(potentially?) controversial topic - Sponsors vs Affiliates

[CorbinFisher_BD]

Internal traffic generation has become very important to me.

That's really the key. I think the industry has been misguided in thinking affiliate traffic is the only way to go. It's substituted, for many sponsors/paysites, real effort at their own traffic generation. Rather than build up their own traffic base, they just work on getting traffic from affiliates. It's put for this inflated perception of the value of forth. It was the cheap and easy way to do things, and ended up creating the idea that affiliates were the end all and be all and the only way to get traffic.

The hostility we've seen when challenging that paradigm is unbelievable, yet at the same time we know and couldn't possibly be more secure and confident that abandoning the dependence upon affiliates is the best way to go.

There is a huge difference between strategic partnerships with valuable affiliates and the indiscriminate recruitment of any and all affiliates by any and all means at any and all costs.

[Paco]

Oh, here I go, again:
- Many webmasters seem to think sponsors would be lost without their traffic.
- Many seem to think sponsors owe them, and should be extremely grateful for the MUTUAL relationship. (Many seem to treat their sending us, traffic and us paying them for it, as a huge favour from them.)
- All webmasters have a different opinion of what a lot of traffic is.
- Many webmasters do not live-up to the title web master. (how do I build a gallery; how do I resize a thumb; how do I acquire traffic; where do I put banners - and the hits keep rolling on out[slash]et cetera et cetera et cetera). I am not joking about the questions/e-mails I get.

~ Many seem to forget that sponsors also know how to, and do, market their sites.
~ Many do not realize that 1000 RAWs/day is merely the start point for the phrase "a fair amount of traffic" - never mind "a lot" or "a ton"!
~ Many forget we pay them more than we receive. We pay $35-40 on a $29.95 join. Do the fucking math, genius!
~ Many webmasters like pushing their luck because they believe sponsors will always grab their ankles for them.

A webmaster actually had the tubes (balls) to submit her list of demands to me: if you expect me to continue to send you the large amount of traffic that I have been, you MUST...

She was sending 1-2 clicks per day, which were quite often the worse kind of uniques - she was clicking her own links.
I tried to inform her, politely, that she must have confused us with another sponsor whom she's been sending the "large amount" to because we've only seen 1-2/day since day 'x'.

She got extremely mad and threatened to take it to the boards.
I gave her the link to GFY and I closed her account!

The webmasters that send the lower amounts tend to ask for the world, while those delivering by the wheel barrel & dump truck loads (usually sponsors) never ask for a freaking thing!

Last month we sent 100-joins to A site (yah, it a big dicker), and not once did I ask for any of the outrageous things th@ :crazy: web "master" asked for (exclusive to her content which must be watermarked with her ... HER ... flipping site logo, which was larger than ours).

Okay, I lied - I asked for two things: a). please, do NOT give us the higher payout (I do not think that is proper), and b). please, turn off all "specials", "bonus days", "contests" etc (I do not think they are proper).

I wish some of the head-in-the-clouds webmasters would try their hand at marketing mainstream products (nothing @ all to do with the "adult" world) so they can realize just how sweet things are for them.

Oh man, WTF am I going on about! I am merely a :paco: whom works for an affiliate program that steals sales and traffic (or so a lot of ArtBell'ish WM like to think).

Some webmaster like to think there will only be one or two organizations that control/run/sponsor/offer adult sites.

I think it is going to the exact opposite!

[Lee]

The webmasters that send the lower amounts tend to ask for the world, while those delivering by the wheel barrel & dump truck loads (usually sponsors) never ask for a freaking thing!

Just wanted to quote that because despite what some may think, its the truth LOL

Although to be fair, the sponsors that are able to send out lots of traffic are only able to do so primarily because they have pandered their affiliates.

Regards,

Lee

[CorbinFisher_BD]

The webmasters that send the lower amounts tend to ask for the world, while those delivering by the wheel barrel & dump truck loads (usually sponsors) never ask for a freaking thing!

So true.

The webmasters that ask for the least don't need such handholding by the sponsor because they already have a very developed business model, experience, know what they're doing, have been successful at building up their own sites and traffic bases, and are extremely able - on their own - to know what sells for them and how to make money for themselves.

I think a big reason a lot of affiliates that feel most threatened by the prospect of sponsor programs no longer bending over backwards for them are threatened mainly because they realize their gravy train might just stop rolling. Relative to what larger affiliates and sponsors are up to, they're living on easy street.

Many seem to think sponsors owe them, and should be extremely grateful for the MUTUAL relationship. (Many seem to treat their sending us, traffic and us paying them for it, as a huge favour from them.)

That's another thing.

If a sponsor doesn't convert well for an affiliate, that affiliate will drop that sponsor in an instant. Of course they will. They have every right to drop that sponsor like a bad habit.

But when sponsors talk about dropping affiliates, people start screaming bloody murder. For a sponsor to drop an affiliate that doesn't produce for them is heresy!

[Paco]

Just wanted to quote that because despite what some may think, its the truth LOL
Although to be fair, the sponsors that are able to send out lots of traffic are only able to do so primarily because they have pandered their affiliates.
Regards,
Lee

before the others correct you: you meant to say pilfered from..., right?

[Paco]

Corbin - I always knew had a loverly set of eyes!

I still treat new webmaster very well and I still do things for ALL good webmasters.

People complain about the CJ days, but at least there was a common goal amongst the community - everybody benefits.

[Xstr8guy]

People complain about the CJ days, but at least there was a common goal amongst the community - everybody benefits.

Everyone except the customer.

[Paco]

Everyone except the customer.

*swipping hand in front of monitor*
oh you - you're being silly. What do they matter?

Visitors did not get shovelled away until they proved that they were not really interested in dishing out the moooooooolah! Denied cookies and working their way through the collection showed their worth, just like the penny that gets pushed through the gutters on its way to the sewer!

[markwolff]

Another thing I think is fascinating is the idea that a sponsor program that makes itself exclusive-access is "elitist". I think that reflects upon a warped sense of entitlement that exists all over the affiliate world.

I view CorbinFisher.com as a corporation, and our affiliates as our franchises. We invest in them, they invest in us. We do have a mutual partnership, which is precisely why I decided to close off our affiliate program and make it invite-only.

That enables us to have customized, individualized, unique and original campaigns with every single remaining affiliate and work more and more with them, as opposed to possibly spending too much effort on an affiliate whose returns wouldn't be worth it.

Affiliates can represent sponsors - they can be the source of a surfers first impression of a sponsor. So controlling how you're being presented to surfers by affiliates is key.

How can a sponsor program with 1400 affiliates possibly track things to make sure people are being honest, ethical, and legal in how they promote you? You can't.

Too many franchises alse produce self-cannibalization, where franchises are no longer generating new business but just fighting amongst one another for business. Limiting franchises helps prevent that.

There is no divine right to promote a sponsor. That sponsor is perfectly entitled to pick and choose whatever affiliates they want or not have an affiliate program at all. The notion that when you luanch a paysite, you're now obliged to have an affilaite program almost as some sort of public service or bound duty is ludicrous.

As is the notion that every affiliate is worth 50%, I think. And I think that sponsor programs that exist to cater to the webmaster instead of to the surfer end up costing the industry in the long run by creating cynical, skeptical surfers that have likely been burned in the past and made distrustful of paysites, all because someone earned a huge commission off of them.

This has been an interesting post, and one that i have spoken about to many of my affiliates at various conventions. i think this is the way you are going to see many programs go, i know with my affiliate program the top 10% of the webmasters make 90% of the sales as well, and if you are going to be paying 50% which i don't mind doing, provided they are working and sending sales on a regular basis, otherwise the other 90% are just out there watering down your exposure. Back to the original question as to weather an affiliate deserves the 50% it's a tough question. i think the ones that work hard to promote your site and use the tools you give them effectivly are worth the 50% but the ones that send a few sales a year? i think there days are numbered, as the sponsor will just begin to discard them and make the affiliate program invite only. As a site owner i do laugh sometimes, when i see the checks ccbill is sending some of our top affiliates, now i make a nice living, i enjoy my work, but hell after i deduct all my expenses for model fees, hosting, video editing, promotion etc these guys are making more than me, and the only thing they have invested is there time.There have been a few times, when i thought maybe i should go back to tech school and learn how to post TGP's

[tombarr]

One thing that is potentially damaging to limiting your affiliates to invited affiliates only is the loss of the branding effect of eyeballs on your banners on smaller sites around the web..... even though they may not click....then...the branding effect may cause them to click or recall the brand at a later time or the next viewing of the banner on another site.

[Squirt]

One thing that is potentially damaging to limiting your affiliates to invited affiliates only is the loss of the branding effect of eyeballs on your banners on smaller sites around the web..... even though they may not click....then...the branding effect may cause them to click or recall the brand at a later time or the next viewing of the banner on another site.

SSSshhhh Don't tell him that

Besides, elite sites like Corbin Fisher say they don't need the exposure and they say they can't be bothered with 95% of their affiliates. :scissors:

[maxpower]

I think its a grate idea, I think shutting down your affiliate programs to only allow the top 80-95% of webmasters will end in good times for all around you :broccoli:

[tombarr]

There are a few other thoughts that come to mind in this topic for me..

- The referring traffic whales of today may not be the whales of tomorrow.
- The fledgling affiiate today may be the whale of tomorrow and shunned today he may become your worst referral tomorrow. And when he becomes a "qualifying" site to be "invited" to join a program, he may very well show you the upright end of his index finger.
- Whales have a notorious habit of migrating...and so do traffic whales.. to whomever gives them the best deal... links to your program are not based upon loyalty and can be shifted at the stroke of a text editor to other programs.
- As SE ranking in some and maybe many SE's is a result of links pointing to you using the "hilltop" theory of SE ranking, having less affiliates pointing to you can be dangerous in that regard
- AS smaller affiliates are trying to figure out what works for them and are less likely to move their banners, fhg's, free sites around once they are created you have a lot of embedded pointers and potential traffic webs in the big fishnet of marketing that can snare a purchase
- Other affiliates see banners on other sites and follow links to see what sites are worthy of being linked to.
- SEO is a constantly transient and elusive target. Some affiliates do it well. Some Sponsors create great content.. The two belong together.
But some sponsors can't do SEO with the efficiency that some afffiliate can, and trying to take on SEO is a daunting if not constantly elusive task so a good mix of affiliates and SEO in hand with good branding and quality product is the overall answer.

However, all that being said, there are thoughts on the other side of the equation as well.

- Sponsor programs have 1-upped each other to the point of being rediculous using every effort and giving away the store just to try to attract whale affiliates! $125 payouts on $2.95 trials? Crazy. How do they make that? By hammering the surfer in sometimes never ending popup strings or upsells.
- Sponsor programs have shown they will screw the surfer in favor of the affiliate by giving them every thing they have asked and more, and by creating an atmosphere where it takes some spectacularly huge payout to even get anyone interested in their program.
- Many Sponsor programs have forgotten that creating the quality product is more important to the overall long term health of their program than seeking the traffic surges attributed to fickle large affiliates at the expense of customer statisfaction and product quality.
- The PAY LARGE, Screw the surfer on quality and jerk them around when you get them mentality method of getting traffic is a lazy way to get traffic.

I think a good mix of affiliates, based upon their reviewed marketing methods, SEO, and development of a quality product with good branding campaigns is the overall best answer. So when a site applies to be an affiliate, review their proposed marketing method. Approve them whether they are performers now or not based upon how they plan to market your site. I would also think that a program as large and well known as Corbin Fisher and others could afford to have affiliate managers on a few levels..one or more to handle the big players, and one or more to handle smaller affiliates, educate, review, and help them develop. I think this approach seems to be a better fit for everyone where the risk of becoming isolationists, go it alone or with only selected affiliates, seems to be more abrasive, potentially offending, and not entirely productive in generating good will or traffic for the next inevitable generational shift in the type of marketing that works. The sponsors who get the mix right, are the sponsors that will be around in 5 years.

We just had an example of an affiliate making demands which i thought were a bit unreasonable. It was a review site. They refused to list our site even using our already installed affiliate system until we used something like NATS or MPA3 for the real time stats because they don't like CCBill stats.
Sure it's their traffic. Sure they can do it how they want.. but it's an example of an affiliate site making demands of the program instead of promoting the product that is there and already selling well.

[IntenseCash.com]

I think all affiliates are created equal and as long as they are not cheating the system in anyway they all deserve the 50% or more or whatever program they are sending to. We are in a very competitive market and there is plenty of money to be made. I think Amazon and those places can't pay affiliates much because they have a product they purchase which usually doesn't have much of a markup. I wish you guys good luck with whatever you decide. You guys have an awesome site and reputation.

Mark

[Squirt]

There are a few other thoughts that come to mind in this topic for me..

- The referring traffic whales of today may not be the whales of tomorrow.
- The fledgling affiiate today may be the whale of tomorrow and shunned today he may become your worst referral tomorrow. And when he becomes a "qualifying" site to be "invited" to join a program, he may very well show you the upright end of his index finger.
- Whales have a notorious habit of migrating...and so do traffic whales.. to whomever gives them the best deal... links to your program are not based upon loyalty and can be shifted at the stroke of a text editor to other programs.
- As SE ranking in some and maybe many SE's is a result of links pointing to you using the "hilltop" theory of SE ranking, having less affiliates pointing to you can be dangerous in that regard
- AS smaller affiliates are trying to figure out what works for them and are less likely to move their banners, fhg's, free sites around once they are created you have a lot of embedded pointers and potential traffic webs in the big fishnet of marketing that can snare a purchase
- Other affiliates see banners on other sites and follow links to see what sites are worthy of being linked to.
- SEO is a constantly transient and elusive target. Some affiliates do it well. Some Sponsors create great content.. The two belong together.
But some sponsors can't do SEO with the efficiency that some afffiliate can, and trying to take on SEO is a daunting if not constantly elusive task so a good mix of affiliates and SEO in hand with good branding and quality product is the overall answer.

However, all that being said, there are thoughts on the other side of the equation as well.

- Sponsor programs have 1-upped each other to the point of being rediculous using every effort and giving away the store just to try to attract whale affiliates! $125 payouts on $2.95 trials? Crazy. How do they make that? By hammering the surfer in sometimes never ending popup strings or upsells.
- Sponsor programs have shown they will screw the surfer in favor of the affiliate by giving them every thing they have asked and more, and by creating an atmosphere where it takes some spectacularly huge payout to even get anyone interested in their program.
- Many Sponsor programs have forgotten that creating the quality product is more important to the overall long term health of their program than seeking the traffic surges attributed to fickle large affiliates at the expense of customer statisfaction and product quality.
- The PAY LARGE, Screw the surfer on quality and jerk them around when you get them mentality method of getting traffic is a lazy way to get traffic.

I think a good mix of affiliates, based upon their reviewed marketing methods, SEO, and development of a quality product with good branding campaigns is the overall best answer. So when a site applies to be an affiliate, review their proposed marketing method. Approve them whether they are performers now or not based upon how they plan to market your site. I would also think that a program as large and well known as Corbin Fisher and others could afford to have affiliate managers on a few levels..one or more to handle the big players, and one or more to handle smaller affiliates, educate, review, and help them develop. I think this approach seems to be a better fit for everyone where the risk of becoming isolationists, go it alone or with only selected affiliates, seems to be more abrasive, potentially offending, and not entirely productive in generating good will or traffic for the next inevitable generational shift in the type of marketing that works. The sponsors who get the mix right, are the sponsors that will be around in 5 years.

We just had an example of an affiliate making demands which i thought were a bit unreasonable. It was a review site. They refused to list our site even using our already installed affiliate system until we used something like NATS or MPA3 for the real time stats because they don't like CCBill stats.
Sure it's their traffic. Sure they can do it how they want.. but it's an example of an affiliate site making demands of the program instead of promoting the product that is there and already selling well.

I've never had an affiliate make outrageous demands... in 6 years of doing business (knock on wood)

Wait.. I did.... once... it was banana guide - their rep told me to make a bunch of changes to my site... and I did exactly what he asked... then never heard from them again... then some guy on banana guide saw me post here on GWW about the dilema.. and he said all was good and he'd email me ... and he never did. That was the only bad experience I've had with an affiliate or a traffic site....

Except for JUB ... they seem to not be able to recieve my emails (selectively) the only promotion I see for my site on JUB is members asking for passwords to my site or asking another member if they have my videos to share I took the time to make photos and banners selectively for JUB... but I guess I'm not part of their elite 5% of webmasters they choose to aggressively promote. :nobody:

Ok that's two out of hundreds of affiliates... I'm happy. I like my affiliates. I also like SEO traffic that I create myself, and other traffic I create myself.

Life's to short. If someone brings in sales and traffic, treat them right, as long as they treat you right, and all is good.