NTSB "rules black boxes" put in every new U.S. car immediately

WASHINGTON — Some safety and privacy experts are reacting with apprehension, others with all out condemnation over a recent ruling by the National Transportation Safety Board to require electronic data recorders or "black boxes" in all new cars manufactured in the United States.

Owners also have no legal protections to keep them from being forced to hand over that information to another party if a court order demanded it.

"I take offense that this personal property of individuals is now being designed by the federal government," said Jim Harper, privacy attorney and editor of Privacilla.org.

"We think for understanding the dynamics of crashes, the information here can be very, very helpful," said Lon Anderson, director of AAA Mid-Atlantic. On the other hand, Anderson said, "We think it would be very wrong if the data in these boxes was deemed to be public information, open to anybody and the owner had no say over it."

Privacy experts warn that once cars are outfitted for the most limited data recording, the government will find a way to argue it’s for drivers’ "own good" to collect more. They point to a push in recent years to install GPS in all cars so that emergency officials can easily find incapacitated accident victims.

"When you are telling someone it is for their own good, then it should be their own choice, they should be able to say ‘no,’" said professor Yale Kamisar of the University of Michigan Law School. "None of these things work out the way they are supposed to. Why should we believe all of these assurances when they haven’t been honored in the past?"

FULL STORY

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Notice how the AAA car insurance company in this story supports the black boxes. You know why? Because when you get in a wreck and the black box incriminates you, even in the slightest way, AAA wont have to payout your claim!

I had no idea that under our noses General Motors was placing these in every 2004 model without notifying the public! ""EDRs" have been fitted into every General Motors car in its 2004 line and is in a number of Ford models — about 15 percent of all vehicles on the road today, according to road safety experts."

What do you think about this?

I dont speed much anyway... :wtf:

that is bullshit. there are SO many things you could do besides speed that would keep you from being paid by your insurance company.

wow, big brother really IS watching us.

it's only a matter of time before the boxes start being disabled by people unless they tell us we can't even though we own the cars

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Originally posted by basschick
that is bullshit. there are SO many things you could do besides speed that would keep you from being paid by your insurance company.

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Very true! Vetronix, the company that makes the recorders, has a list of things that can be recorded here

With the way insurance companies currently work, giving them access to the information recorded, without restriction, will allow them to snake out of paying claims for people quite easily, even if the other person is found at fault. ( i.e. if someone is heading straight for you in a head on collision, and you didn't swerve fast enough to get out of their path, the insurance company can deterimine that it was your fault the accident happened. )

The most alarming thing is that we have no say as Americans with the rules the NTSB puts in place. So the NTSB could say it wants to put in place a law for GPS to be installed in all new vehicles, we'd have no say. The NTSBhas already indicated that they are looking into requiring GPS in all new vehicles to help motorist that are trapped or lost that call for help and don't know their location.

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Originally posted by jIgG
it's only a matter of time before the boxes start being disabled by people unless they tell us we can't even though we own the cars

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They will make it a law to remove the "black boxes", like they have a law against removing the tag on pillows stating their not flame resistant :-D

Also, insurance companies will simply write into their policies that if the boxes are removed or tampered with, your coverage is void.

Thanks to the insurance companies it's already against the law to not have insurance, which is a good thing if the insurance companies actually fulfilled their purpose, instead of hiring legions of in house attornies so they don't have to pay out claims :-D

Well not to be contrary, but just what is the difference between every plane having a black box and a car? They provide information in the event of a crash/accident so how come its so bad for private cars but not public transport?

If this was say made for Buses and truck drivers? Would it be acceptable then?

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Originally posted by gaystoryman
If this was say made for Buses and truck drivers? Would it be acceptable then?

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Great point!

I think what it comes down to is there was no due process in this decision. The citizens had no say. The fear is that when they install a "black box" on cars under our noses, and without due process, then nothing is to stop them from installing GPS tracking devices in our vehicles without due process, and the input of citizens.

Some people fear that insurance companies, which lobbied for this with the NTSB, will use the information received from these "black boxes" to screw consumers more then they already are.

The point isn't that "black boxes" give information. The points are 1) These were installed without our knowledge or approval 2) Who has a right to the information and what are they going to do with it and 3) What else will the NTSB mandate installed on all vehicles without our knowledge.

This will help save the insurance companies money. You really don't think the insurance companies lobbied to get these installed for no reason do you?

No I agree that there could be ulterior motives, and sure I can see how it can be used in court too. But call me an idealist but I think it will do more to screw the dishonest accident claims than the honest ones.

I mean how many doctors get sued for malpractise in the USA and they settle not because they are guilty, but because it is cheaper than fighting... because in fighting juries tend to side with the victim even if the victim really isn't a victim..

so to be honest, I don't have a problem with the black boxes. As for GPS they are there, most car rental outfits have had them for ages, and isn't there something that's been in the high end cars called lojack for a few years already?

As to the process. I'll give you that one, but where do you draw the line on public safety? Seriously, I know up here they changed the legal driving age to 18 because kids were just too irresponsible.. not all, not the majority but too many to allow 16 year olds to continue getting DL's... so no it isn't fair but it is a better solution than nothing and guess what, the kids had no say in it either.

I mean what is a government elected for but to govern? I am not trying to be argumentive, but I don't get it. Why elect any government if every decision has to be put to the general public? And taking tha one step further, is that perhaps not one reason why 50% of the US electroate simply don't vote anymore? They are just too inundated with vote for this, vote for that, vota against this, and are overloaded? I mean government means to govern... not plebiscite.

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Originally posted by gaystoryman
No I agree that there could be ulterior motives, and sure I can see how it can be used in court too. But call me an idealist but I think it will do more to screw the dishonest accident claims than the honest ones.

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Everyone wants dishonest people that cause termoil, and higher rates for everyone, eliminated, I'm no exception lol

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Originally posted by gaystoryman
I mean how many doctors get sued for malpractise in the USA and they settle not because they are guilty, but because it is cheaper than fighting... because in fighting juries tend to side with the victim even if the victim really isn't a victim.

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Well in a democracy, if we had guilty until proven innocent ( like in China ) that wouldn't be fair for the doctors either. Every system has dishonest scum that muck things up. These people are a burden to society, that's why they are punished when they are caught.

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Originally posted by gaystoryman
As to the process. I'll give you that one, but where do you draw the line on public safety? Seriously, I know up here they changed the legal driving age to 18 because kids were just too irresponsible.. not all, not the majority but too many to allow 16 year olds to continue getting DL's... so no it isn't fair but it is a better solution than nothing and guess what, the kids had no say in it either.

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So there was no public knowledge of this before it happened? No public debate? Just one day a new law was passed?

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Originally posted by gaystoryman
I mean what is a government elected for but to govern? I am not trying to be argumentive, but I don't get it. Why elect any government if every decision has to be put to the general public? And taking tha one step further, is that perhaps not one reason why 50% of the US electroate simply don't vote anymore? They are just too inundated with vote for this, vote for that, vota against this, and are overloaded? I mean government means to govern... not plebiscite.

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A government is there to do the will of the people. To do the will of the people the people must tell you what they want. You must notify people before you take action as part of due process. That is why we have congress, state representatives, etc. The people didn't say what they wanted in this case, the insurance companies did.

Luckily in California the powers that be knew this was happening and made it law that when we purchase a vehicle in California, the dealer must disclose if the device is installed on the vehicle.

It all boils down to information. How you obtain information, how it's stored, and who has access to it. You know why it's an issue? Because information is power. The information that I'm a Gay father with porn websites was used to try and take my son away from me. I did nothing wrong, but the information alone was enough to set the wheels in motion for some pretty awful things to happen. The information that you're homosexual may be used against you gaining employment. If someone had information that the president of the United States was Gay, that's powerful information.

I can't believe some of the things I'm reading here! For me it would be the principle that you no longer have any privacy. And I'm sorry but the argument of what's the difference between the black boxes in an airplane or in a car - well, one is PUBLIC transportation and the other PRIVATE transportation - appels and oranges!

Typically speaking when people (who you are not related to) tell you they're doing something for your own good, you can surely bet it's to benefit THEM! And if it's something that insurance companies came up with, you can believe without a doubt it's yet another reason designed to keep them from having to pay claims. Isn't the concept behind insurance playing the odds game? E.g., 1 in 10,000 will get into an accident but we'll make money on the 9,999 that don't???

My oh my oh my oh my...I'm just wondering what you all will be saying when they come up with a law to put these black boxes in your home FOR YOUR OWN GOOD. For example, to protect the neighbors from damages due to a gas leak, forgetting to turn the stove off, to prevent domestic violence, to prevent babies from drowning in the bathtub or suffocating in their sleep, to prevent burglaries, etc., etc., etc.

This is a gay forum but need I remind you of the case in TX where two men were arrested for having sex in the privacy of their own home?

Thanks but no thanks!

Some of you are so paranoid.

It's not like insurance companies would have the ability to connect to these boxes and see if you've been doing 90 lately.

This would be a fantastic tool to find out what really happened during an accident.

The person who slammed into your car and killed people wouldn't get away with saying he slid on wet pavement after the black box revealed he didn't even brake until 2 seconds before impact.

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Originally posted by Matt 26z
Some of you are so paranoid.

It's not like insurance companies would have the ability to connect to these boxes and see if you've been doing 90 lately.

This would be a fantastic tool to find out what really happened during an accident.

The person who slammed into your car and killed people wouldn't get away with saying he slid on wet pavement after the black box revealed he didn't even brake until 2 seconds before impact.

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I agree that this would be a fantastic tool to find out what "mechanically" really happened during an accident for example at what point before impact were the brakes applied. However, it still leaves speculation as to for example, WHY the brakes weren't applied until 2 seconds before impact. Could it be that the driver was preoccupied by a projectile coming at him in which he was in shock or panicked for a few seconds? And if so, does that make him to blame for not applying the brake earlier? And would that be grounds for his insurance company not to pay a claim?

My point is that although it may be a great technology, as with all great technologies, technology can often times be used for bad as well as good. If it is only to be used for good (i.e., to help auto manufactureres build safer cars) then what's wrong with having legislation that dictates that information obtained from these black boxes cannot be used in litigation to determine fault of an accident. To me that sounds like a win-win situation. I would however, be weary of someone who would oppose such legislation.