(potentially?) controversial topic - Sponsors vs Affiliates

**CorbinFisher_BD** · 12-08-2006, 11:09 AM

A lot of very good points, tombarr, but I think the value of affiliates with regard to SEO isn't quite profound as many think, as the redirects involved in referral codes leave the search engines pretty unimpressed by the final destination of the code.

It is exactly our plan not just to limit the number of affiliates we have and shrink down our affiliate program considerably, but from that point on seek out strategic alliances with new affiliates to whom we're able to provide extensive support and service as well as fashion and develop unique and original marketing approaches.

Certainly, some affiliates will have no interest in ever dealing with us again and won't apply or won't respond if we e-mail or contact them asking if they'd be interested in becoming one of our affiliates.

But I also think there will be affiliates eager and willing to give things a shot knowing that they won't be competing with 1400 affiliates to generate sales for us, won't be competing with 1400 other affiliates to display the free content we provide to their surfers, won't be competing with 1400 other affiliates for the sponsors time and attention, etc etc.

Size/volume isn't the only criteria going in to what affiliates we keep. Of the 100 or so we will retain, 50 will be determined by top sales volume alone.

The other 50 will be affiliates who have clear and original ideas behind how they want to promote us, are respected and trusted within the industry, and would make great partners for a multitude of reasons beyond traffic. For example, there are some affiliates that don't refer sales/traffic to be in the top 50 with respect to that, but write eloquent and respected reviews and we're honored to keep them on board. There's one particular webmaster who posts on this board and isn't one of our top 50 or even 100 affiliates but is someone I consider an SEO guru (not to mention great guy) and I'd not dream of kicking them out of the program. Obviously new affiliates can't be accepted based on sales volume alone (because they might not have any statistics to show or be brand new to it all) and so how they plan to promote us is the criteria that goes in to whether or not they're accepted, not how much they can promote us.

I think a lot of people, when they see a sponsor program do what we are doing, see nothing but the most extreme. That it's so opposite what they're used to seeing that getting rid of any affiliates is equivalent to getting rid of all. It's draconian. But, in actuality, we're hiring and training new personnel to work in this smaller affiliate program, expanding resources we apply to our new affiliate set up, and have thought about this much more than they might think.

Much of what you wrote, tombarr, might as well have been the notes that came out of our meetings here that led to the decision to do with our affiliate program what we're doing and that discussed how to execute it.

**CorbinFisher_BD** · 12-08-2006, 11:13 AM

Originally Posted by Squirt

SSSshhhh Don't tell him that

Besides, elite sites like Corbin Fisher say they don't need the exposure and they say they can't be bothered with 95% of their affiliates. :scissors:

Yup thankfully we're not in a position like some others that are probably desperate for any and all traffic they can get and so that's why it sucks so bad when people like BananaGuide and JUB don't promote em :high:

**shaun** · 12-08-2006, 11:54 AM

Originally Posted by marcjacob

Becky is it really that much to ask? A few fhgs, some banners of different sizes? Most serious programs are providing this anyway. Why does asking for it make me a bad webmaster or a "lazy overpaid" webmaster?

Ive asked programs for content before now, most just give me access to the site. They give me content and i make sales with that content. Its a good partnership. Whats wrong with that?

Mark - if its just you, and I can just give you access to the site, directions to the folders, allow you to send the traffic onto my site wherever you want... you are worth GOLD to me.

If, on the other hand, I have to hire an entire dept to build FHG's, free sites, FPA's - if I have to build this tour and that tour and another tour to fit in with YOUR business model, then I have to change the entire way I do business!

Give me 25 relatively focused sponsors who are self sufficient - and I will bend over backwards - But if I have 100's of affiliates, all wanting this and that and the other - than I got NO time to work on my site....

And just like in the real world, why would you want to franchise a product you dont believe in!

I must say though _ I absolutely respect the affiliate webmasters - it is something I could not do. The great ones have spent time, energy, attention - and I admire them. And I want THOSE kinds of webmasters working with me!

**shaun** · 12-08-2006, 12:02 PM

Another thing to keep in mind.... I will get more and better sales if I work WITH Corbin Fisher and Randy Blue and Manifest Men, and other paid sites that share my market base, than if I work with someone who is giving it away for free.

Corbin and Blue and Manifest have traffic that represents customers WITH credit cards and who have already proven to be BUYERS of adult material. A banner or link or members area gallery with convert EASILY into a sale for me. A FHG? I'm thrilled with a 1:10k conversion rate. Which goes down the more affiliates use it!

It isn't that all affiliates are LAZY (like Lee says....), just that they do not really understand how hard the teams at our sites work.... We have 5 sites, we release at least one full length movie a month - and there are only 5 people at our entire company - I don't have TIME to develop YOUR business model too!

So, it isnt that I don't like affiliates (I love them!) - but when I see someone who takes a couple of content sets and makes 22 sales in a couple of days, vs someone who yells at me because he sent me traffic and it didnt convert for him ---- who am I going to pay attention to?

**CorbinFisher_BD** · 12-08-2006, 12:13 PM

Originally Posted by shaun

It isn't that all affiliates are LAZY (like Lee says....), just that they do not really understand how hard the teams at our sites work.... We have 5 sites, we release at least one full length movie a month - and there are only 5 people at our entire company - I don't have TIME to develop YOUR business model too!

So, it isnt that I don't like affiliates (I love them!) - but when I see someone who takes a couple of content sets and makes 22 sales in a couple of days, vs someone who yells at me because he sent me traffic and it didnt convert for him ---- who am I going to pay attention to?

That's totally it, Shaun. And you have to release that full length movie and manage those sites because those are what the customers pay for. The customers. Yet many affiliates expect you to sacrifice service to your customers for sake of service to the affiliates. A happy medium is what's key, but once you start abanding customers for sake of affiliates a real problem arises.

We produce 3 brand new videos per week released between our two sites. We have 24/hour support for our members. We respond to every e-mail we get from members (including feedback emails) and have been in constant contact and correspondence with hundreds of them for years! We tirelessly recruit, schedule, and film the models to deliver the produce - what is being paid for - to our customers. THAT is the priority.

The effort we put in to satisfying and retaining our members will always outweight what's put in to satisfying and retaining our affiliates because happy customers make for happy affiliates. If we can produce material that inspires someone to join and retain, that benefits the affiliates.

**tigermom** · 12-08-2006, 05:17 PM

Ok, I admit I only skimmed through from page 3-4 of this thread. It's late here and this thread managed to piss me off.

To quote Lee: "No, i think pretty much all affiliates are lazy and over-paid." Well, thank you, dear, that's very nice of you to say. I guess it's nice to know that a sponsor I promote thinks that way about me. Same for Corbin Fisher, whom I have joined no more than two weeks ago, right? Brian, kindly tell me why in all our emails between us you never mentioned the fact that you're about to pull the rug from under the work I do? And no, I am probably not sending CF bundles of traffic, so I'm pretty sure I'll be among the cut off 1300 webmasters. If that's the case, why take on new affiliates?

You think my time is worthless or what? I do some RSS feed blogs, but hey, those take time to build too, believe it or not, and mostly to promote. I also do "quality" blogs with my own posts. Know what, why do I even have to apologize to you guys for the way I am promoting your sites or creating traffic? I work hard, ok? my hour is as good as your hour, even if you don't seem to think so. I worked my ass off for over a year now, in adult, to get to the point where I send 5000 clicks a day to sponsors. Guess what, many of those sponsors convert like shit, wasting away my efforts. Maybe they shave, maybe they don't, I don't know. All I know is that when I work in mainstream, I make a whole lot more of money from a similar amount of traffic.

You only see this from your point of view as a program owner, obviously. Try looking it from our side, see how much time and effort is put into this by us. And screw those FHG's and banners and stuff. I never ever asked a sponsor for any of those. All I'm looking for is an honest sponsor with a good product, that actually converts. A sponsor that won't cheat me, won't shave, won't have leaks in his tour. Doesn't sound like much, I know, but not that easy to find, believe it or not.

What can I say, I'm glad I found out about the plans at Corbin Fisher now, before I put up too many links or invested too many hours of work into promoting your sites. I apologize for being just a humble affiliate, a work from home mom who doesn't attend conventions and conferences and is out of the social loop. I just focus on promoting sites honestly and fairly, and with a lot of hard work, see. I just expected a sponsor to be fair enough as to not take on new affiliates without telling them they're about to be kicked out of the program very soon. :thumbsdown:

I have yet to meet an affiliate who makes a bundle of cash without working very hard at it. Are there lazy affiliates/webmasters out there? sure, but they don't end up making much money. Go browse some boards where you have fewer sponsors and more affiliates and you'll see how much affiliates actually make, and how hard it is to make enough money per hour in this biz as an affiliate. I don't usually post harshly, but the tone used by some sponsors in this thread is downright insulting.

**CorbinFisher_BD** · 12-08-2006, 05:21 PM

Originally Posted by tigermom

Same for Corbin Fisher, whom I have joined no more than two weeks ago, right? Brian, kindly tell me why in all our emails between us you never mentioned the fact that you're about to pull the rug from under the work I do?

Because you're a new affiliate who has expressed on here, numerous times, an enthusiasm for college guys and that being something your traffic is interested in as well.

Top performing (regarding volume and sales) affiliates will be retained, but so will affiliates who can likely send quality traffic that is relevant to our site from webmasters who have unique, original and genuine reasons to want to promote particular sites.

So actually I wasn't planning on pulling the rug from under ya. You don't seem like a "throw a banner up and forget it" kind of affiliate. You're obviously a "put some effort in to it, know my traffic and know about sponsors" kind of affiliate.

pocoloco78 · 12-08-2006, 05:52 PM

Originally Posted by CorbinFisher_BD

Because you're a new affiliate who has expressed on here, numerous times, an enthusiasm for college guys and that being something your traffic is interested in as well.

Top performing (regarding volume and sales) affiliates will be retained, but so will affiliates who can likely send quality traffic that is relevant to our site from webmasters who have unique, original and genuine reasons to want to promote particular sites.

So actually I wasn't planning on pulling the rug from under ya. You don't seem like a "throw a banner up and forget it" kind of affiliate. You're obviously a "put some effort in to it, know my traffic and know about sponsors" kind of affiliate.

And how are you planning to judge all your affiliates in this way ? Do you know their traffic sources ? Do you exactly know how they promote your sites ? Do you know what future plans they might have ?

What if tigermom does not as well, as you are now expecting ? You will drop her after some months, when she has put a lot of time into promoting your sites ?

I agree with tigermom; you should have told her about your plans, as it was only two weeks ago!

I am glad this action almost has no effect on my situation, but I can imagine a lot of affiliates are very dissapointed.

**Lee** · 12-08-2006, 06:05 PM

Originally Posted by pocoloco78

Do you know their traffic sources ?

Any affiliate program knows how they are being promoted, i know i check my referral logs at least once a month, sometimes more on Condom Cash, that way i know which affiliates to terminate if they are promoting us on sites with 'questionable' content, if they are promoting us and breaking the TOS, etc etc.

Do you exactly know how they promote your sites ?

Again, any program knows this, just by checking referral logs in addition to referring stats from CCBill.

Do you know what future plans they might have ?

Future plans mean very little to anyone except the affiliate, if someone has been promoting a site for over 12 months and has only racked up 1 sale by using your FHGs, diluting your free content, etc, then that affiliate is more of a problem to a program than a benefit.

As Brian keeps mentioning, affiliates really do feel like they are doing programs a favor by promoting them, based on stats that i can see as a program owner, there are very few affiliates of the total amount that join a program that are of benefit, what i also find interesting is that out of all of the replies so far, the only ones that seem to dislike this 'invite only' scenario are affiliates, whilst those who are in agreement with the concept are program owners, that speaks volumes.

Ultimately, if a program cant remain profitable, it will close down, by narrowing down those unproductive affiliates Brian is ensuring the long term success of his site, and as he also mentioned, allowing him and his team to put much more effort in to producing content and assisting those affiliates that remain with the program in a much more intensive, personal fashion, thus building the working relations between the program and the affiliate and ultimately building up program loyalty which is hat this discussion ultimately comes down to, for both the program owner and the affiliates.

Regards,

Lee

desslock · 12-08-2006, 06:27 PM

Originally Posted by pocoloco78

And how are you planning to judge all your affiliates in this way ? Do you know their traffic sources ? Do you exactly know how they promote your sites ? Do you know what future plans they might have ?

PocoLoco Makes a valid point.... a lot of this sounds very arbitrary.
However there is nothing new about being selective in choosing affiliates. Many mainstream companies on Commission Junction will not accept you unless you have something they are specifically looking for. Affilaites and sponsors on Commission Junction are all rated by one, two, three or four stars... which you get based on sales producted over the past month.

So if I want to join eBay or Home Depot or Palm - I can see where they rate as far as producing sales in the system, vs. others. Vice versa, they can look at me as an affiliate to see where I stand with all the others in CJ.

When I just had one star, many affiliate programs rejected me, so I had to email them and ask again. I'm at the four star level, which really isn't all that difficult I think.... but most sponsots automatically accept you no questions because they can see a record of past performance.

And even then, there are sponsors I've signed up with because I wanted to,
but I haven't built many links to yet.

Steve

**Lee** · 12-08-2006, 06:36 PM

Originally Posted by desslock

When I just had one star, many affiliate programs rejected me, so I had to email them and ask again. I'm at the four star level, which really isn't all that difficult I think.... but most sponsots automatically accept you no questions because they can see a record of past performance.

See, something like that would even work in the adult industry yet, because sponsors very rarely share their information, its chances of taking off are next to nothing.

The added benefit of such a system is that an affiliate could also be flagged as a carder or whatever to some extent also.

We have had loads of sites in the past that 'grade' the sponsors, but ive never seen one that grades the affiliate.

Regards,

Lee

pocoloco78 · 12-08-2006, 06:48 PM

I would love to see such a rating system being introduced to the adult industry. In these examples we are talking about not being accepted in the first place, which is something else than just kicking out the excisting affiliates.

Of course, I also understand your point of view (and CF and maybe others as well), but in my opinion it is just not right to kick out the persons who are working hard to promote your product.

What if a telephone company cuts all the lines of the customers, who did not call for more than 150 minutes the last month ? I know that's a complete other story, but still you can compare it this way

Originally Posted by Lee

See, something like that would even work in the adult industry yet, because sponsors very rarely share their information, its chances of taking off are next to nothing.

The added benefit of such a system is that an affiliate could also be flagged as a carder or whatever to some extent also.

We have had loads of sites in the past that 'grade' the sponsors, but ive never seen one that grades the affiliate.

Regards,

Lee

**Lee** · 12-08-2006, 07:03 PM

Originally Posted by pocoloco78

I would love to see such a rating system being introduced to the adult industry. In these examples we are talking about not being accepted in the first place, which is something else than just kicking out the excisting affiliates.

Of course, I also understand your point of view (and CF and maybe others as well), but in my opinion it is just not right to kick out the persons who are working hard to promote your product.

What if a telephone company cuts all the lines of the customers, who did not call for more than 150 minutes the last month ? I know that's a complete other story, but still you can compare it this way

Id love to see such a system too but it will never happen

I understand everyone elses point also the problem is, i have to look at things from my viewpoint and whilst i agree it may not be the right thing to do, in order for programs to remain profitable, it is the responsible thing to do for those affiliates that do make a lot of money from the program.

To some extent, phone companies are already doing what has been suggested several pages ago, they offer up plans whereby you get a certiain amount of 'call time' a month for a specific cost, moreso with cellphone companies but the mechanism is there, you go over that alloted time, you get charged extra, thats pretty much a sliding scale in my eyes, except in the instance of the phone company, the customer (the affiliate in our example) gets charged extra (whilst the affiliate would get a lower payout).

Regards,

Lee

**CorbinFisher_BD** · 12-08-2006, 07:12 PM

Of course our system is going to be arbitrary and subjective but... it's our business, our brand an image, and money coming off of sales at our site. Some people might find it unfair with regards to the decisions that are made about them, but this is not about fairness. It's about profit for those involved in the process - ourselves and the affiliates we have. Profit is maximized for all of us in this system.

You use that phone company analogy, I'd use a bank/lending analogy. Maybe lending and loans aren't totally fair and despite someone's bad credit they really do have every intention to pay off the loan and will even use the money for a business plan that will succeed and work for them, but the bank is entitled to protect its investment and its money and not take risk it calculates as inappropriate. The scoring systems they use might not be perfect, but they're designed to protect them in the long run over many loans. Not ensure that each and every single individual one was truly more qualified than anyone rejected.