Yes i can, absolutely.Originally Posted by XXXWriterDude
I have never claimed to be an expert at anything and i have certainly never claimed to be better than anyone else in the industry.
I have however claimed that others are dumb as rocks, and you cant argue with facts.
Regards,
Lee
Fabianb:
I would certainly consider attending the Island Gathering. Despite some suggestions, do not try to put on a gay specific event. Dzinerbear accurately points out that the end result of such a show would be seeing the same small group repeatedly.
I think if your marketing of the Island Gathering included one or two specific attractions, perhaps a gay sponsor, seminar or party, that would do the trick.
Getting the combination right would probably give the show something unique to offer, which would certainly add desirability. That would also answer the "What's In It For Me" question asked my potential gay attendees.
I think PrideBucks was a sponsor of the last IG. Maybe this would be a good thread over on Unity360.com
Steve
Steve,
Thanks for the feedback.
Glad someone is a bit informed ;-)
->
You've never come right out and said it, but your words on this site point to the contrary. You have a rather annoying habit of talking down to everyone and trying to put everybody else in their place. And if you don't see that, then you're even more deluded and arrogant than you appear to be.
Well, Lee, we can't ALL be as perfect and all-knowing as you.I have however claimed that others are dumb as rocks, and you cant argue with facts.
**************************************
Ken Knox (aka "Colt Spencer")
Entertainment Journalist/Porn Writer
AIM: KKnox0616 / ICQ: 317380607
www.avnonline.com
www.HollywoodKen.com
www.myspace.com/xxxwriterdude
They do? Well i can hardly help how you interpret my posts now can i?
Like you are trying to do to me right now you mean?You have a rather annoying habit of talking down to everyone and trying to put everybody else in their place.
Regards,
Lee
hmmm... because the straight market has no interest in mingling with gay webmasters? yeah, that would be one reason why. people that call our webmasters, content and members fags aren't really interested in understanding how we make money or do business.
not sure if people who run sites like corbinfisher or randyblue are interested in going to your gathering. it'll be interesting to find out. unlike big str8 programs, they really focus on their sites and their business model is more about retention than most bigger straight programs which are all about popup sales one doesn't share with affiliates and upsells.
and sites like corbinfisher, fratmen, and randyblue (which does have a single popup) are training members to trust porn websites with good quality content and exactly what was promised in the tour being offered in the member area. that means we'll have guys who will buy again with confidence later.
most larger straight programs (i've reviewed over 1000 str8 sites) have sites no one would be thrilled to find themselves inside. sure, the straight programs make a lot of money now but as more and more surfers join a couple of those sites, and feel they are being ripped off, ALL of us will make less money in the long run.
and the owners of those big programs are very smug and sure their way is the ONLY way to do business. it doesn't encourage me to want to mingle.
Well said, basschick, very eloquently indeed.
When I tried to make the same point I was told my criticisms were based in 1998.
Michael
Michael,
It's well known that gay programs generally retain longer. Still some straight programs are able to pay way more and it seems to me that the high payouts per signup only come from gay programs operated by straight operators (topbucks/silvercash etc. etc).
Refering to 12 pops and 10 picture sets is adult in 1998. Point out one big straight program that fits this criteria in 2006/2007?
Basschick:
so your conclusion is that straight operators are not interested in the gay operators?
I happen to know quite a few numbers of larger operators and your argument is that surfers are unhappy. If this is the case it would result in lower retention/member value per ?
More then ever the big guys are working hard on content, they all realize that content is king. More content = higher conversion = more dollars.
Problem with the straight market is a low barrier of entry. $ 750 for ccbill/epoch, some hosting and some content does the trick. Content is more widely available and pretty much any argument there is factor 8.
8* more straight guys, 8* more content, 8* more surfers, 8* more cash hence 8* more clowns and cowboys.
On your own muscle site you use the word 'free' on the tour. After the real free trial was dropped (years ago) numbers showed that 'free tour' would increase conversion.
Reason being: surfers would get confused.
You don't find this deceptive?
Forgive me for talking down to you (as Ken puts it) but if you dont want the advice you are being given, why even bothering asking our opinions in the first place?
You've been given A LOT of good reasons why you shouldnt do a gay only Island Gathering in addition to a lot of other good advice in this thread based on our experiences, yet so far, everyone that has tried to help you has been met with negativity.
Perhaps thats another reason why you shouldnt do a gay only Island Gathering, the people that would have been your best asset in promoting the event you have now managed to turn against you.
Regards,
Lee
Lee,
Pretty much the only real good reason so far has been:
-we have our island, you have yours.
-we don't need straight guys to tell us how to run our biz.
Almost any other argument I've seen so far is more about staying in the own circle then anything else.
Besides the bulk of the negative narrow minded replies I see a few open minded replies which are really thought out.
Once the thread dies out I will for use make a nice list and analyze.
Once studied I probably will come to the conclusion to invite 10-20 guys on our expense to the event and experience it and built the feedback that way.
My reactions aren't negative, just countering some arguments that don't make sense to me. Some replies pretty much say 'straight programs fuck the surfer' but on the other hand you see similar tactics on their own gay sites. Maybe he has a good reason for using this tactic,, hence the reply button.
I can't see why I make enemies here. I am having an open discussion.
15 people are allowed to have 15 different opinions?
->F
i do not use the word free on my tour.
and most large programs' sites suck badly. most don't make their own content - they pay others to shoot it and it mostly looks like it was done in a rush on a budget, and many sites that use the same shooters actually end up with the same models and the same locations. two of our largest programs stream their content at 300k or under and don't update most of their sites. 2 more really large programs are 100% plugin for their non reality sites. a bunch of programs also shoot around 12 episodes and then never update their sites. these things are the norm.
of the large programs, topbucks reality sites are among the very few that update and even a lot of them update only every two weeks, are mostly upsells and plugins - and their standard sites are all plugins.
as i said, i've reviewed over 1000 straight sites, and more of those sites are big programs' sites.
Topbucks, Bubble Butts Galore just popped a pop under when I visited the site, and when I closed the pop-under, I got three more before the chain was exhausted. And TopBucks certainly isn't the only one, I just don't have the time to dig around, but I'm guaranteeing you that if I surfed straight porn for one hour, I could bring you a whole list of offenders.
And why do you think gay sites retain better? We generally don't jerk surfers around and we expend more energy creating quality content. If you look at Gay Blowjob Auditions, which is run by Platinum Bucks, the content you see in the preview area is pretty much what you get. The rest of their member's area is plugins. When I reviewed the site I couldn't find anywhere that they ever update the site. This is an example of what I was talking about with big straight programs mismanaging their sites. Imagine a surfer's reaction if this is the first "gay" porn site they have ever joined. Every other real gay site on the Net now has to overcome this surfer's hesitancy -- he doesn't want to get ripped off again. (Oh and btw, Platinum Bucks also popped a pop-under when I visited their Gay Blowjob Auditions. Their Hardcore Sweethearts, a straight site, also popped a pop under. Granted it wasn't a chain.)
"Basschick:
so your conclusion is that straight operators are not interested in the gay operators?"
They're only interested in finding out why our sites retain so well, but when we try and tell them, they laugh and go on their merry way doing what they always do because afterall they're rolling in millions. And all they need to do to increase sales is shoot 8 sets with chicks fucking miniature porcelain dwarfs and say, "Thousands of pics inside" and whoosh! away they go, thousands more surfers duped into thinking they're getting thousands of pics of chicks fucking porcelain dwarfs.
As far as I can see the straight model runs like this: throw up three new sites a week, take the initial hit, don't update them very much at all, let them run their course, and then, retire them or leave them up to capture all the new traffic that hasn't been duped yet. When the rebilling and new sales drop off enough, kill them completely.
btw fabian, do you work for Klixxx?
Michael
What I'm trying to get you to be a little more welcoming to people who come to your board, Lee. Instead of talking down to everyone and constantly telling them what idiots you think they are, why not actually embrace that they come onto your site and take part in a community you helped to build?
Instead, you're like that big bully on the playground who, when he gets called out for acting like an imbecile, tries to humiliate and intimidate people into silence. The fact that you actually had the nerve to type something like "Does anyone even care about what you write, Ken?"--especially when you exploit my position at AVN every chance you get--only proves how equally insecure AND full of yourself you really are. That's something a 5-year-old would do when they know they're losing.
You have the opportunity with this site--which I totally commend you for creating--to help nurture an industry that looks to you to bring together an increasingly segregated business in one common place, but instead you use it as a vehicle to propagate negativity and self-righteousness, when that's the LAST thing this industry needs.
True, my posts here today may not be the best means to promoting togetherness and unity, but today I just wasn't in the mood to listen to you tell yet another webmaster how stupid you think he is. It's gotten REALLY old, and you've already lost quite a few board participants for that very reason.
Anyway, I said my peace. I have no desire to prove I have the bigger dick. I just wish you would think twice before you would turn your poison pen on people.
**************************************
Ken Knox (aka "Colt Spencer")
Entertainment Journalist/Porn Writer
AIM: KKnox0616 / ICQ: 317380607
www.avnonline.com
www.HollywoodKen.com
www.myspace.com/xxxwriterdude
Ken..
It isnt just me that is saying it though, re-read through this entire thread, so far everyone that has offered Fabian some help has been met with negativity, like we dont know what we're doing.
I just find it strange that we arent the ones going to the straight niche webmasters asking for their help, to improve our ratios or profit margins, in fact, i dont think ive ever seen that happen, instead, its always those in the straight niche coming to us looking for help and advice, and when they get it, it isnt what they want to hear so we must be the 'stupid' ones.
There is a reason so many in the gay marketplace dont have a lot of respect for those working in the straight niche, its because of threads just like this one, ones where we give people the advice they ask for, and they throw it back in our faces like we dont know what we're talking about.
We arent the ones suffering for new surfer joins to our sites, we arent the ones constantly looking to expand in the straight niche, we arent the ones running around calling everyone breeders or other derogatory terms that fit, in fact, we're the ones building loyalty with our consumers, we're the ones that are offering help and advice to those seeking it, we're the ones these straight companies are trying to market to, by not listening to the advice we give them (based on our vast experience in this marketplace) i'm sure even you will agree, THATS STUPID.
Regards,
Lee
Ah yes, I see that you do.
Okay, well let me give you some advice.
Last year or maybe earlier this year, I wrote an article for Klixxx "Gay is Not a Niche" and then I wrote a second article for Klixxx about the hairy man and gay bear niche. Working with Rainey, I was going to develop a series of articles for your magazine -- each month I'd cover a different niche in the gay market. I may have written a third article (second in that series) but I can't remember. The plan was to write a whole year's worth of articles for you.
However, after writing two articles for Klixxx I hadn't heard from any one at your magazine. Rainey thanked me for writing them, and Kathy may have, but I'm not sure about that. But it would have be nice if I had heard from the publisher or the editor. A thank-you note or "great article we really appreciate it," an e-mail, a private message, a phone call, a Klixxx pen in the mail would have been nice. But I heard nothing.
Had any of the higher-ups at Klixxx bother to acknowledge my effort, I would have continued writing for you. As you didn't I figured, "Why am I taking time away from my own projects for this." No one seemed to notice.
I was also moderating Unity 360 and doing a lot of writing in an SEO forum there, but again, no one at Klixxx, with the exception of Kathy ever bothered to say anything. Now, I don't need a pat on the head just for the sake of it, but it is nice, and it's also nice to get feedback about what I'm doing right and wrong, and how I could improve. With work and stress piling up on my end (I was working full-time plus running my own empire), I just walked away from it all. I don't need to continue busting my ass for people who can't be bother to acknowledge me, my work, or my time commitment.
It's too bad because I enjoyed the writing; I used to be a gay journalist so it was good to be writing again. But feeling good doesn't put food on the table.
So before you run off and create a new gay show, you might want to re-examine how your company deals with the people that already help them -- or did. If mine is typical of the Klixxx experience, then I can't imagine it's going to be satisfying for a lot people.
Michael
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