CCBill vs. Epoch (My Experiences)

I have to agree with Lee that it's awfully suspicious that, immediately after all the Epoch people get back from the show in Amsterdam, the cavalry comes out (including a ton of people who never post regularly) in favor of Epoch. It just sounds awfully orchestrated.

I haven't "fanned the flames" on the Epoch situation for a while because I briefly spoke to Patrick a couple weeks ago before he was leaving for Amsterdam, and we made arrangements to talk once he gets back.

I for one would like to see the entire situation resolved to everyone's satisfaction. I agree with Lee that Epoch's complete lack of any comment on the situation is deplorable, but I suspect that it was done on advice from another organization.

As for CCBill technical support, it's always been nothing but exemplary. In most cases, even with the most complicated things, I call, the first person who answers the phone digs into it, we work through it, and it's done. I have *never* had to wait for support from CCBill, and *never* had them blame us (unless it was legitimately a problem on our end.)

As for CCBill saying homophobic things... sorry but I call BS on that, and I agree with Patti that if a single rep said something to that effect, the department manager should immediately have been contacted. I have worked with many, many of the CCBill tech staff and spoken at length with nearly all of the sales staff, and I have never felt the slightest sense of homophobia or disrespect from anyone there. Yes, it's possible there are one or two "bad apples" - they have been hiring a lot of new people - but that would, I'm sure, be dealt with swiftly and effectively if it were brought to the attention of the appropriate people.

Hopefully we will find out the truth about the whole sordid Gay Phoenix Forum/ AVN Summit mess before too long, and the REAL culprit can be revealed.

correction to my earlier post.

after doing some checking, it appears that epoch DOES now allow affiliates to merge accounts and that they do not hold a reserve and haven't done so for a while.

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Originally Posted by djdez

Lee, You've got this 100% incorrect and its been made clear several times that Rainey went to work for epoch because she wanted a change. You of all people should understand that affiliate work burns you out.

Just to be clear Rainey approached Patrick for an open position. Patrick then called Harlan, David and I. As most people, he was stunned that Rainey was looking to move on. We've always been great friends with Patrick and he told us that he informed Rainey that he could not hire her without our blessing. As the story goes, we gave our blessing and remain very good friends Patrick, Joel, Rainey et al.

I don't like speaking for other people, but I do know that it was Patrick that approached Joel for a job, when he decided to leave ccbill. It was not the other way around.

Most likely this is the first time that the above was phrased the way it was. Regardless, it was not for your concern. Noone on this board or any one that does not include the companies involved have any right to know anything in this regard. Nonetheless, I hope this clears up this issue once and for all.

Perhaps if you avoid using your accusatory speach, you might actually get responses. As it is, and as it was in the aforementioned...its the sound bites that matter for the drama queens. Not the facts. The fact is that towards the end of the thread you're referring to, a good number of people were starting to see that the picture that was being painted for us by ccbill may actually not be, ahem, forthcoming.

Personally, I've never had a problem with epoch. I have had several problems with ccbill. Generally, they have been rectified. However, the last issue that I had with them I consider closed, but it still leave a very bad taste in my mouth. When a client of theirs made libelous statements publicly in email to 3rd parties and on this very board that (paraphrasing here) ' I know you're using underage models because I know the guy in one of the photosets that I stole from you', there is absolutely no excuse. CCBill should have terminated that client which they refused to do. Not because of their libelous actions towards us, but that at best he was not being honest, admitted to stealing content or worse he basically said he would knowingly use underage content. On the other hand Verotel, terminated that client immediately after he 'REPLIED TO ALL' in the dmca letter i sent him, his host and processors. I didn't even have to ask Verotel to do it, they did within 15 minutes of that webmaster's email to me that they were cc'd on.

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Bravo, Joe. Though isn't it amusing how this great post seems to have gotten lost in all the bitterness still being tossed about on this board?

Again, I think it's really important for anyone in this business to make sure they have the FACTS before they start tossing about potentially damaging accusations in a public forum.

Patrick and Rainey are not impressionable 5-year-olds. They are both adults who are old enough to make their own decisions in life. I have a very hard time believing that either one of them let Epoch "strong-arm" them into leaving behind their jobs at CCBill and PrideBucks, respectively. The truth is, people generally take new jobs because they are looking out for themselves and were ready to make a change. To accuse Epoch of poaching employees is not only libelous, but it's also insulting to Patrick and Rainey as mature individuals who are old enough to make their own decisions based on what they want for their own lives.

Threads like this one prove that when it really comes down to it, the message boards are really just places for bitter old self-righteous queens who are obviously insecure to feel better about themselves by stirring up drama about stuff that's ultimately none of their frickin' beeswax.

Okay, I'm done arguing in defense of myself.

Epoch never asked me, they never demanded me, and they never paid me to post anything I've stated on this forum posting.

I'm now to the point that I don't want to reply anymore because your not reading what I have had to say. That's your problem, not mine.

If you guys want to continue "fighting" and being drama queens, your going nowhere but around and around and around and around in circles.

Later

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Originally Posted by XXXWriterDude

Patrick and Rainey are not impressionable 5-year-olds. They are both adults who are old enough to make their own decisions in life. I have a very hard time believing that either one of them let Epoch "strong-arm" them into leaving behind their jobs at CCBill and PrideBucks, respectively.

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I am one of the people who made statements to the effect that stealing employees is not OK. And I stand by the statement. I've had to deal with headhunters attempting to steal my employees at various companies, and I think that, in general, they are the scum of the earth.

But companies contacting other industry people that they meet through shows and such is in a different category; if someone is unhappy or ambivalent enough to want to make a change, that's a little bit different, and that sort of thing goes on all the time, both in our industry and in most others. If it's handled appropriately, I don't see much of a problem with it.

Now of course, if Patrick and Rainey each contacted Epoch first, that does change the picture considerably... but what's really interesting here is that this could VERY easily have been disclosed at the outset to quell the concerns that were arising, and would have painted a completely different picture.

So Either Epoch has the absolute worst PR representation on the planet working for them (which I'm beginning to believe) or the entire story about who contacted who was fabricated to try and do damage control. (Also possible, but, given the parties involved, considerably less likely.)

As gossipy as the gay community is, companies should know better than to try to simply be silent on issues like this. Transparency is always the best course of action. Here's hoping that this incident, once resolved, will lead to greater transparency, so that those who are dealing with good and honest intentions can be seen for who they are, and those who are not so honorable can also be seen for who they are.

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Originally Posted by basschick

after doing some checking, it appears that epoch DOES now allow affiliates to merge accounts and that they do not hold a reserve and haven't done so for a while.

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Besides a recent strange business practice written about, Basschick reveals that Epoch, after many years, is FINALLY offering services to the small webmaster.

Thanks again for revealing such a news worthy Epoch change Basschick.

GREAT NEWS. Surprised I never read it here....
or in any of the Gay Webmaster forums that I read.

Blatant cheerleading is always tiresome.

That comment isn't directed so much at Seb... more in Lee's direction. Yeah, we get it. You hate Epoch and CCbill can never make a wrong move.

The truth is, as processors, both have strengths and weaknesses. But they both offer comparable services. And it seems that the most successful people have at least tried them both... and decided to use them both or the one that worked best for them.

Lee, have you even tried Epoch in the past 5 years? I bet if your revenue went up 15% or more, you would change your tune. Not that I'm suggesting that Epoch would perform that well for you. But hey, you never know until you've tried. Then I bet this whole Gay Forum controversy would fade from your mind. Because isn't that what it's all about... making more money and having fun while doing it?

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Originally Posted by gaybucks_chip

Now of course, if Patrick and Rainey each contacted Epoch first, that does change the picture considerably... but what's really interesting here is that this could VERY easily have been disclosed at the outset to quell the concerns that were arising, and would have painted a completely different picture.

As gossipy as the gay community is, companies should know better than to try to simply be silent on issues like this. Transparency is always the best course of action. Here's hoping that this incident, once resolved, will lead to greater transparency, so that those who are dealing with good and honest intentions can be seen for who they are, and those who are not so honorable can also be seen for who they are.

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Chip, sorry, but I totally have to disagree with you on this. You talk like it's everybody's business to know what goes on behind closed doors when employees are hired. The way I see it, who gives a shit??? Honestly, who fucking cares why Rainey and Patrick went to Epoch? Frankly, that is between Epoch and Rainey and Patrick, and it's not for any of us to judge or condemn.

I'm really sick of everybody feeling like they should have a say in how other people run THEIR businesses.

We know what we NEED to know: Patrick and Rainey quit their jobs and went to Epoch, where they both now seem very happy. Even if Epoch DID contact them first and offer them buttloads of money to join their team, that's not for us to pick apart on a public forum.

Sorry if I come off as bitchy, but honestly, I just don't know where this industry gets off spreading all this senseless, stupid gossip around the Net when, in the long run, it just doesn't fucking matter.

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Originally Posted by SebSloPro

Okay, I'm done arguing in defense of myself.

Epoch never asked me, they never demanded me, and they never paid me to post anything I've stated on this forum posting.

I'm now to the point that I don't want to reply anymore because your not reading what I have had to say. That's your problem, not mine.

If you guys want to continue "fighting" and being drama queens, your going nowhere but around and around and around and around in circles.

Later

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For the record, I wasn't directing my other comments at you.

i've never understood the epoch vs ccbill hullabaloo.

which company to use or not as the case may be is a business decision. nothing more, nothing less.

at the end of the day, the only thing i would care about would be which company increases my bottom line.

aka capitalism 101

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Originally Posted by XXXWriterDude

Sorry if I come off as bitchy, but honestly, I just don't know where this industry gets off spreading all this senseless, stupid gossip around the Net when, in the long run, it just doesn't fucking matter.

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It does matter if companies are going to hold themselves out publicly as working to bring the community together while instead working behind the scenes to splinter and damage the community and its resources for their own selfish interests, then that sort of information most certainly needs to be brought out.

Otherwise, the community as a whole suffers.

I do not believe that Epoch was itself responsible for this, but someone was. It would be nice to have those details made public by those who know, so that businesses can choose who they associate and do business with armed with the knowledge that they might be doing business with a company that says one thing and does another.

That, in my book, is why it matters.

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Originally Posted by gaybucks_chip

That, in my book, is why it matters.

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But Ken doesnt see why it matters because he works for one of the companies involved in the whole nasty mess... A company that, just like Epoch, has kept quiet about it all hoping its going to go away.

Regards,

Lee

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Originally Posted by Richard Craver

i've never understood the epoch vs ccbill hullabaloo.

which company to use or not as the case may be is a business decision. nothing more, nothing less.

at the end of the day, the only thing i would care about would be which company increases my bottom line.

aka capitalism 101

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Well, I agree with you to a point, but I think there should be a balance between just looking out for your bottom line and also looking out for the industry and best practices. Carrying or distributing bareback content might be very profitable, but you have to ask yourself if you want to possibly contribute to eroticizing behavior that can in many cases be life-threatening. I even understand why people were/are so pissed off about the Gay Phoenix Forum being canceled due, IN PART, to the scheduling of the GAYVN Retreat. The GPF was an AWESOME show, and I myself am very sad to see it go under. Knowing some of the backstage drama going on between the various companies doesn't help the situation either. But I was told last September, before the first GPF even happened, that it was likely that there wouldn't be a second one--and not because AVN or any other business wanted to crush CCBill's show.

Still, I think people need to put stuff like this in perspective and consider what's really important to their businesses in the long run, and also, frankly, whether any of this stuff is really any of their business. All this "Did you hear about Missy Lou's affair with the gardener" gossip-mill shit is just getting really, really old. It sounds like a bunch of old hens clucking about what's going behind the closed doors of their neighbors, tsk-tsk-tsk'ing their way into an uproar over stuff they don't really have any business knowing--not to mention spreading rumors about on a public forum. Talk about bad form. Sometimes the level of self-righteousness and cattiness makes my stomach turn. That's not what I call "best practices" by any stretch.

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Originally Posted by Lee

But Ken doesnt see why it matters because he works for one of the companies involved in the whole nasty mess... A company that, just like Epoch, has kept quiet about it all hoping its going to go away.

Regards,

Lee

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Lee, how many times have I objected to you or anyone else calling people out on this forum that had NO ties to AVN? Many, many times. I guarantee you that, regardless of whether I was working for any company that was being libeled in a public space, I would still object. No matter who is getting picked on, bad form is simply just bad form. So kindly refrain from using that tired "Ken is biased" crap on me.

I am, and will always, remain objective, regardless of who signs my paycheck. That's why God gave me free will and the power of intelligence, thank you very much.

I like the fact that Ken constantly addresses these issues and never backs down or plays the victim. It's nice seeing strong characters speak their mind and make solid points :groovy: