So Has AVN Made A Statement Yet?

[XXXWriterDude]

I've avoided posting in this thread too.

Can someone tell me why its such a big deal that Epoch made an exclusive advertising agreement? Yeah that means that ccbill, netbilling and any other billing processor can't be a sponsor, but it doesn't mean they can't attend. I guarantee if this happened in any other way, it would have been hailed as a good business strategy. If a company is willing to pay the money for exclusivity, heck all the more power to em!!!

FINALLY! Someone who gets it! Business is business, and anybody here who has ever said "It's just business" at any time really doesn't have any right to be running around calling names at all. Everybody in this business makes shrewd business decisions based on what is best for THEIR bottom line, and for them to expect anything different from others is, to me, ludicrously hypocritical. And just because a company agrees to grant another company a non-compete clause doesn't mean they care any less about the community. It just means they made a smart business move. (NOTE: I'm not speaking specifically about any alleged deals between AVN and Epoch here, because, honestly, I don't know enough about the specific arrangements of our deal to confirm or deny this. Again, I'm just a lowly writer.)

I'm sorry, folks, but all this "We're different b/cuz we're gay" nonsense needs to stop, because it's just not true. Gay business gets done the same way that all other business gets done. You can't just trot out the "gay unity" card and play it whenever it's most convenient for you--or whenever your company isn't the one whose business practices are being questioned. Every business has, at one time or another, made shrewd business arrangements with other companies, and every one of them has had to weather some of the same criticisms. In the end, AVN will be all the stronger for dealing with this situation in a mature way.

The way i see it there are two different issues.

1. AVN choosing the end of October for their forum. This somehow bumped out the Gay Phoenix forum when the last i heard ccbill was looking at the end of September, if at all.

Look, the truth is that we chose the time that best suited our show, end of story. We weighed several factors in this, including when other shows were going on throughout the entire year (not just in October) and what time of the year is the best time for people to visit Los Angeles. Of course we were aware that there was another show going on around the same time that we were planning our show. Duh! But, we were also on the phone talking to CCBill the entire time attempting to work it out so that both of our shows could benefit. There were talks of moving the show dates of both shows around, and at some point in time, those conversations ended--and we announced our show date. CCBill was not blind-sided, nor were there EVER any malicious intentions on AVN's part. To suggest anything to the contrary is simply ludicrous. Anyone who was at last week's Phoenix Forum could plainly see how strong AVN's relationship with CCBill remains. We were a huge sponsor of the show, and the "Phonenix Forum Daily" was a HUGE success. Plain and simple, if there are underlying motives behind the scheduling of our GAYVN Retreat, they aren't AVN's.

2. Epoch making an exclusive advertising agreement which doesn't prevent ccbill from attending. In all a good business strategy. I'm sorry the ravings about this issue is pathetic nonsense.

You rock!

Hey I like ccbill. I like epoch. Both companies have always treated us well. The way i see it this couldn't have worked out better for ccbill. 1. They don't have to hold the gay phx forum which I do believe they didn't want to do again. 2. They make epoch look like the bad guys.

Dance puppets dance!

Love this. Personally, I think CCBill was brilliant in how they handled this. And that's all I'm going to say about it.

The thing that has really disturbed me about this whole mess is the ridiculously overblown statements about "community" that have been tossed around here. People ranting and raving while carrying torches, making egregiuosly false accusations, all while using "unity" as their excuse for doing so. Disgusting. Because the truth is... if you want unity you happen, you have to practice it YOURSELF. You can't demand that others play by the rules if you aren't providing them with an example as well. Unity only comes through EVERYBODY working toward the goal, and what I've seen on this board is the exact opposite of unity. People posting seriously slanderous messages based upon nothing but conjecture, hearsay and rumors! RUMORS! "I heard from so-and-so that..." or "Whatshisname from whatsthatplace told me that..." And when you post "authoritative" messages inferring that you know what's going on behind closed doors (when, in fact, you know diddly squat about what REALLY happened), you force people to take sides--and that is what ultimately divides the community, not strategically sound business moves on the part of companies who have proven their merit in the industry time and time again.

I thought the main reason we started our own message boards was because we wanted to get away from all the name-calling and drama found on the other boards. I thought the whole purpose of community was to work together to establish a unified whole. I thought community was about the absence of judgment and intolerance. Sadly, these are not things that I am finding as I make my way through today’s gay webmaster world, and it's a very eye-opening experience to me. Indeed, if this thread has proven anything, it's that we are EXACTLY like everybody else in this business. Why don't we just call this board G-GFY?

As I said before, unity begins at home, and if you aren’t observing its guidelines, then frankly, you don’t deserve to be included in its benefits.

[gaybucks_chip]

Everybody in this business makes shrewd business decisions based on what is best for THEIR bottom line, and for them to expect anything different from others is, to me, ludicrously hypocritical.

One can be a shrewd business operator AND work in ways that benefit the community as a whole, particularly in this business. There is a whole school of thought about this style of doing business, including some MBA programs that focus on that style of doing business, and many companies are discovering this. It requires a different mindset than most are used to, but to say it's ludicrous and hypocritical is not an accurate statement.

I'm sorry, folks, but all this "We're different b/cuz we're gay" nonsense needs to stop, because it's just not true.

I don't know who's said that. I've said that the gay adult community is a double minority and should, for the health of the community, make more effort to work together, but I've never said we're *different*, just that we, as a community, would be more successful if we band together rather than splinter.

In the end, AVN will be all the stronger for dealing with this situation in a mature way.

The mature way being to try to pretend that people aren't concerned, so you can ignore the issue and hope it will go away?

Look, the truth is that we chose the time that best suited our show, end of story.

And I have some beautiful oceanfront property in Arizona. :fool:

Besides, you've already said you don't speak for AVN, and that there were "other factors", at work, and there are some indicators that AVN was not even the primary decisionmaker on the date issue.

CCBill was not blind-sided, nor were there EVER any malicious intentions on AVN's part. To suggest anything to the contrary is simply ludicrous.

But wait, you keep saying you don't represent AVN's opinion. Has that changed?

Plain and simple, if there are underlying motives behind the scheduling of our GAYVN Retreat, they aren't AVN's.

That I am willing to believe.

Personally, I think CCBill was brilliant in how they handled this. And that's all I'm going to say about it.

I am also willing to believe this. But the parties who could verify that are being silent about it.

the truth is... if you want unity you happen, you have to practice it YOURSELF. You can't demand that others play by the rules if you aren't providing them with an example as well. Unity only comes through EVERYBODY working toward the goal.

Read back to the beginning of the threads, after the CCBill announcement. Several people were saying "Let's see what happens. Hopefully, Epoch and AVN will immediately work with CCBill and this could be OK for everyone."

Then, 2 weeks of silence from the parties most able to do something about unity.

It was the inaction of the people in a position to create unity that caused the uproar.

And when you post "authoritative" messages inferring that you know what's going on behind closed doors (when, in fact, you know diddly squat about what REALLY happened), you force people to take sides

Again, with few exceptions, people started posting initially to get answers. When none were forthcoming for a lengthy period, people started posting information from whatever sources were available, generally stated as such, because of a dearth of information from the very parties that would have the facts to present. Still, almost no such facts have been offered, and the ones that have strain credulity.

I thought the whole purpose of community was to work together to establish a unified whole. I thought community was about the absence of judgment and intolerance.

People can have healthy disagreements on issues and still share the same community with others. I have strong views on barebacking, and so do Tony and Cam. We clearly have different views, but I still respect them and appreciate their viewpoints and their right to express them. There are a bazillion other examples.

What's really going on here is not lack of community. It's that many in the community DO want to work together, DO want to understand the full picture, DO want everything to work out to everyone's advantage. If the parties that haven't addressed the issue that clearly concerns a number of people in the community want to solve the problem, all they need to do is communicate about it.

Nearly every problem on the planet could be solved if people came with open hearts and a genuine desire to work together for everyone's best benefit. This situation is no exception.

I do not like conflict, I do not like splintering, and I do not like making people angry, or being angry at others. I (and several others) have expressed willingness to discuss the issue, privately or publicly, get past the PR and spin, understand the truth (to the extent that there *is* a single truth, which may not be the case) and ensure that the information is disseminated as clearly as possible, without spin, and as much as possible, without any bias. Yet I haven't heard a word from anyone on the issue, and as far as I know, neither has anyone else who's made a similar offer.

This problem (or perceived problem, depending on your viewpoint) can be solved. It's up to the people who have been silent and/or disingenuous (and I do not single ANYONE out; this could include any of the players involved, or none at all) to open the doors and bring honest communication to the issue so it can be resolved. I'm confident that if everyone truly does desire unity within the community, it's possible, but it does require that everyone be willing to come to bat and work toward that goal.

[Xstr8guy]

There sure is a lot of words in this thread.

[CorbinFisher_BD]

Everyone knows that October is the only month where there's decent weather in Southern California

[desslock]

One can be a shrewd business operator AND work in ways that benefit the community as a whole, particularly in this business. There is a whole school of thought about this style of doing business, including some MBA programs that focus on that style of doing business, and many companies are discovering this. It requires a different mindset than most are used to, but to say it's ludicrous and hypocritical is not an accurate statement.

Well in theory, business owners can operate under any theory.

This is a perfect example of how when there are even just two firms in an industry, they will almost always be driven towards competitive behaviour, as opposed to collusion.

Steve

[basschick]

no, it's an example of how THESE PARTICULAR firms do it. i've seen small and large industries benefit by firms working together just fine.

This is a perfect example of how when there are even just two firms in an industry, they will almost always be driven towards competitive behaviour, as opposed to collusion.

Steve

[hdkbill]

There sure is a lot of words in this thread.

Too damn many. Wish I had the luxury of time to read it, but nope, can't waste that much time.:thumbsdown: ...got to make a living.

Bill

[gaybucks_chip]

Well in theory, business owners can operate under any theory.

I guess you didn't catch the "many companies are doing this" part. it's not theory, it's a well established approach that works. CCBill and Epoch were friendly (cooperative) competitors for a very long time.

This is a perfect example of how when there are even just two firms in an industry, they will almost always be driven towards competitive behaviour, as opposed to collusion.

From what's publicly known, and until Epoch itself (rather than another member of the choir speaking on their behalf) says otherwise, it certainly *looks* like Epoch is the one that chose the non-cooperative route, which is surprising since it's in everyone's best interest, including Epoch's, for there to be two strong, successful billers in the marketplace.

[Dzinerbear]

The thing that has really disturbed me about this whole mess is the ridiculously overblown statements about "community" that have been tossed around here. People ranting and raving while carrying torches, making egregiuosly false accusations, all while using "unity" as their excuse for doing so. Disgusting. Because the truth is... if you want unity you happen, you have to practice it YOURSELF. You can't demand that others play by the rules if you aren't providing them with an example as well.

So I guess then some members of the Triad throwing off-site, unofficial gay parties every night at last week's Phoenix Forum to compete with the event's sponsored gay parties is an example of "practicing [unity]"?

I wasn't there so maybe I'm just misinformed.

Michael

[shaun]

This is not a case of a big company attacking or taking over a small undefended company, or in any way victimizing a weaker party that could not take care of themselves....

These are great big companies, with lawyers, and good people at the helm.

So WHY is this our business?

Sheesh

[Dzinerbear]

So WHY is this our business?

Because ccbill puts on GREAT shows and AVN doesn't.

Michael

[Lee]

So I guess then some members of the Triad throwing off-site, unofficial gay parties every night at last week's Phoenix Forum to compete with the event's sponsored gay parties is an example of "practicing [unity]"?

I wasn't there so maybe I'm just misinformed.

You certainly arent mis-informed.

Personally i found the whole attitude from those that were being petty at the show to be nothing less than childish because they couldnt get their own way.

Arranging 'private invite only' parties that started 30 minutes prior to the officially sponsored events and having the balls to have people picked up right outside the hotel whilst not showing your face the entire show.

As i have mentioned elsewhere in this thread, for a group of companies constantly telling the gay webmaster community they want unity, they did a lot of splintering of the community at Phoenix.

Regards,

Lee

[CorbinFisher_BD]

No one need fool themselves in to thinking this is just about unity and peace, love and understanding. We are, afterall, business people. Not ravers.

(Are there still ravers, btw? Or did that die off in the 90s? Anyways...)

Everyone's entitled to do business for sake of business alone.

The catch, in this situation though, is that the business IS community and unity.

Read any press release about a convention/show and read any bit of copy on any show website. The organizers bill them as being about unity, community, and bringing people together for the betterment of all.

In the case of conventions and shows, community is the product. It's what is being promised and what should then be delivered.

So, I think when you're going to organize a convention and try and tell the attendees it's for their own sake you're organizing it and for their benefit you're putting it all together and that you're nearly providing a public service, then the standards you're held to are different from those of the cutthroat business hawk.

If you're just out there to make a profit and ruthlessly use the gay webmaster community to boost your bottom line and that's the defense you're going to use, then cut out the fluff in your press releases and all your promotional and marketing material when you say the show "will allow the industry to better facilitate and grow their businesses at strategic times during the year. or creates the best partnership for our show and for the webmaster community.

When community and service ARE the product you're offering then it looks a tad bit odd when you're fracturing the community and denying service in the manner you go about conducting business.

[XXXWriterDude]

One can be a shrewd business operator AND work in ways that benefit the community as a whole, particularly in this business. There is a whole school of thought about this style of doing business, including some MBA programs that focus on that style of doing business, and many companies are discovering this. It requires a different mindset than most are used to, but to say it's ludicrous and hypocritical is not an accurate statement.

So essentially you are saying, "But the way ***I*** think people should do business is the right way." That seems to be the whole basis for your objections, Chip.

I've said that the gay adult community is a double minority and should, for the health of the community, make more effort to work together, but I've never said we're *different*, just that we, as a community, would be more successful if we band together rather than splinter.

I think it's time to take off the rose-colored glasses, Pollyana.

The mature way being to try to pretend that people aren't concerned, so you can ignore the issue and hope it will go away?

In a sense, yes.

And I have some beautiful oceanfront property in Arizona. :fool:

But wait, you keep saying you don't represent AVN's opinion. Has that changed?

No, I'm just telling you what I know, based on the conversations I heard going on between us and CCBill, and from talking to my bosses. I asked them what I was allowed to say in case anyone asked, and they said, "Tell them the truth. A show date was chosen that best suited our needs, we tried to work with CCBill to make it work for everyone, and then they decided to cancel their show."

If I end up fired from this, you'll know that I've said too much.

People can have healthy disagreements on issues and still share the same community with others.

Tell that to the guy who called us all "scumbags."

What's really going on here is not lack of community. It's that many in the community DO want to work together, DO want to understand the full picture, DO want everything to work out to everyone's advantage. If the parties that haven't addressed the issue that clearly concerns a number of people in the community want to solve the problem, all they need to do is communicate about it.

If that's true, then I think that these people need to bring benefit of the doubt to the table, and not infer things as fact based on innuendo or things they've heard. You can spin it any way you want, but the fact is this thread consists of nothing but conjecture from sketchy sources and is salaciously slanderous in nature. As far as I'm concerned, that's not the right way to go about getting answers from people.

Originally Posted by Dzinerbear:
So I guess then some members of the Triad throwing off-site, unofficial gay parties every night at last week's Phoenix Forum to compete with the event's sponsored gay parties is an example of "practicing [unity]"?

I wasn't there so maybe I'm just misinformed.

Actually, you were. AVN was NOT involved in any off-site parties that conflicted with those being thrown on the Forum grounds. I didn't even know they were happening until after the fact, when people mentioned it to me. So much for us being part of the alleged "Gay Mafia."

Look, anyone who knows me knows that I am a straight shooter, and that first and foremost, I DO believe in community. But I also believe in business, and sometimes business gets done that isn't to everybody's liking. Oh well. That's business. You can't always please everybody.

[gaybucks_chip]

Originally Posted by gaybucks_chip
One can be a shrewd business operator AND work in ways that benefit the community as a whole, particularly in this business. There is a whole school of thought about this style of doing business, including some MBA programs that focus on that style of doing business, and many companies are discovering this. It requires a different mindset than most are used to, but to say it's ludicrous and hypocritical is not an accurate statement.

Originally Posted by XXXWriterDude:
So essentially you are saying, "But the way ***I*** think people should do business is the right way." That seems to be the whole basis for your objections, Chip.

No, not saying that at all, I was addressing the notion that it was "ludicrous" to indicate that cooperation is impossible. I would have thought you were astute enough to catch that.

Originally Posted by Gaybucks_Chip:
I've said that the gay adult community is a double minority and should, for the health of the community, make more effort to work together, but I've never said we're *different*, just that we, as a community, would be more successful if we band together rather than splinter.

Originally Posted by XXXWriterDude:
I think it's time to take off the rose-colored glasses, Pollyana.

Think what you will. Being optimistic about what's possible is different than being unrealistic. And as Brian said, these companies putting on these shows are representing them as opportunities for the community to come together. In that context, the hope that people sponsoring events that are supposed to foster unity within the community is not unreasonable, and shouldn't be unrealistic.

Originally Posted by Gaybucks_Chip:
The mature way being to try to pretend that people aren't concerned, so you can ignore the issue and hope it will go away?

Originally Posted by XXX WriterDude:
In a sense, yes.

Wow. Talk about rose colored glasses. Pretty amazing that a company whose business it is to communicate to the industry is consciously and apparently intentionally refusing to communicate to the industry on an issue that is obviously important to a significant number of people in the industry.

Originally Posted by Gaybucks_Chip:
People can have healthy disagreements on issues and still share the same community with others.

Originally Posted by XXXWriterDude:
Tell that to the guy who called us all "scumbags."

I didn't read the entire thread back but I don't think I said anything like that, nor do I condone that sort of name calling. However, at a certain point, disingenuous statements do tend to speak for themselves, and whether stated or not, many people may feel what one person stated.

Originally Posted by Gaybucks_Chip:
If the parties that haven't addressed the issue that clearly concerns a number of people in the community want to solve the problem, all they need to do is communicate about it.

Originally Posted by XXXWriterDude:
If that's true, then I think that these people need to bring benefit of the doubt to the table, and not infer things as fact based on innuendo or things they've heard. You can spin it any way you want, but the fact is this thread consists of nothing but conjecture from sketchy sources and is salaciously slanderous in nature. As far as I'm concerned, that's not the right way to go about getting answers from people.

And I think that since you've pointed that out, several posters have changed the tone of what they've been saying. Yet, they are still greeted with stony silence. And as you've said above, apparently AVN believes that stony silence is the right way to handle the situation, so therefore, it wouldn't matter how friendly and charming the thread is, there still would not have been any answers.