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I for one am proud to be an American, All you from other countries know if you where in real trouble we would be the first to have your back!! :love: :love: :love: :love:
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I for one am proud to be an American, All you from other countries know if you where in real trouble we would be the first to have your back!! :love: :love: :love: :love:
Maxpower - I'm with you all the way mate.
I'm not a fan of American bashing at all and believe me that being an American and living in Australia I get shit from everyone I meet because I'm American.Quote:
Originally Posted by maxpower
I think you're being oversensitive again regarding this post.
You need to remember that not only American was a part of monitoring the SWIFT transactions, many countries are :biker:
I am not a fan of Bashing Americans either - I am a fan of "Bashing Bush Administration", and I make a huge difference there.
From what I hear many many US American people are very unhappy with their president and can't wait until he's finally gone. Then the world has to wait what comes next.
I am also not only upset by what the USA do or do not do but also what my country comes up with bright ideas or the European Union as a whole (like saving telecommunication data for up to 2 years - including who calles whom, how long, from where, SMS-mails, internet connections (time and duration), IP addresses...)
Ya you guys are right I did go a bit far, but the American anthem was playing on TV when I said that :) I hate Bush too, but he’s a dead duck, its over for him I would really be shocked if he could accomplish even one more real thing in this whole term. In another couple of year we will have a new president to bitch about, “God I miss Clinton” its just the allot of the American people get really conservative in a time of war or attacks, but when this crap is relatively over, their will be a big backlash. Bush will go down in history as one of the worsted presidents we ever had, other than invading Iraq I think any president would do the same as him, if not more. Its just some people give him credit for just doing what anyone would do, hell even I would have gone into Afghanistan. When the attack first happen and we had air support in the area I as president would have been on the seen with in a few hours to reassure people, I know it would have been a bit of a risk but that’s part of the job. I would not have been running and hiding like that pussy did.
First of all, for the record, the government tracking financial records is not illegal. Sad to say, but we do not have very much financial privacy, particularly in the US. And that is not a "Bush Administration thing".... the IRS has a very long arm, which has gotten longer and longer following laws passed in the 1980s and 1990s.Quote:
Originally Posted by DEVELISH
As an example of US gov money tracking, if you go to a casino in Las Vegas, and spend over several hundred dollars, they take down your ID and social security number. (this does not happen in most other countries) Your income is tracked, numbered and reconciled.
Also, Squirt has expressed several times on GWW an outrage of the government tracking money wired from outside the United States. Well, for argument's sake - when you physically cross in the United States, you are asked if you have anything to declare, and that's includes the money you are bringing in. What's the difference?
So look -if you suddenly have a newfound outrage over this policy, I suggest that you examine the lifetime of granting such powers to the government for the past decades. Our country's system of progressive income taxes, capital gains taxes and death taxes, etc. enforced by the Internal Revenue Service will by defination mean that the government must relentlessly follow your financial life in order for it to collect its revenue.
(This is why replacing a progressive income tax with a national sales tax is a structural reform that which would significantly enhance financial privacy, which I've always supported)
Steve
I'm not outraged and haven't expressed my views on the government tracking money but for the first time, which has been in this thread.Quote:
Originally Posted by desslock
I would personally love to see you travel overseas Steve and constantly defend our country to people who've been the victim of us dominating the world in everything from Satelite communications, TV, internet and radio to computers and technology.
Back on topic: Saying everything is just as it has been for years, which is usually your argument on everything, is a cop out.
You stated "Sad to say, but we do not have very much financial privacy, particularly in the US. And that is not a "Bush Administration thing".... the IRS has a very long arm, which has gotten longer and longer following laws passed in the 1980s and 1990s."
Well your beloved Treasury Secretary John Snow said specifically that the program is not "data mining or trolling through the private financial records of Americans" so you're comparing apples to oranges.
This NEW program (since 2001) has no court approved warrants, or subpoenas to examine banking records but used a BROAD SUBPOENA to SEARCH records. This all is currently legal because of the BUSH ADMINISTRATIONS EMERGENCY POWERS granted in 2001. This IS a Bush administration thing, contrary to your previous statement that it's not. This administration answers to nobody on this program. There are no checks and balances.
Again, I'm not outraged. This is what extremely conservative administrations to do. I used to count myself as not really liberal or conservative, but since Bush has come into office I see myself more liberal these days. :king:
Well I think that this SWIFT program has debatable merits, and I emphasize the word debatable. I am not so sure this is all due to "Bush emergency powers." The United States has passed numerous money laundering laws
over the past twenty years... mostly in the name of tracking drug money.
The law requiring you ID and send a special form to the IRS if you spend more than $10,000 on anything (like buying a car) is the product of a late 1980s "reform" bill. Aggressively following the cash you spend in casinos is a product of the mid 1990s. We have been yielding lots of privacy to the US Dept of Treasury for years now. That is a consequence of the particular revenue tax system that they are obliged to enforce.
Now this all nicely skirts a reality, which is there is lots of cash sitting around in Saudi Arabia and other neighboring countries which gets zapped to places like London so that terrorists there can build their bomb supplies to blow up the Underground. Furthermore muslims move to France, the Netherlands, Denmark, etc, set up ghettos of sharia rule. Unlike typical ethnic immigrants moving to the US over the years, who leave home and stay in their new country, these people are different. For example, there are more direct airline flights from Oslo to Pakistan than to the United States. They maintain very strong financial links to their home countries. How should our Western governments respond to that?
For me, it's a complex question.
I live in Australia and have very strong financial links to the U.S. and the Australian government doesn't do anything about it because there is no need to, just as there's no need for the U.S. to see SWIFT transactions around the world for non U.S. citizens.Quote:
Originally Posted by desslock
Those of us who have nothing to hide should be concerned that "emergency powers" have been in place for 5 years which have eroded our rights and granted the government a system with no checks and balances. That's the main point we should focus on regarding this SWIFT situation, that and the fact that our foreign government has been sticking it's nose into non U.S. citizens banking matters which is unethical at the very minimum.
It's actions like these that are pushing our allies farther from our side and into a more neutral stance, as has been shown in recent months.
At the bare minimum can you concede that something doesn't have to affect you in a negative way in the immediate future to be wrong and/or unethical?
You do realize that when you have something, and it's taken away, that the other has more power, as they now have what you no longer do?
Our constitution was created by the people, for the people, not to control the people. Our constitution was created to grant us rights, not take them away. Our government is here to serve us, not put us in servitude.