass sites that convert and retain. Guess what? I'm promoting them more and more.

[Lee]

Well, we agree then And it's the sheer availablility of too many programs at this point that makes for such a hard competition between program owners. It makes them offer the moon on a stick, like you said, including increasinly high payouts too. And it's the wrong way to go, IMHO, because it attracts the wrong kind of affiliates to your program to begin with.

Agreed.

However, as Becky, Brian and myself mentioned earlier in this thread, without having all of those things, raised payouts, hosted whatevers, etc (including the moon on a stick) potential affiliates arent even going to look at a program because that is the mindset that we [the industry] have bred in to affiliates these days, they want high payouts, they want hosted whatevers, they want instant payouts, they want, want, want...

Unfortunately for many (affiliates and program owners) until this bar is lowered dramatically, its always going to be the same way and every month we'll see 20 more sponsors, offering all those hosted whatevers, trying to outdo the other 19 sponsors that launched the same week.

Something HAS to give, and as much as i hate to say it, its going to be the programs consolidating before the affiliates start getting lower payouts, and thats going to hurt us all.

I remember when all you were given by a sponsor was a paysite to promote, a linking code, and a banner. Guess what? Back then, sales ratios were through the roof, you could submit a free site and a tgp gallery and have made $1000+ in a weekend. Of course, we didnt have the proliferation of affiliates back then either like we do now and im positive that had a lot to do with the changes over the years.

Regards,

Lee

[pocoloco78]

- Carrie : Nice to see you in here. You are correct about the positive effects this will have. Good questions... hope someone is going to answer these. I am curious myself.

- Tigermom : You are so right. Affiliates asking for free hosting, custom made banners, hosted freesites, RSS Feeds, unlimited access to memberareas, etc... are probably the ones that can't depend on their own skills, which I think is bad for an affiliate.

Sponsors giving away all those things just to please the affiliates, are helping to ruin this market. Most affiliates I know just want a temp login to see what they will be selling, a few promopics and that is about it.

- That other post just made me smile.