So Has AVN Made A Statement Yet?

[gaybucks_chip]

To be fair, I seriously doubt they had any idea this would backfire as it has. I guess that's what happens when a company relies on one or two people in the industry to give them advice or input instead of opening up to the community as a whole.

Epoch, AVN, and the other sponsors have got to be horrified right about now, and I wouldn't want to be in their shoes, because they are pretty much damned if they do and damned if they don't.

If they'd jumped in on the first day, addressed and resolved the issue in a way that was satisfactory to the community, it would have sucked for them, but at least people would recognize the desire to right the wrong and eventually it would fade from people's consciousness. Not a lot of people remembered that AVN tried to schedule Internext against Phoenix Forum because it was an idea they quickly realized would bomb, and they quickly corrected themselves.

But this... not so much. Saying nothing and letting the fires continue to burn is simply allowing the word to get out to a larger and larger portion of the community... way beyond the readers of GWW... that these companies simply don't care about the community as a whole, and for Epoch in particular, who is going through money like water to try and develop more visibility in the gay community, it's got to be a PR disaster.

It still isn't too late to right the wrongs, but it's not easy, after being silent so long, to suddenly come forth and say "We fucked up, this isn't what we intended, and we want to fix it"... because people will be angry and the anger will be vented.

But it's still the right thing to do.

[CorbinFisher_BD]

We're all assuming it's a fuckup. We're assuming it's something worth apologizing for. We're assuming it's backfired.

What if we're wrong?

What if this all is precisely what they were going for? What if they didn't care one iota about how people reacted but simply wanted to see the Gay Phoenix Forum get cancelled so that they could go ahead with their own show? What if, when they chose the Oct. date, they were intentially seeking out forcing one show out to make room for their own?

If that is the case - which I believe it is - then any apology or statement will be shallow and meaningless.

It is my personal belief that it was the intention of AVN, Cybersocket and Epoch to force about a situation in which the Gay Phoenix Forum would likely get cancelled when they came up with the idea of their own show and chose an Oct. date for it.

So, quite frankly, any statement of "We're sorry this happened" or "We didn't mean for this to happen" or "We just wanted to put together a great show" from any of them will be worthless in my eyes because it'll just be lies, lies, and lies.

Why be so eager to hear a statement from them? So you can have them lie directly to your face?

[gaybucks_chip]

Perhaps I wasn't clear... I absolutely believe it was intentional. I don't for a minute buy the "Oh, it was a coincidence it was in October" idea offered by AVN, or the "Oh, it's common practice to have exclusive arrangements between sponsors and events" argument.

And I don't think anyone is looking for an "Oh, gosh, we're really sorry" because you're totally correct, it would be meaningless. Actions speak louder than words.

From what I've been hearing from the people I've talked to (quite a few at this point), the only thing that would make people happy at this point (and of course, it's probably unlikely, because rarely do companies have the humility to admit when they've fucked up, let alone to actually do something to fix it) would be something like:

"OK, we blew it. We wanted to own the market and thought we could get away with it, but we can see that we're damaging ourselves more by continuing on with this divisive approach. We don't want to alienate the gay community any further than we already have, and we realize that's exactly what we've done. So we are committed to working with CCBill to ensure that GPF gets rescheduled for spring, we will support it fully, and we will welcome support from any organization that wishes to work together to make this fall event and the spring GPF event successful and inviting to everyone."

The means are there to fix this problem. The question is, do the companies involved give a shit about anyone other than themselves? Do they really still feel they can just sit and let this situation continue to fester without doing further damage to their reputations?

[Lee]

The question is, do the companies involved give a shit about anyone other than themselves? Do they really still feel they can just sit and let this situation continue to fester without doing further damage to their reputations?

I really dont think they have any interest in anyone but themselves with this and im pretty certain that they are going to continue letting this fester and fester, for the simple fact they know they have fucked up and they dont want to be seen as backing down.... Because that would mean they were wrong, and we cant have that

The one thing i really dont think that whole group is understanding right now though is why everyone is pissed at them, im pretty sure they felt they could pretty much do anything and get away with it.... I guess getting the Gay Phoenix Forum cancelled was the straw that broke the camels back for many on the gay side of the business.

Regards,

Lee

[OffshoreGayPorn]

Hello all,

I will make this comment short and sweet. Originally, the Gay Phx Forum was something that Ron Cadwell and I discussed and decided to do nearly a year before the event occurred. Then Cybersocket staff and CCbill Staff worked together to bring in additional sponsors, we moved our award show, and we planned the event together.

During that time many things on the overall business landscape shifted. The Gay Phoenix Forum was an amazing event. Sherri and the rest of the CCBill staff did an amazing job. We find no fault with CCBill, it's handling of the event, or it's staff.

However, CCBill, and the other presenting sponsors of the Gay Phoenix Forum, which included Epoch Billing, could not come to an agreement about the format, structure, or date and time for a follow up event. In the end the decision to have an event in LA was made far in advance of CCBill making a formal announcement of the date for a follow up event, or informing the presenting sponsors of their intent to produce a second event. In fact, it was indicated to us immediately after the event that it was highly likely that a follow up event might not occur.

By the time CCBill decided they would indeed produce a second GPF many of the original presenting sponsors of the Gay Phx Forum had already become committed to an LA Gay Webmaster event. This includes Cybersocket.

We are sorry that it appears to be the product of backroom deals etc. It really is not that. It is that timing is never perfect, and there are personality conflicts.

In the end the intention is to support an event that will be open, accepting, and good for our larger business environment. Most of the sponsors of the Gay Phx Forum will be involved one way or another in the LA event.

Thanks for allowing me the opportunity to post here. I hope I have answered some questions. If anyone has any further questions please email them to me directly I would be glad to have a private conversation.

323-650-9906 x23
Morgan Sommer

[Epoch Holly]

I don't really want to get into all of this discussion but I will give NakedSword's point. We were literally ignored at the Gay Phoenix Forum except by Sherri, when we couldn't go to a CC Bill dinner that was scheduled after the Epoch one had already been planned we were yelled at! And this year noone at CC BIll has asked us to sponsor the Phoenix Forum something we have done the last several years! I have recently started talking to Sean and he and I will sit down and talk ... And atleast he has made an effort for the rest of the CC Bill staff ignores us, yells at us or forgets our names!
I don't believe the people at Epoch who are good people and who spent more $$ sponsoring gay events including all CC Bill ones are out just for themselves or to hurt people.... And I also don't believe that about Cybersocket either! I think we should all try to see the whole story and not the one that is most controversial to talk about on a board!

[DougieFresh]

OMG

Can you believe this.. I cannot believe how quickly my AOE post was taken down.. lets not contriubute to censorship.. is soooo gross...

[D-Rock]

03-21-2007 05:18 PM
DougieFresh OMG

Can you believe this.. I cannot believe how quickly my AOE post was taken down.. lets not contriubute to censorship.. is soooo gross...

Ya what's up with that? Removing a thread for no good reason? Seems shady business to me.

[Lee]

Ya what's up with that? Removing a thread for no good reason? Seems shady business to me.

Then you wont be wanting your banner spot on GWW next month i take it?

Ill cancel this ad contract like we did the last one for non-payment, no biggie D.

After all, you dont want to be seen as being promoted somewhere with 'shady business' practices.

For the record, the thread was a spam, and it was treated as such.

Regards,

Lee

[desslock]

Allow me to corroborate Naked Sword/Holly's above comments.

First some disclosure: let me first say that I'm happy with supporting all the shows that I can, and that I've never been a sponsor or "insider" in this process.

That said.... I can say that many of the sponsors of the Gay Phoenix Forum were unhappy with last Fall's show. Look at Holly's above comments... now I can't presume that these sponsors' feelings were legitimate, unfair, fair, unreasonable or reasonable. I'm not them

I'm just stating a matter of fact. Many of them were unhappy.

I didn't feel that way, but then I didn't pony up thousands of dollars.

So that being said, I can't say I'm surprised that they would seek an alternative venue. Now I think people are irate because the entire move looks mean. Maybe it is. But this is business. And I feel safe in also saying that ccBill is just as thick skinned as all the other parties involved.

These are enterprises competing here. Everyone will get over it, process it, and hopefully everyone will be better afterwards.

Steve

[D-Rock]

Sure L, if you want to throw money down the drain that's your choice.

I think your getting a little to excited about this.

Best,
Derrick

[Lee]

Sure L, if you want to throw money down the drain that's your choice.

I think your getting a little to excited about this.

Best,
Derrick

You tell me, you either want to be seen to be promoted somewhere with 'shady' practices or you dont, if you feel Pythons reputation shouldnt be tarnished by these same 'shady' practices you accuse us of, then let me know and ill cancel your ad, its no big deal for me

Regards,

Lee

[gaybucks_chip]

Hello all,
In the end the decision to have an event in LA was made far in advance of CCBill making a formal announcement of the date for a follow up event, or informing the presenting sponsors of their intent to produce a second event.

VERY different from what we were told. CCBill made clear to any sponsor who asked (and anyone else) that the event would definitely be happening, it was only a question of finding a hotel that worked for the anticipated increase in attendance.

Producing two events drawing on the same or similar audience is fine, and either both shows will be successful, or the better show will win out based on the participation of the community as a whole. That's capitalism and healthy competition.

But scheduling a new event 3 weeks from an already established event is very different. That is not an action intended to foster unity within the community, regardless of how hard people try to explain it away.

I guess my expectations were too high as to what sort of response could be forthcoming. Not really surprised, but still disappointed.

[Dzinerbear]

In the end the decision to have an event in LA was made far in advance of CCBill making a formal announcement of the date for a follow up event, or informing the presenting sponsors of their intent to produce a second event. In fact, it was indicated to us immediately after the event that it was highly likely that a follow up event might not occur.

Morgan, give me a break. That would be like me launching an LA gay magazine a week before the next issue of Cybersocket hit the streets, and then, saying that I wasn't sure that Cybersocket was going to publish "next" month. Everyone in the biz knows when the Phoenix Forum is, they don't even have to ask. And since the Gay Forum was so successful, there'd be no reason for anyone to think that there wouldn't be another one.

The only thing that I will give you is with Patrick Curran leaving ccbill that some people might have wondered what's happening to the next show because it was viewed as "his" baby. But I was still putting my money in the bank to head their in October.

Holly:

I had to giggle at your comment "We were literally ignored at the Gay Phoenix Forum except by Sherri..." I don't know what happened, maybe you were snubbed, I wasn't there.

But Holly the last time you and I were at a conference together was in March 2006 at the Phoenix Forum. You spent the entire show flitting past me totally oblivious to the fact that we were supposed to be meeting in the courtyard for a meeting you scheduled. I think you didn't show up for two or three meetings with me. And at times when we were supposed to be meeting, I'd see you running around with the gang. And then, the next time I'd see you: "Oh when can we get together. I really want to talk to you."

And Holly, it wasn't just me. I had so many people that show ask me, "What's up with Holly?"

So I don't know, but maybe this kind of behaviour had something to do with you being ignored. Or maybe I'm completely off-base.

Michael

[Epoch Holly]

Morgan, give me a break. That would be like me launching an LA gay magazine a week before the next issue of Cybersocket hit the streets, and then, saying that I wasn't sure that Cybersocket was going to publish "next" month. Everyone in the biz knows when the Phoenix Forum is, they don't even have to ask. And since the Gay Forum was so successful, there'd be no reason for anyone to think that there wouldn't be another one.

The only thing that I will give you is with Patrick Curran leaving ccbill that some people might have wondered what's happening to the next show because it was viewed as "his" baby. But I was still putting my money in the bank to head their in October.

Holly:

I had to giggle at your comment "We were literally ignored at the Gay Phoenix Forum except by Sherri..." I don't know what happened, maybe you were snubbed, I wasn't there.

But Holly the last time you and I were at a conference together was in March 2006 at the Phoenix Forum. You spent the entire show flitting past me totally oblivious to the fact that we were supposed to be meeting in the courtyard for a meeting you scheduled. I think you didn't show up for two or three meetings with me. And at times when we were supposed to be meeting, I'd see you running around with the gang. And then, the next time I'd see you: "Oh when can we get together. I really want to talk to you."

And Holly, it wasn't just me. I had so many people that show ask me, "What's up with Holly?"

So I don't know, but maybe this kind of behaviour had something to do with you being ignored. Or maybe I'm completely off-base.

Michael

I have always respected you and you and I have always talked about issues in private but now it seems you would like to here! Fine! I don't really care who was wondering what is up with Holly...But it is nice to be so popular that everyone asks about me! Everyone in our business talks about everyone... So I don't listen... I did not attack you personally or CC Bill I was simply giving NakedSword's pov and all of NS not just my own....
We did have our meeting funny how people forget... But again this issue is supposed to be about AVN, CC BIll and the shows if you would like to chat with me about how you think I ignored you we can do so on AIM or via phone... I am just here to give another pov then jump on the bandwagon that Epoch and Cybersocket don't care and are out to ruin CC Bill by having another show! END of Story!