Gay forums/events?

[fabianb]

We've been organizing islandgathering(.com) for 6 years now.
Overtime we've reached quite a few 'gay' webmasters, some have become regular attendees.

A few 'gay' attendees talked to us about the 'why not a gay version of IG?'.

My opinion is that I don't understand why the gay community would want to be excluded from the straight community. Being European I probably have less 'gay fear' so looking for some feedback here.

Our reviews on our event are raving, simply a strong event to get business done. Should we work harder to get maybe another 10-20 'top' gay webmasters into the event or split off the gay community into it's own event?

Some reviews 2006:
gfy(.com)/showthread.php?t=667315[/url]

-F.

[Lee]

Our reviews on our event are raving, simply a strong event to get business done.

You will actually notice that all of the shows have a lot of rave reviews, whether they suck or not, the problem with rave reviews is that people post on the boards to impress.

Personally i dont see why we need to have other 'gay' events, we already have a successfull gay show put on by CCBill, offering more and more shows is going to be like what has happened with webmaster forums over the years, they all start competing with each other for the same small group of webmasters that dont post on the larger boards, making each of these 'new' boards more and more worthless to others.

The same is true for the shows, 5-8 years ago there was perhaps a show every 3-4 months, now there is a show every 3-4 weeks and everyone is 'showed' out, after all, there are only so many times you can see the same reps, trying to sell the same shit, at the same show, with the same sales talk.

Companies need to start realizing that we're at a point now in the industry where we're working with a minute amount of webmasters that arent clued up on what shows to attend, what boards to post on, what programs to use, etc. The pie can only be sliced up so many times before everyone starts fighting over the remaining peice.

Ask yourself, with 2 companies already wanting to cater to the gay market, CCBill and GayVN, two companies that are already well established in that market place, what makes you think you can mirror their successes, based on the fact that until this thread, ive never even seen mention of the Island Gathering on ANY of the gay marketing forums?

Regards,

Lee

[fabianb]

Lee,

Some good comments.
Some remarks:
The straight business is about 8* the size of the gay market.
As a direct result of this straight oriented companies tend to have more staff/sales reps.
We never targeted to this group of people: ceo's and owners is what we're looking for.
Problem with events with too many people results in what you mentioned yourself: too much sales crap.
Cut the sales crap and now you have an owner talking to an owner. No way to back out from a deal here. I've been in too many situations myself where you come back from a show with '5 deals' but end of day they fall apart because sales rep doesn't follow up or doesn't get permission to carry through the deal.

Klixxx has been marketing to and with gay communities for a few years. I believe we where one of the first magazines to cross over from straight to gay which brings me back to one of my questions in my first post: why so little cross over in general?

->

[Lee]

why so little cross over in general?

As i said, if you dont know much about the gay side of the industry, if you did do a 'gay' Island Gathering it would probably fail.

For the record, there's a heap of cross-over from the straight side of the industry to the gay market, many sponsors over the past few years have launched versions of their programs specifically catering to gay marketers, XXXCash, TopBucks, AEBN, SilverCash, SICCash, the list goes on.

The cross-over is there, maybe you just havent noticed it as you were to busy looking for 'CEOs and owners' to spend their money?

Regards,

Lee

[Dzinerbear]

The problem with another gay-only show is that the gay market is small, so we end up seeing the same people over and over again.

We already have the ccbill Gay Phoenix Forum, and now we have the epoch/AVN crowd announcing that they're holding another gay conference during the same month (October). As you can see by the numbers in this poll http://forums.gaywidewebmasters.com/...highlight=show most webmasters here don't want another show, at least not in the same month.

Here's the problem as I see it. I'm an independent webmaster. I can't afford to fork out $3K to go to a show. And if I were to spend that kind of money, I want to make sure I'm going to the best one there is. So, if there are three gay shows and I'm confused about which one is going to be best for me, I'll probably just opt to go to none. I can't take the chance that I'm going to blow $3k on the wrong show.

What I'd prefer to see happen is for the big companies and sponsors of these shows to come together and help independent webmasters get to the shows. After all, wouldn't Condom Cash, for example, be more interested in talking to me than another program. Sure, there are deals to be made between programs, but don't you all want access to the independents who push traffic. Rather than spending thousands of dollars on a booth than doesn't get a lot of foot traffic, or thousands on stickers all over the hotel lobby floor screaming "Pussy Cash," or free limo service from the airport when free hotel shuttle already exists, it might be more effective if these big companies offered independent webmasters a monetary grant to help offset the costs.

If I didn't have to pay to get into the conference and if someone were to give me a grant of $500 or more to help offset my costs, there's a greater chance I good attend the show. And I'm sure a lot of other webmasters are in the same boat.

In order to ensure the sponsors feel that they're getting their money's worth out of it, the conference could set up an event somewhat like those 10-minute date parties. All the sponsors sit at individual tables, and all the grant recipients rotate from sponsor to sponsor, giving each one 10 minutes to pitch their product and talk one-on-one with the webmaster. To avoid abuse, you only get your $500 grant when the event is over and you can present a sheet that each sponsor has signed. Just a thought.

Lee's right, we don't need more shows, we need better shows. If you want to expose yourself and your group to the gay market, why not team up with ccbill's Gay Phoenix Forum and help make that show better.

I'm just a little guy, I don't necessarily need to talk to a CEO. And in fact, I've had more than one CEO screw me up the ass without lube or a condom, and I didn't even get to cum, so I'm not so sure your CEO argument holds much water with me. Give me access to people who can teach me how to push more traffic, build better galleries, and sell more memberships. That's what I need.

Michael

[fabianb]

Lee,

No offense but I find the way you act and react on serious posts quite a joke.

topbucks, silvercash and other straight companies adding a few gay sites isn't a cross over. It's commercializing and tapping into a gay market.
Pretty much same happened 8 years ago with the 'fetish' market.
Huge difference between the real fetish sites and the commercial festish sites that came up after that.
it's pretty much the same as a 100% gay webmaster launching a 'teen pussy' program. Guaranteed his retention will be below average.

And for the record: I wasn't too busy with finding ceo's. I run a 150 staff company so I happen to know the frustrations of going to events and getting nothing done. This was also the reason I started the event to start with, same as we started klixxx that way and many other ventures.

What you could learn from people that run mainstream sites with millions of dollars in revenue is how to maximize this revenue and traffic. When I look at any of your sites I see at least 5 small procedures that are not in use on your sites but are in use by pretty much any straight operator. Probably would add 10-15% revenue on the fly, but I guess 10-15% doesn't mean all that much to you?

For the record: I posted here to have a constructive discussion, not to be bashed.

Michael:
Thanks for a long reply.

Some remarks:
In any business you have different layers of providers. You describe yourself as an 'independent webmaster'.
During IG we always have 10-20 people that are 100% comped by either us or a sponsor or I see a personal value in this person. The way we look at this is very simple: if I know you have X amount of traffic or X amount of other business and by inviting you we might end up doing $20k/yr in business it does pay off.
Very simple return on investment formula.

In your case: if your traffic volume would be big enough and this is known in the market changes are you would get an invite.
I agree with you that forking out a minimum of $3k doesn't make any sense to most people. To be educated on traffic etc. you don't need to fly to an island, you better stay home on go on the boards or come together with 3-4 other guys and create your own learning weekend (but invite at least one straight site webmaster;-) )
Once you grow your business and end up with e.g. 5-10 staff members your needs change. All of a sudden you don't have time anymore to look around and check what the competition is doing but you're busy managing your staff. Those people are the typical guys (and girls) we target.

In the old days CE(cash) brought together tons of mid size and smaller webmasters with almost monthly small events in cities around the US which seem to be what's missing these days.

I like your idea on the 10 minute sessions. I believe phoenix form had a 'passporte' to collect stamps. Not sure if there was any comp after finishing that.

I can't agree more with you on the booth space: 100% blowing money to show off with a big booth. End of day this turns into branding and return on investment is hard to measure. On top of that the traffic passing by has no idea who to talk to: the models or the people working the booth?

Grant:
Good idea. ;-)

F.

[Dzinerbear]

Klixxx has been marketing to and with gay communities for a few years. I believe we where one of the first magazines to cross over from straight to gay which brings me back to one of my questions in my first post: why so little cross over in general?

Ah yes, I see that you do.

Okay, well let me give you some advice.

Last year or maybe earlier this year, I wrote an article for Klixxx "Gay is Not a Niche" and then I wrote a second article for Klixxx about the hairy man and gay bear niche. Working with Rainey, I was going to develop a series of articles for your magazine -- each month I'd cover a different niche in the gay market. I may have written a third article (second in that series) but I can't remember. The plan was to write a whole year's worth of articles for you.

However, after writing two articles for Klixxx I hadn't heard from any one at your magazine. Rainey thanked me for writing them, and Kathy may have, but I'm not sure about that. But it would have be nice if I had heard from the publisher or the editor. A thank-you note or "great article we really appreciate it," an e-mail, a private message, a phone call, a Klixxx pen in the mail would have been nice. But I heard nothing.

Had any of the higher-ups at Klixxx bother to acknowledge my effort, I would have continued writing for you. As you didn't I figured, "Why am I taking time away from my own projects for this." No one seemed to notice.

I was also moderating Unity 360 and doing a lot of writing in an SEO forum there, but again, no one at Klixxx, with the exception of Kathy ever bothered to say anything. Now, I don't need a pat on the head just for the sake of it, but it is nice, and it's also nice to get feedback about what I'm doing right and wrong, and how I could improve. With work and stress piling up on my end (I was working full-time plus running my own empire), I just walked away from it all. I don't need to continue busting my ass for people who can't be bother to acknowledge me, my work, or my time commitment.

It's too bad because I enjoyed the writing; I used to be a gay journalist so it was good to be writing again. But feeling good doesn't put food on the table.

So before you run off and create a new gay show, you might want to re-examine how your company deals with the people that already help them -- or did. If mine is typical of the Klixxx experience, then I can't imagine it's going to be satisfying for a lot people.

Michael

[basschick]

hmmm... because the straight market has no interest in mingling with gay webmasters? yeah, that would be one reason why. people that call our webmasters, content and members fags aren't really interested in understanding how we make money or do business.

not sure if people who run sites like corbinfisher or randyblue are interested in going to your gathering. it'll be interesting to find out. unlike big str8 programs, they really focus on their sites and their business model is more about retention than most bigger straight programs which are all about popup sales one doesn't share with affiliates and upsells.

and sites like corbinfisher, fratmen, and randyblue (which does have a single popup) are training members to trust porn websites with good quality content and exactly what was promised in the tour being offered in the member area. that means we'll have guys who will buy again with confidence later.

most larger straight programs (i've reviewed over 1000 str8 sites) have sites no one would be thrilled to find themselves inside. sure, the straight programs make a lot of money now but as more and more surfers join a couple of those sites, and feel they are being ripped off, ALL of us will make less money in the long run.

and the owners of those big programs are very smug and sure their way is the ONLY way to do business. it doesn't encourage me to want to mingle.

My opinion is that I don't understand why the gay community would want to be excluded from the straight community. Being European I probably have less 'gay fear' so looking for some feedback here.

-F.

[Dzinerbear]

Well said, basschick, very eloquently indeed.

When I tried to make the same point I was told my criticisms were based in 1998.

Michael

[fabianb]

Michael,

It's well known that gay programs generally retain longer. Still some straight programs are able to pay way more and it seems to me that the high payouts per signup only come from gay programs operated by straight operators (topbucks/silvercash etc. etc).

Refering to 12 pops and 10 picture sets is adult in 1998. Point out one big straight program that fits this criteria in 2006/2007?

Basschick:
so your conclusion is that straight operators are not interested in the gay operators?

I happen to know quite a few numbers of larger operators and your argument is that surfers are unhappy. If this is the case it would result in lower retention/member value per ?
More then ever the big guys are working hard on content, they all realize that content is king. More content = higher conversion = more dollars.

Problem with the straight market is a low barrier of entry. $ 750 for ccbill/epoch, some hosting and some content does the trick. Content is more widely available and pretty much any argument there is factor 8.
8* more straight guys, 8* more content, 8* more surfers, 8* more cash hence 8* more clowns and cowboys.

On your own muscle site you use the word 'free' on the tour. After the real free trial was dropped (years ago) numbers showed that 'free tour' would increase conversion.
Reason being: surfers would get confused.
You don't find this deceptive?

[Lee]

Michael,

It's well known that gay programs generally retain longer. Still some straight programs are able to pay way more and it seems to me that the high payouts per signup only come from gay programs operated by straight operators (topbucks/silvercash etc. etc).

Refering to 12 pops and 10 picture sets is adult in 1998. Point out one big straight program that fits this criteria in 2006/2007?

Basschick:
so your conclusion is that straight operators are not interested in the gay operators?

I happen to know quite a few numbers of larger operators and your argument is that surfers are unhappy. If this is the case it would result in lower retention/member value per ?
More then ever the big guys are working hard on content, they all realize that content is king. More content = higher conversion = more dollars.

Problem with the straight market is a low barrier of entry. $ 750 for ccbill/epoch, some hosting and some content does the trick. Content is more widely available and pretty much any argument there is factor 8.
8* more straight guys, 8* more content, 8* more surfers, 8* more cash hence 8* more clowns and cowboys.

On your own muscle site you use the word 'free' on the tour. After the real free trial was dropped (years ago) numbers showed that 'free tour' would increase conversion.
Reason being: surfers would get confused.
You don't find this deceptive?

Forgive me for talking down to you (as Ken puts it) but if you dont want the advice you are being given, why even bothering asking our opinions in the first place?

You've been given A LOT of good reasons why you shouldnt do a gay only Island Gathering in addition to a lot of other good advice in this thread based on our experiences, yet so far, everyone that has tried to help you has been met with negativity.

Perhaps thats another reason why you shouldnt do a gay only Island Gathering, the people that would have been your best asset in promoting the event you have now managed to turn against you.

Regards,

Lee

[fabianb]

Lee,

Pretty much the only real good reason so far has been:
-we have our island, you have yours.
-we don't need straight guys to tell us how to run our biz.

Almost any other argument I've seen so far is more about staying in the own circle then anything else.

Besides the bulk of the negative narrow minded replies I see a few open minded replies which are really thought out.
Once the thread dies out I will for use make a nice list and analyze.
Once studied I probably will come to the conclusion to invite 10-20 guys on our expense to the event and experience it and built the feedback that way.

My reactions aren't negative, just countering some arguments that don't make sense to me. Some replies pretty much say 'straight programs fuck the surfer' but on the other hand you see similar tactics on their own gay sites. Maybe he has a good reason for using this tactic,, hence the reply button.

I can't see why I make enemies here. I am having an open discussion.
15 people are allowed to have 15 different opinions?

->F

[basschick]

i do not use the word free on my tour.

and most large programs' sites suck badly. most don't make their own content - they pay others to shoot it and it mostly looks like it was done in a rush on a budget, and many sites that use the same shooters actually end up with the same models and the same locations. two of our largest programs stream their content at 300k or under and don't update most of their sites. 2 more really large programs are 100% plugin for their non reality sites. a bunch of programs also shoot around 12 episodes and then never update their sites. these things are the norm.

of the large programs, topbucks reality sites are among the very few that update and even a lot of them update only every two weeks, are mostly upsells and plugins - and their standard sites are all plugins.

as i said, i've reviewed over 1000 straight sites, and more of those sites are big programs' sites.

[Dzinerbear]

Refering to 12 pops and 10 picture sets is adult in 1998. Point out one big straight program that fits this criteria in 2006/2007?

Topbucks, Bubble Butts Galore just popped a pop under when I visited the site, and when I closed the pop-under, I got three more before the chain was exhausted. And TopBucks certainly isn't the only one, I just don't have the time to dig around, but I'm guaranteeing you that if I surfed straight porn for one hour, I could bring you a whole list of offenders.

And why do you think gay sites retain better? We generally don't jerk surfers around and we expend more energy creating quality content. If you look at Gay Blowjob Auditions, which is run by Platinum Bucks, the content you see in the preview area is pretty much what you get. The rest of their member's area is plugins. When I reviewed the site I couldn't find anywhere that they ever update the site. This is an example of what I was talking about with big straight programs mismanaging their sites. Imagine a surfer's reaction if this is the first "gay" porn site they have ever joined. Every other real gay site on the Net now has to overcome this surfer's hesitancy -- he doesn't want to get ripped off again. (Oh and btw, Platinum Bucks also popped a pop-under when I visited their Gay Blowjob Auditions. Their Hardcore Sweethearts, a straight site, also popped a pop under. Granted it wasn't a chain.)

"Basschick:
so your conclusion is that straight operators are not interested in the gay operators?"

They're only interested in finding out why our sites retain so well, but when we try and tell them, they laugh and go on their merry way doing what they always do because afterall they're rolling in millions. And all they need to do to increase sales is shoot 8 sets with chicks fucking miniature porcelain dwarfs and say, "Thousands of pics inside" and whoosh! away they go, thousands more surfers duped into thinking they're getting thousands of pics of chicks fucking porcelain dwarfs.

As far as I can see the straight model runs like this: throw up three new sites a week, take the initial hit, don't update them very much at all, let them run their course, and then, retire them or leave them up to capture all the new traffic that hasn't been duped yet. When the rebilling and new sales drop off enough, kill them completely.

btw fabian, do you work for Klixxx?

Michael