What the Canadians were talking about this morning...

We all agreed that Americans were Butt-heads for voting in that moron...

but that's not really what we thought was so lame.

What we all were laughing at was how America blathers on and on and on about being the greatest democracy of all, and some people waited in line for up to 9 hours to vote.

9 Hours.

How is someone who works for minimum wage supposed to take off a full day to go stand in line?

how is a single mother supposed to take off a full day to go wait in line?

Maybe that was the point.

I've voted in about 15 elections and referendums up here in Canada, and I've never waited for longer than 2 minutes to vote.

If America wants us to believe that they're the greatest democracy in the world, maybe they should look into having something other than Third-World style elections.

Pathetic, really.

I agree.

Well is it surprising the Canadians would not behave in ways other then patronizing about the USA towards today's news?

This election was definitely the most interesting one I have lived through. The big question was the war in Iraq and how the United States should act in the world, and address the issues of the Middle East and terrorism.

Democracy incorporates the marketplace of ideas, and the winner of that debate won by a very large margin.

That is the process. Just calling the people you disagree with as "stupid" is in and of itself not a solid analysis.

I think the success of all those bad marriage referenda should cause the gay rights community to really rethink how to handle that issue. Of all the results, that makes me the most uncofortable.

But this election is all about Iraq, pure and simple. Now what if democracy gets established in Iraq now? It's working now in Afghanistan (presumed impossible earlier). What if there really at the end of the day are some serious changes in the entire Middle East? Who would have thought in 1985 that Central America today would be functioning countries.... or Poland???

Steve

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Originally posted by desslock
That is the process. Just calling the people you disagree with as "stupid" is in and of itself not a solid analysis.

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Well, I didn't actually use the word "Stupid". But hey.. if the shoe fits...

My post wasn't about that. It was about how poorly the elections were run. And Canadians have a right to be Patronizing about US elections. Ours are run well. (I should point out that I'm an American dual Citizen, by the way, and I can criticize my country all I want. until that's taken out of the constitution.. in about a year.)

I agree with Jasun on how poorly the election was run, not even mentioning the cheating that went on, especially in Florida.

And the point of our boys being over in Iraq has nothing to do with establishing Democracy there, it's all about filling George Dubya's pockets, which he's done. And he's duped the Amerian people enough to vote him in again. :(

Quote:

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Originally posted by Jasun
Well, I didn't actually use the word "Stupid". But hey.. if the shoe fits...
(I should point out that I'm an American dual Citizen, by the way, and I can criticize my country all I want. until that's taken out of the constitution.. in about a year.)

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LOL :yeah:

Well funny you should bring that up, as I happened to be an election judge yesterday, a 16 hour day.

My precinct of 3500 registered voters had a 65% turnout, and for the record Kerry/Edwards carried it strongly. If your beef is because people have to wait in line here, I have a point you may not have considered.

In one significant way, the US is more democratic then Canada because - unless I am mistaken and I may be - you guys really only vote for your national MP and province MP... right? [i guess mayors and city councils too] You guys have pretty short ballots.

Our ballot yesterday was 5 pages long. And there was only one referendum... the rest were for President, congress, our state rep, state commissons and judges, district judges, sheriff....

We had 8 voting booths - and there were lines all morning. Although the longest people waited was before work 7 - 9am. After that, waiting was never more then a minute or two.

So actually US citizens exercize the democratic process on a significantly greater amount of their government at all levels. This takes longer. I'm not saying it is better or worse - just different.

Now I saw on the news last night about reports of people waiting 6 hours. I am skeptical of that. And any situations of that are few and very far between. I'm sure out of the over 100 millions votes case yesterday you can find some bad situations. Look at the results today, and you will see almost all election authorites reporting 100%, save overseas and military ballots.

Steve

i dont recall who said it, but i seem to recall a quote along the lines of "Democracy was a noble experiment" .... and this was said over 100 years ago

Now I saw on the news last night about reports of people waiting 6 hours. I am skeptical of that.

Wait a minute!

I'm in Michigan...moved here from Ohio

I still have many friends in Ohio...they don't bullshit

YES there were people that waited inline in excess of 3 to 6 hours to vote....

What's so damn sad about it too is that they really held on for hope for Kerry.

I find it VERY strange that he could have, #1 lost Ohio in the first damn place, and #2 concede to Bush so early (after saying they'd count every vote!)

My friends in Ohio feel very whipped today...and for what!

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Originally posted by desslock
In one significant way, the US is more democratic then Canada because - unless I am mistaken and I may be - you guys really only vote for your national MP and province MP... right?

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nope. We have plebicites too. Not as many as the States do, but that's because we entrust our representatives to speak for us in the house.

Simply having more questions and propositions on a ballot doesn't make you more Democratic, just more untrustworthy of your representatives.

And generally, those questions are just cynical attempts to get people to the polls. Do you really think people gave a rat's ass about gay unions? That was only on so many ballots to get Evangelical Christians to the polls.. not because it mattered to them.

Texas does not have initiative and referendum either --- unlike California or Oregon.

My five page ballot was filled with almost exclusively with people running for election. Sorry I didn't make that clear. That's my point that in that case, the US offers the voting citizen with a far greater opportunity to form its government. Also in Texas we elect all of our judges up to the state supreme court.

I'm sorry if I am defensive about it... but I've chosen to work all the elctions in west Austin since 1996... and it is frustrating to hear people whine and complain about how allegedly bad the system is, when they can easily go and also work that day to learn the actual process, and simultaneouly be performing a fun and useful civic duty.

There are always polls that open up late for some reason, or something screws up, but that is part of the system. Also - the 1960s brought us a large set of well needed Voting Rights (circa LBJ) many of which establish lots of the process we see today.

A lot of "problems" and "complaints" people voice today about electronic voting, voter registration, or ballot counting and reconciling are actually the effects of these laws. They are there for good reason and are beneficial.

Steve

This election was about Iraq. And that's what was so sad.

That the Bush administration could launch a bogus war on phony pretense as a means to make themselves indispensible - create a problem and then offer themselves up as the only viable solution.

We knew Iraq didn't have WMDs. We knew they weren't a thread and had been contained by sanctions and inspections. We knew that all up until Sept. 11th when even Bush's own cabinet members started changing their stories about Iraq and creating a cause for war out of thin air.

And when they fucked it up and erred in planning and saddled us with body bags and hundreds of billions in costs they suckered the American people with some faux patriotism bullshit to get themselves reelected.

Fact of the matter is that 9/11 was the best thing to ever have happen to the Bush administration's chances for reelection and they knew it. They milked it. They worked it. And in the dark of night when no one's watching they thank their lucky stars for that day and how it enabled them to manipulate the easily-manipulated American people in to giving them an additional 4 years to bend this nation in to what serves their own selfish and twisted aims.

couldn't the long lines and wait to vote be construed as a good thing? I mean, it surely shows that more people than ever were voting, right?

'sides, at least here in California, long lines are a very common occurrence... getting your driver's liscense renewed... the grocery store, ANY Government agency... the Freeways, the list goes on and on.

I do find it curious that the only places that we hear about outrageous long lines were to be found in places like Florida, Pennsylvania and Ohio.. where the race was highly contested, and long line-ups would hinder the poor who can't take a full day off to stand in line.

Quote:

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Originally posted by desslock
Texas does not have initiative and referendum either --- unlike California or Oregon.

My five page ballot was filled with almost exclusively with people running for election. Sorry I didn't make that clear. That's my point that in that case, the US offers the voting citizen with a far greater opportunity to form its government. Also in Texas we elect all of our judges up to the state supreme court.

I'm sorry if I am defensive about it... but I've chosen to work all the elctions in west Austin since 1996... and it is frustrating to hear people whine and complain about how allegedly bad the system is, when they can easily go and also work that day to learn the actual process, and simultaneouly be performing a fun and useful civic duty.

There are always polls that open up late for some reason, or something screws up, but that is part of the system. Also - the 1960s brought us a large set of well needed Voting Rights (circa LBJ) many of which establish lots of the process we see today.

A lot of "problems" and "complaints" people voice today about electronic voting, voter registration, or ballot counting and reconciling are actually the effects of these laws. They are there for good reason and are beneficial.

Steve

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Sorry, but the system IS VERY antiquated!

(If you need me to come up with at least 17 reasons why, I can...just was feeling like I know I don't need to right now....but, I sure as hell could)