lee,
like i said, "throw the mud at me now to take attention away from your own incongruous behaviour."
for the record, you directly accused morgan of being a liar. directly - it's not a question of "if" you did it. just apologize straight up.
lee,
like i said, "throw the mud at me now to take attention away from your own incongruous behaviour."
for the record, you directly accused morgan of being a liar. directly - it's not a question of "if" you did it. just apologize straight up.
Karl,
Im sorry for calling Morgan a liar, and that BedFellow was sold out from underneath you without your knowledge, you at least deserve recognition for how you shaped BedFellow the last couple of years.
Now, back on topic, why did Morgan, Epoch and AVN decide to fuck CCBill over by directly scheduling a show at the same time they knew that CCBill were planning the Gay Phoenix Forum?
We still havent had any answer to this simple question yet from anyone involved.
I mean if the sponsors were not unhappy about the way the Gay Phoenix Forum was handled, as Morgan has clearly stated, what possible reason could there be to fuck over CCBill who has been a steady supporter of the gay industry for years.
Again, we can keep throwing insults back and forth all night but it isnt going to answer the question lots of people want to know the answer to.
Why did AVN, Epoch and Cybersocket deliberately fuck over CCBill even when they were happy with how CCBill handled the Gay Phoenix Forum, or is that how this group of companies treats people they are 'happy' with?
Regards,
Lee
Personal attacks don't help anyone, regardless of who threw the first volley or what was said; those issues should be resolved via private email, and if public apologies are necessary, they can be made after the issues have been resolved privately. That's better for everyone and reduces noise on GWW.
I would like to draw attention to what I think is the original point being made... that so many people were disappointed by the cancellation of Gay Phoenix Forum, and that this was a completely needless occurrence, caused solely by the desire of one group to crush what a different group was trying to do.
I expect to see this sort of macho bravado in the straight (non-porn) world, but as adult webmasters in general, and gay adult webmasters in particular, people should know better. We are already a double minority group. As adult webmasters, we are usually not appreciated or supported by our legislators, the religious right, and many other groups, and even among the straight adult community, many are hostile, either openly or covertly, to what we do. So the last thing anyone in our industry should be doing is working against the overall good of the community. It's not just the nice and right thing to do, it's the thing that's best for business. If we work together and help each other, we ALL benefit, become more profitable, and grow faster.
Planning one show in direct competition, within the same month, to another, already established show is very clearly an act of aggression and divisiveness, regardless of any claims to the contrary. The result can only be increased divisiveness within the industry... something that is the absolute LAST thing this industry needs.
The notion that somehow CCBill hadn't committed for 2007 is simply not true. The notion that there were not adequate sponsors to support GPF is also not true; as everyone in this thread has acknowledged, all of the sponsors and nearly 100% of the attendees were happy with the show, and all that I spoke with (which is a majority of the sponsors) were planning to support it in 2007... until the backdoor dealing started happening, and then, magically, sponsors started pulling out.
The gay adult industry is probably big enough to support two shows, but not when this market is just developing. Clearly, there was absolutely no *need* to schedule one against the other, unless it was a self-centered need not reflective of the desires and wants of the community as a whole.
People and/or organizations who care about the industry as a whole, and not their own selfish interests, could have chosen to support *everyone* within the community, by supporting the CCBill event in October, and still have had a second event, perhaps in the spring or early summer.
This thread has been open for weeks. If the intentions of the people now posting were truly to create unity and cooperation in the community, everyone that is suddenly coming out of the woodwork to post now could have posted the day after CCBill made its announcement, and made it clear that they wished to work to support the community as a whole.
But this didn't happen. What happened instead was deafening silence from all of the parties involved in the Epoch/AVN event, and only now, after it's clear that the community's outrage isn't going to just go away, is somebody saying something. But really, none of the comments or explanations offered even address the issue of what's best for the community at large; it's "these particular sponsors couldn't make a deal with CCBill" or "Oh, it was a coincidence we scheduled it when we did" or "Oh, some of the big players had personality conflicts"... the sort of petty thing that should never get in the way of cooperation for the benefit of the community.
People who know me and have talked to me probably realize that I do my best to be a straight shooter, and I don't believe in taking "sides" because, really, there should BE no "sides" to take in this sort of situation. I have respect for every person that's posted in this thread, and at the same time, I probably have some differences of viewpoint with just about everyone who has posted. Yet at the end of the day, I can enjoy spending time with everyone in this thread (at least, the ones I've met), and I enjoy finding ways to work together that are mutually beneficial for everyone.
Based on the current flow of the conversation in this thread, and assuming that everyone does genuinely want what's best for the community as a whole (which also translates to what is best for each of us individually in the long run), I think we're headed in the wrong direction. Nothing good can come from that; people will be pissed at each other, more factions will be created, many people will feel forced to "side" with one camp or the other.
There isn't a single person or company that benefits from divisiveness. But in order to change things, people have to admit that there's an issue, and commit to working to resolve it.
That is what I have hoped since the first announcement from CCBill. It's still possible, but only if the sniping and the disingenuous statements on all sides stop.
I'm interested in finding a solution that truly benefits everyone and respects the needs of all. I hope that the others posting here (and everyone else in the community) shares this desire and will also commit to working toward a solution that unites rather than divides.
As Chip has restated. If anyone would like to have a private, non-threatening, and to the point conversation with me, the invitation is open.
So you basically want to keep your reasons for getting the Gay Phoenix Forum cancelled private?Originally Posted by OffshoreGayPorn
Why? It doesnt just affect you and CCBill, it affects the whole gay webmaster community, why cant you tell us publicly your reasons (and those of Epoch/AVN) for direcly competing with, and getting the Gay Phoenix Forum cancelled?
Its a matter not just for people behind closed doors, but everyone in the industry.
CCBill made a public statement as to why they cancelled the show, people now want to know why your group felt the need to directly compete with the Gay Phoenix Forum using the underhanded tactics you used, i dont think it is to much of the gay webmaster community to ask that you let us know publicly your reasons for what you did.
Regards,
Lee
I have already made a public statement on behalf of Cybersocket. It is not my place to answer for other companies. I have answered as to our motivations and intentions. If that is unacceptable to a few individuals at this board, so be it. As I have stated twice before. Anyone, including you Lee, are welcome to call me privately and discuss this in a rational and sane manner. Cybersocket will not be participating in this thread from this point forward.
Wow.
So - we open a thread, demanding an explanation from someone in the know.
We recieve one.
And instead of considering the response, we attack the responder and call him a liar.
And it kind of becomes clear why Epoch and GayVN have just kept thier mouths shut, because apparently no explanation is acceptable.
This is a really awful thread to read. Can we just stop it now?
But we didnt.
We got a statement, passing the blame on to CCBill for not being able to agree on a format with some other companies.
The question as to why this group of individuals decided, in backrooms, to directly compete with the Gay Phoenix Forum, even though they were by all accounts, happy with how the show was being operated, hasnt been answered.
The answer to many of us is clear, but these companies just dont have the balls to come right out and say it, they wanted to get the Gay Phoenix Forum cancelled to further their own needs, rather than the needs of the gay adult industry.
You can at least respect someone who tells it like it is, shying away from this discussion for almost 2 weeks then suddenly coming out, in force and not really answering any of the questions being asked just doesnt cut it.
These companies were very public in announcing their 'show' yet when the tough questions started to get asked, nobody wanted to answer them publicly.. Instead, almost 2 weeks later, they tell us that they want to answer them behind closed doors.
I just dont see what the big deal is with the main companies involved (Cybersocket, Epoch, AVN) in getting the Gay Phoenix Forum cancelled just coming right out and saying they only launched their show in October to make money and to profit off the success of the Gay Phoenix Forum and off the gay webmaster community, to the detriment of the gay webmaster community but to their benefit.
Regards,
Lee
I have no motivation in this discussion either way, but the most emotional community members have tried to frame the discussion in their own contentious way, which evidently isn't going to get an answer any faster, and isn't surprising.
So had folks considered coming at it differently maybe things would be different. Whether it's the answers people want to hear or not, at least we'd have something to judge them on (i.e. whether we believe them or not is our own perogative), rather than passing judgement on nebulous silence because they chose not to engage in a dialog of loaded questions fueled by presuppositions.
$0.02
As far as I can see, Lee, you are the only one throwing insults around, as per your usual M.O. whenever someone calls you on your crap.
Wanting to know answers to certain questions does not give you license to attack people and call them "scumbags" or to resort to childish, underhanded maneuvers like pointing out how someone's company might have been sold out from underneath them just to embarrass or humiliate them publicly. Why don't you act like an ADULT for a change, and not a 5-year-old bully on a playground who doesn't have anything else in his arsenal besides insults and put-downs? Or is that honestly all you have in your bag of tricks?
You're supposed to be somebody that others in this industry can look up to and respect, Lee, yet the example you give them to follow is one of bitterness, contempt, arrogance, and self-righteousness. You accuse companies of dividing the industry, yet you never turn the mirror on your own actions and examine just how much you yourself are contributing to everything that is wrong about this business. You're not serving any "greater good" as you often like to say. In fact, you're not serving anybody but yourself, and that's truly sad.
And yet, you wonder why nobody from AVN or Epoch comes on here to respond to this thread or the other one! Sheesh! Why would anybody subject themselves to your endless self-righteousness and your tireless tirades against, well, everyone? It's exactly like I said in the other thread. You don't CARE what anybody has to say about what REALLY happened, because you will find some way to use the shit you've heard in heresay to shoot them down and act like you know the whole story.
You exhaust me, Lee. In fact, you exhaust a lot of people. And you should honestly be ashamed of yourself.
I cannot speak on behalf of my bosses at AVN and AVN Online. But I can tell you that they are NOT scumbags, as you outright called them. If they were, I wouldn't still be working here after three years. They are great guys who would bend over backwards to help someone just getting started in this industry, regardless of whether they were straight or gay, and that's the truth. I know that doesn't answer a lot of the questions put forth here, and for that I apologize. It's just not my place to speak for them.
However, I can also tell you that a lot of what has been said in this thread and in the other one is nothing but heresay, conjecture and assumptions. In fact, as Karl rightly pointed out, this whole thread stinks of the Salem witch trials, in which an entire community of people with "good intentions" got together and worked themselves into a frenzy and attacked and hurt a lot of people who weren't deserving of it. Everyone loves to attack AVN for being a for-profit company who charges admission to our shows--as if such a thing were inconceivable in this industry of all industries. Oh, my God. We want to make money by putting on shows that have true educational and networking value and provide a forum in which everyone can benefit. What awful, horrible people we are! We've become everyone's favorite punching bag--even though, as I've pointed out many times, MANY of you have benefited from our publications and especially from my tenure here. And it's really discouraging to see so many of you that I've helped out joining in on this little bitterness bandwagon. Sad. How very, very sad.
You know, nobody raised any eyebrows when Xbiz put on their Hollywood Conference just 3 weeks after our January Internext show. I didn't see any of you people screaming out or boycotting their show for "unfair competition" or dividing the industry. Yet as soon as AVN schedules a show during a time that coincides with that of another gay-specific show, all the gloves come off. Where's the disconnect here?
Anyway, this has gone on too long. I told myself I wouldn't respond to this thread--that I wouldn't stoop to the same level of hostility and negativity that has become the standard behavior on this board--hostility and negativity that you openly encourage and perpetuate, Lee, then turn around and blame everyone else for being the "scumbags." I don't want to fan any of those flames or further contribute to such senseless displays of unhealthy ego. But it's hard to sit here and read through this crap and not say anything. However, I've actually done a pretty good job of staying away from GWW for the past week or so. Looks like I'll have to try harder to keep up with that.
I've said my peace, and I'm moving on. I won't be posting in this thread again. I have REAL WORK to do.
**************************************
Ken Knox (aka "Colt Spencer")
Entertainment Journalist/Porn Writer
AIM: KKnox0616 / ICQ: 317380607
www.avnonline.com
www.HollywoodKen.com
www.myspace.com/xxxwriterdude
In the hopes to get some answers to questions instead of diversionary tactics to shift the flow of the discussion....
Now that we know the previous sponsors, AVN, Cybersocket and Epoch werent unhappy with the Gay Phoenix Forum, why then did that group together in a collaborative effort decide to launch their own show when it was perfectly clear everyone was happy with the status quo of the Gay Phoenix Forum?
What possible reasons could this group have to want to screw the gay side of the industry over other than lining their own pockets at the expense of those webmasters who would have liked to attend this years Gay Phoenix Forum?
Why also did they then decide to directly compete with the Gay Pheonix Forum event in October, even though apparently several people heavily involved in this new show knew that CCBill would be holding another event this year at the same time?
Why was a non-compete added to the show this group were planning so that CCBill, a company that has openly accepted anyone as a sponsor to both the Phoenix Forum and the Gay Phoenix Forum, including Epoch, were unable to sponsor the event?
It could be argued that you deliberatly went out of your way to fuck CCBill or the gay webmaster community as a whole over for reasons of sheer greed.... Hopefully we can get a solid explanation that doesnt include this argument, or at least that doesnt profess greed was the primary reason for the actions this group of companies took.
Regards,
Lee
But see, Lee - it seems to me unless they say JUST THAT (hey - we were out to fvck ccbill) - no other answer is acceptable.
Sure - I may be rebecca of sunny brook farms here... but MOST people dont make decisions based on stuff like "Lets Screw GPF (insert competitors name)"
If Morgan's story is true, CCbill dithered and dallyed about dates, and maybe even had some internal discussions on whether to do the October show at all. One year does not a tradition make, and shows are expensive and an immense amount of work.
So, GayVN and Epoch say "well, make up your minds, would ya" - and then decide to go ahead and schedule when it would be good for them. October is the best month of the year in LA.
Now, since neither one of us was there.... isn't it just as likely that a series of events that led to this, as it was a purposeful attempt to hurt CCbill or anyone else?
As some one else on this thread said, its business. But plain old fallible people are the ones running the business, and people make mistakes - misjudgement - have conflicts; this doesnt a conspiracy make.
Finally - honestly, in 5 years will this REALLY matter to you? In not, why are we putting so much energy here.
If you talk to the principles, and find out that this was all really sleazy, use that to guide your billing decsions... but most likely, this was just one of those things that happen in business.
I LIKE the people at Epochsystem. I LIKE the folks I work with at CCbill. I like the folks at GayVN - at all these companies, I have always been treated well. I'm sorry they had a spat. I hope they shake hands and stay friends. But unless we were in the room at the time, we have NO idea what really happened here.
xxxwriterdude:
for the record, bedfellow was neither sold out from underneath me nor was it sold. that was nothing more than lee stating something and allowing conjecture to create a lie without him having to take responsibility with an actionable statement.
you see he's trying to embarrass me for something that hasn't even happened. it's called a pot shot but that one missed the mark entirely. i am still (as i have always been) a partner in bedfellow.com - nothing on that front has changed. this is a fact. sorry to burst your bubble on that one, lee.
it's off topic but worth mentioning.
karl
Lee attempts to make an art form out of spreading flat out lies about people without doing it in a way that would allow for an actionable response by those he's chosen to badmouth on any given day.
The fact that Lee, who is probably more damaging to the gay side of the adult industry than just about anybody else in it, has been egging this thread along, is more than laughable.
Personally, I think he's grown too comfortable with the position his board currently has, and feels that he's fireproof because of it. Any smart business man will tell you, that's exactly what gets companies into trouble.
I have a feeling the future will show Lee that badmouthing everyone in an industry you call yourself a member of, isn't the best way to succeed in said industry over the long term.
- John Paul
I did have a great time at the Forum as all my friends were there.... Was I happy with the treatment we got as a sponsor NO! Two different issues and I also heard other sponsors say they were not happy as well! But that is not the issue.... The issue seems to be that people are upset about this new show for some reason.... I guess Webmaster Access and Xbiz could have had the same fight as their shows were the same week. But I didn't see this drama or fighting over it on the boards.... Shows come and go all the time! Lets just all go to the ones we want and avoid the ones we dont want too... Why is there so much drama and discussion?
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