Printable View
Are you going to try to comply or will you try to set up in another country ? I know this is just hypothetical, but really, if they get their way, what are you going to do.
I'm seriously thinking about going to Canada. I don't want to give up my business because of these idiots.
I will comply.
Maybe I should establish a service that pairs Americans wanting out with Canadian husbands ... gay marriage is legal in Canada.
dzinerbear
how? you planning to be home from 8 am to 6 pm every single day - no holidays, no vacations, no trips to the store?
Quote:
Originally Posted by thetwink
Id be up for that. Candians are Hawt!Quote:
Originally Posted by Dzinerbear
On advice from one of the most respected adult lawyers we've spent the last year making sure we comply with anything 2257 they can throw at us.
People, its only a bit of extra work.. its hardly the end of the world.....
For me, it has more to do with the hostility that this current administration has toward this industry and rest assured, this is only the beginning. They still have 3 1/2 years to make US webmasters lives miserable. There's nothing stopping them from making impossible demands in the future.
My business actually resides in New Mexico which is in the 10th federal district. This is the court that threw out the Justice Departments 2257 regulations as unenforceable.
t0miie - it's NOT just extra work.
i've talked to two of the best known adult attorneys, plus the attorney of one of the biggest content providers.
every one said the same thing about the proposed regs: that if it stood, and you had to act as custodian, you would have to be in your PRIMARY place of business from 8 am to 6pm 7 days a week (potentially earlier depending on how "business hours" is interpreted), no time off to go to the store, do a shoot, or go to the doctor - as it stood, that was 365 days per year, too.
and you can't change your mind - once you are acting custodian, you can't stop even if you turn off your site.
Quote:
Originally Posted by t0miie
ok, I'll reiterate... I will comply to the best of my ability.Quote:
Originally Posted by basschick
Basschick, you really have a hardon for this one point, and it seems like you really think the regulations literally impossible, and because of that we are all doomed to go to jail.
A. they can't get us all. B. there will most undoubtedly be lawsuits that set precedent when and if someone gets wrongly jailed when his only flaw was an unavailability issue, and C. Showing that you have all of the other aspects of the rules in compliance and a good faith of being available during normal business hours would help towards a situation B, imo.... if it doesn't, then so be it...
Got no choice but to think it this way, especially according to your doomsay attitude about the availbility factor. We must all get out of the business now, if your fears are true... c'mon, I know you have a better head on your shoulders than that.
Quote:
Originally Posted by basschick
So they turn up to inspect al your 2257 stuff, why can't you stop whatever your doing and come back to show them your records? From what I understand the *records* need to be made available during "reasonable hours" at your place of business. Logistically, that isn't hard to do...
I don't think it says that you, the custodian of records must be ready and waiting to greet them at the door with tea and coffee or anything, but I'll be getting clarification on that just in case :)
It's all a big pain in the ass for sure, but its not unworkable.
t0miie - what if you're not there? what if your kid calls from school or your mom has a heart attack? probably the judge will understand, but if you get a judge who really hates porn, or who is strongly by the book...
thetwink - i have a hardon for a point that everyone wants to pretend wasn't there. i bring it up because this is what several of the best attorneys in our business told me - names i see on boards all the time, guys who are recommended by and to everyone, guys who speak at every convention, and who the big boys consult.
i have a great head on my shoulders, and being an ostrich won't change things. i'm not a large corporation who can have someone at the primary place of business 7 days a week, with my corporation acting as the custodian.
IF those new regs are passed as they were displayed originally, it will not be possible for me to comply. i'll be out of the biz, because i'm not going to be actually breaking a law and crossing my fingers that i won't be the next one they get to.
being wrongly jailed in our industry generally means they seize your computers, and you have to pay a lawyer while your sites are down. remember mike jones? they STILL haven't returned his content or his computers! it's been years!
Quote:
Originally Posted by basschick
so, that's your plan, then? you're seriously going to quit if that part remains as it was proposed? What if that part gets overturned a year later or 3 years later? what if they ammend it to allow third party records keeping? etc.
I know this is going to be a real herd thinning situation, but I never considered you part of the herd....
i have to side with Basschick on this one. When the government comes after you, it's fast and furious. They don't just shut you down, they make your life a living hell, basically using you as a scapegoat for all the evils of society. It turns your life upside down in most cases. The fact that they can put you in prison for five years on a paperwork error boggles the mind.
Let's hope this all ends quickly. California resides in the 9th circuit, which is the most liberal federal court of appeals in this country. If push comes to shove, I believe the courts will throw out most of what makes up the new proposed 2257 regulations. Basically, the current showdown is congress is all about adding conservative judges to the 9th circuit. It is seen as the "activist" circuit and so far congress has been able to block the appointment of extreme conservative judges to sit on the 9th circuit.
The 9th circuit of appeals represents the roadblock to their blueprint of a new moral code that 49% of us don't want shoved down our throats. It's very important that Democrats or Republicans continue to be able to fillibuster. It's part of the cheques and balances that give a minority a say in what goes on in this country. Let's just hope the 9th circuit stays in tact. If it goes moderate or even conservative, this administration will have undone decades of legislative balance and well, you've seen their handy work.
Huskyhunks - the courts may not have this at their discretion, but hopefully maybe... i think living in california is nice because of community standards, though ;)
thetwink - you are being fairly insulting - maybe because you don't like what i'm saying... i want to be very brief and clear:
the lawyers i spoke to said having your i.d. in order WOULD NOT be enough to have you in compliance with those proposed regs. period.
i am not a criminal. if these are the changes to the laws, i will follow them for that reason. following the herd? are you honestly suggesting that people should break the law? since 2257 already existed to protect children, the only reason for the new laws IS to harrass webmasters.
btw, i believe there is a five year manadatory sentence that can go as high as ten - that is, if your models are all over 18.
I think there are some very good points being made by all sides in this discussion. But I've noticed no one has really talked about the PRACTICAL aspect of the enforcement of these new regs.
As it is, the federal government, and especially the A.G.'s office has shown to be pretty inept when it comes to law enforcement. Heck, we can't even get our intelligence agencies together to really find the terrorists in this country and protect our airports properly.
So with the myriad of of porn sites out there, just how enforceable will these new regulations be from a manpower standpoint? There has to be someone to SURF and look at the sites, and somewhere along the line someone has to say "We should go visit whoever owns this site." THEN, you need people to actually do such visits. With the shrinking budget and cutbacks this administration has been initiating, where the heck are they going to get all this manpower?
I know that the really BIG boys would be fairly easy to round up ("Hi Mr. Flint, I'm from the AG's office & I want to see your records."), but for all the 18 year old's out there running sites from their parent's basements..how are you really going to have enuf people running around tracing these people down and actually visiting them?
So while I think it's important that you be compliant, and I agree that it shouldn't be that difficult to have the records, and have the records in one spot where they can be easily retreived, personally I will find it interesting to see how many people they actually do bust.
Remember..under the OLD regs..NO ONE was ever busted! At least according to the outgoing Attorney General himself.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Huskyhunks
Can you name one webmaster or website that got investigated and/or shut down for being in violation of the old regulations?
I'll answer that with a couple of questions, do you want to be the first ? Are you willing to bet that they don't have the manpower to put you in prison for 5 years ?
I get the feeling this is a personal vendetta by Gonzales on the Extreme Associates ruling. He's gonna use all the influence of the Attorney General's office. That means lot's of intimidation and lot's of mis-information. It's definitely propoganda but these laws actually have teeth. Everything is in place to prosecute under 2257 and "community standards" are not applicable.
i read interviews with government people about this stuff. they want to get some smaller webmasters - NOT the big boys. if they get convictions or deals in the first few arrests, it will make the others that much easier because of precedents - and a webmaster who can't afford the first $30,000 for attorney fees are a lot more likely to cop a plea, allowing the government to say their war on porn is successful.
will they all go to jail? probably not, but to me, the first important thing is that i don't go to jail. i don't play the odds with things like my life or my freedom...
We are still waiting to see the new regulations.
true enough - but mostly people are organizing their i.d.s as per the regulations we already saw. 30 days isn't a lot of time.
Of course I don't want to go to jail. But my point was and still is, that ASSHCROFT said one of the reasons no one was brought to litigation under the old regs was for lack of enforcement manpower and the paperwork involved.Quote:
Originally Posted by Huskyhunks
Has there been a large influx of manpower under the current AG to administer, investigage and then prosecute?
----------------
Basschick: Ok, so they go after a couple of "small fry" to set a precedent. What will that do? Scare people? YEP! And make them compliant! But do I see a mass roundup of adult webmasters like we had in World War II with Japanese-Americans? Nope..not even anywhere close to that.
Fear is their biggest weapon and I will give them their props for being able to use fear to further their agenda.
i read but have not seen confirmed that they will be able to use the newly formed obscenity task force. also they will be able to use federal marshals.
our new attorney general is actually more obssessed with sex and obscenity that our old one was. he talks about it in EVERY speach he makes - i'm not kidding. basically he has told us that porn is his FIRST priority, above anything else :(
Quote:
Originally Posted by basschick
There is an "obscenity task force"? Is this some volunteer group or Washington beaurocrats running this? Heck, we've got "Homeland Security" task force too, and so far all they seem to be able to do is tell us if it's going to be a "yellow day" or "orange day." I'd truly love a link to read about this group.
As for Federal Marshals..talk to one of these guys if you ever get a chance. They are SWAMPED with everything from missing children from divorced homes taken by the other parent, to run aways, interstate drugs & prostitution etc etc.
In fact, NBC had a special news section a couple of months back about how there are fewer federal marshals now than just 10 years ago..again, due to federal cutbacks.
the obscenity task force was formed in the last few months. it has - they have announced - already got a bunch of prosecutions well on the way. they are paid, they are guys with previous law experience.
the federal marshals ARE overworked, but they are going to have to make a priority out of what they are told is their priority.
you should read our new attorney general's speeches. he has touched on porn in every one - he says we are his priority. it seems porn comes before violent crimes, hate crimes, molestation. it's pretty scary to me that sex is more important to our policitians than all these horrible things :(
Quote:
Originally Posted by basschick
Ok..just googled this task force and read 7 articles on it..almost all saying the same thing:
"The Task Force will be dedicated to the investigation and prosecution of the distributors of hard-core pornography that meets the test for obscenity, as defined by the United States Supreme Court. Although the Task Force will create a singular focus for the prosecution of obscenity cases, CEOS will continue to prosecute obscenity cases in addition to child pornography, child exploitation and trafficking crimes. As in past obscenity cases, Justice Department prosecutors will continue to work in coordination with U.S. Attorneys’ Offices, the FBI, the Department of Homeland Security, the U.S. Postal Inspection Service and other federal and local law enforcement partners."
So..we're talking about pedophilia, bestiality, etc here..NOT 2257 "singular focus.." (yes, I know they can "snitch" to someone about 2257, but I still have to argue that the manpower to truly enforce this on any large scale method of operation is currently not within the reaches of the justice dept.)
Frankly, what I've seen and read about as far as actually busting operaters of porn sites have come from the local level...police and local DA's.
yes, most busts are local. but the laws have protected us till now - we weren't involved in record keeping, and to the extent we do keep records, there were no extensive requirements.
in elections, we could be the easiest and safest busts to show off how the current chief of police or mayor is protecting the public. virtually risk-free, unlike busting drug dealers...
it amazes me how many people i talk to who really do consider porn a threat on the level with child abuse or worse :wtf:
You don't think with this insane "God wanted me elected" President that he will not get the funding for a division of the "justice Department" to be dedictated to going after us "immoral perverts" spreading our perversion into his "perfect" Christian vision of America (remember that he has GOD on his side)...and furthermore don't think that FAGGOT sites will NOT be the first ones targeted!!
Wake up and smell the jail time!!! This new American is NOT the land of the Free that it once was but the land of Christians!
Sad BUT TRUE...
Lee
OMG! This is just the fucking beginning..they are also passing national id cards ( can you say" show me your papers"!) They are so after us it's not funny. Not just the porn industry but gays, freaks( men with pussies) I am so scared I am going to be a target since I am the only one and totally freaky to them. My wife and I are total freaks!
I am very much thinking of moving to Mexico. My friends from BME totally moved there and started a community. It's looking better every second!
buck - what about canada?
Quote:
Originally Posted by basschick
Too cold for that naked pussy of his... as close as Canada is, I think I'd opt for Mexico simply for the climate difference.
if the worst they can get you on is not making the records available during reasonable hours, don't you think they would move on to the next sure fire prosecution?Quote:
Originally Posted by basschick
I think a lot of webmasters should be more worried about how much content they have that will be un-usable under the new laws because they don't have access to all of the correct 2257 data. I know some that will have to throw away everything and start from scratch. It's definately going to change the way content providers and purchasers do business.
Just quoting Fisters post.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fister
As he said, as of yet, this is all speculation on the industry laywers parts, nobody knows what these new regulations entail because they havent been made public yet.
The sky isnt, hasnt, and potentially wont be falling.
At least wait until we know what we are going to have to deal with until proclaiming that as fact people.
of course industry lawyers want you to think the worst, thats how they make money, of course the FSC wants you to think the worst, thats how they get donations.
Why do we never hear from industry lawyers until THEY start the chicken little syndrome up? Could it be because it suits their finacial gains?
If you want to worry about these new 2257 regs, at least wait until they are published so you know what you need to be worried about, not what you are told by someone who GUESSED what you need to be worried about.
Regards,
Lee
I apologize that you feel insulted by what I said.Quote:
Originally Posted by basschick
my buisness and i will remain on "krypton!" , krypton is simply "changing it's orbit!"Quote:
Originally Posted by Huskyhunks
i don't see leaving the U.S immediately , i have more than just the "net!" so i won't starve! ( it may cut into my traveling budget though! ) i will just have to see where this goes and/or get the "numbers!" worked out here!
if i were to leave the U.S it wouldn't be countries that are "U.S friendly" and/or "influenced" ( canada/philipines/puerto rico/etc. ) and it would have to have a "burger-king" cause i would still want it my way!
jim
Well I think you are wasting time mulling over a pure hypothetical. You can mull What If scenarios all day -- like what if the Jewish population of Los Angelas County showed up at Hamburger Mary's and ordered blintzes - there would be mass chaos. And it could in theory happen.
Amongst other things, the government cannot just invent a thousand imperious regulations over a business one day..... if the 2257 regulations are as onerous as some say, then that flat out equates to a taking.
If they are as far reaching as some claim, thay will be found unconstitutional.
And to those of you thinking about Canada, this is a nice time to point out that the USA's constituion far greater protects freedoms of speech then Canada's, and our bill of rights and judicial review process is far more mature then Canada's. We do not have censorship boards here. That means the KKK and Nazis can march down your main street, or, moving to another free speech angle, magazines and websites depicting gay sex can be published. (the neo-nazis cannot legally march in Canada, if memory serves, or something I forget)
Remember your political government class, a parliamentary government system can radically change laws... in theory. Compare that to the US system of checks and balances. Witness how 2257 was legislatively passed in the 1990s, but there has never been a single case of enforcement purely because of our constitutional process.
If the Canadian governemt passed something like 2257, I do not think the courts there would have the same power to review the law like the courts in the states can.
Steve
PS: I'm not saying the United States is a panacea, but I'm just not the kind of guy who insists the glass is perpetually half empty. :elf:
LOL! Funniest shit I've heard all day!!!Quote:
Originally Posted by desslock
Rocky
Great post desslock but, this administration has done everything it can to bring this country back to a victorian frame of mind and destroy our freedoms and rights. And the courts, which were our allies, are now under great pressure to kowtow to this administration and start towing the party line. I guess I'm just a 'glass half empty' kinda guy. :(Quote:
Originally Posted by desslock
I've always had a "fuck off" attitude towards the government, and the regulations, blah blah blah. To a certain extent I still do. The sky isn't falling, and Canada seems like a nice place to live and has it's own problems just like every country out there.
Unfortunately, I was born in the US and not quite as enthusiastic about it as Bruce Springsteen. If I could move in a day, I would. Probably to Europe, Amsterdam, Paris, those types of places but it takes alot of money. I also can't just tell my partner, "we're going to (some other country)" and pack your stuff.
So, alot of things keep me here in San Francisco. I'm learning to like it here and at least gays and lesbians have alot of say in what goes on in their world here. Maybe that will have to be good enough for me right now.
The aggressiveness and tone of this administration is gaining ground because this country is on a "moral" crusade right now. Practicing hypocrasy is so much more prevelent than democracy in this country. I don't see an end to it.
Well I guess I better work on complying as it pertains to my particular situation. The amateurs come down again, the boring models take center stage. The more things change, the more they stay the same...
i don't think i'm wasting my time considering alternatives and possibilities of things that the government has already expressed a strong interest in making the law.
if what i am most concerned about doesn't happen, cool. but some of it will happen, or there would be no changes to 2257 at all. since we have very little time, playing with each proposed change in your head lets you make some decisions in advance. 'cause we will only have 30 days from publicaction.
after all, that's what the free speech coalition is doing. they have most of their injunction already written AND are expecting to go with it - and they don't know for sure what will be changed in 2257.
Don't bring Bruce into this. He has never been a 'rah rah USA all of the way' kind of guy. "Born in the USA" is a bittersweet song, not the National Anthem part 2.Quote:
Originally Posted by Huskyhunks
Btw, I am NOT a Bruce Springsteen fan.