What is it about this business?

Hey Dzine,

I understand where you are coming from in relation to the whole two levels thing but....

I still see myself as a reasonably new webmaster - and as I see it despite posting on this board and having done business with a few people here nobody has ever actually met me.

Now I'm not suggesting by any means that I'm dodgy or anything of the sort but just how do you propose that people prove that they are genuine when they are a new webmaster - and therein lies the problem with an adult business that is done almost exclusively electronically.

The other way that I see it is something similar to the ebay system (UGGH) I can't believe I just mentioned their name. Anyway maybe once people have done business with someone they could post an evaluation of some sort searchable by ICQ #, AIM handle or similar. Thereby compiling a database of evals or even a short pick from 0-5 stars or something.

My thoughts - Allan

Allan,

I hear exactly what you're saying and I agree with you. But word gets around. I was talking on AIM just yesterday, as a matter of fact, with someone who has been chatting/dealing with you and they said you were a nice/cool guy. So I had already tucked that piece of information away. :)

But you're right, in the earlier stages of webmastering, it would be tough until people got to know you. My experience here on the board was that this naturally happens anyway. I was here a good five or six months posting and asking questions, people were generally friendly and answered my stuff when they could. But after I had been here for a few months and everyone started getting used to me being here (and I didn't appear to be a nutbar) then people started extending other courtesies to me, like putting my banner on their site, giving me TGP partner status, etc.

BTW, update on the above situation I wrote about earlier. I wrote the webmaster and cited my rights under the DCMA 1998 (he had cut and paste text that I wrote) along with some rather heavy-handed threats about the extent to which I'd go to protect it, and I got a reply within the hour. The offending text was removed from his site.

Cheers
Dzinerbear

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Originally posted by Dzinerbear
I wrote the webmaster and cited my rights under the DCMA 1998 (he had cut and paste text that I wrote) along with some rather heavy-handed threats about the extent to which I'd go to protect it, and I got a reply within the hour. The offending text was removed from his site.

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Good to hear!

Cheers,

Allan

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(b) I'll be damned if Bec's going to beat me in the longest post contest with her BDSM thread

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LMAO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :goon:

As an affiliate program the fraud is just insane. We have webmasters trying everything possible to screw us out of money. We have lost thousands and thousands of dollars because of this and there is really not anything we can do about it. Just one person screwed us out of 3,000 this year. I think everyone in this industry has been screwed one way or another. I like money just like everyone else but I am not going to screw over anyone to make a buck.

Mark

This is indeed an interesting thread. It is sad to see so many scammers out there and it is hard to find the really honest webmasters sometimes, but I'd argue that having a two tiered system would risk becoming to much of a clique.

I'd also argue that simply because a person has been in the game a long time doesn't make them reputable. I can't even count how many times I have heard some person say 'ive been at this a long time and so i know what i am talking about' when in essence they are merely trying to bully you into buying into their crap.

Problem with any 'black list' is that unless the person being given a black tick can respond, it is inheritantly an unfair system.

It becomes too easy to 'get even' with someone if you are one of the 'in crowd' and as Luke said, there is no way to know really who is and who isn't. One person can say nothing but great things about one while another had a really bad experience, so who judges?

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Originally posted by gaystoryman
It becomes too easy to 'get even' with someone if you are one of the 'in crowd' and as Luke said, there is no way to know really who is and who isn't. One person can say nothing but great things about one while another had a really bad experience, so who judges?

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Excellent point.

My rant was largely out of complete and utter frustration at getting screwed as a result of my success. I worked hard to get here, why shouldn't others work just as hard. Unfortunately the world is full of people always looking for the easy way.

But I learned on the weekend that playing hard ball and sending threatening e-mails works wonders.

I agree on your points about cliques. Very well thought out post.

Cheers
Michael

You know i think this thread is a perfect example of why i value many of the friendships i have built with the GWW community members..

On almost any other community forum a thread of this nature would have turned into a pissing match by now.. this one hasnt, it speaks volumes for each and every one of you.

Thank you all for great people who i value as friends and colleagues :thumbsup:

Regards,

Lee

Awwww, Lee, you made me feel all warm and stuff. Shucks babe, we all love you too... (Or wanna spank you);)

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Unfortunately the world is full of people always looking for the easy way.

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That's so true -- just seems that the world is full of a generation now that didn't get taught better behaviors. Stuff I'd of got the stuffing slapped out of me for doing as a kid WHEW!! ... kids now get away with things I'd never of been allowed to do, back talk teachers, drugs, show disrespect for my elders, etc.

I worry about what our world values will be even 10 years from now ... it's a scary mental scenario.

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Originally posted by Bec
That's so true -- just seems that the world is full of a generation now that didn't get taught better behaviors.

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I have to say whilst I understand the point you are trying to make it is a generalisation. It is not just to do with the kids but also the parents and discipline.

I think I turned out OK and I do believe you are referring to my generation Bec.

Cheers,

Allan

Allan,

I think the point Bec was trying to make was that for the most part, todays younger generation (myself included with this generalization) d tend to get away with more shit than we would have had we been born a few years earlier.

Case in point here, my younger sister of 4 years, constantly gets away with stuff that i tried to do and got punished for, the differences even in four years is quite astounding.

Now, take those differences in the generation gap and apply them to the webmaster community as a whole, im sure youll see that for the most part, with EXTREMELY sweeping generalizations most webmasters between the ages of 20 and 30 are nothing more than 'pimp' wannabes who wouldnt know how to do business or what business was if it came right up to them and smacked them in the face.

For that generalized group working as a webmaster is an easy hobby which gets them free beer, food and in some unfortunate instances, sex.

Im sure Bec would also agree with me on the fact that you are one of the individuals who the generalizations we both made in our posts do not apply to :)

Regards,

Lee

Actually, Allan the generation this ideology started with is Generation X, my generation.

Things changed a lot as time has gone by but I can tell you it started with the "ME" generation, when all we could think about is how much stuff can we get and for least amount of effort.

And now those Gen X'ers are parent of a new group who ar elooking for it faster and for free.

Luckily I have parents, who weren’t going to buy into the Gen X mentality and pretty much showed me what life is like if I didn’t work hard and make something for myself.

Unfortunately many in my group didn't get that. And it shows not only online, but offline as well.

My best,
GA

***WARNING 40 PAGE REPLY AHEAD***

Michael I totally understand where your rant starts and how it will continue – and how it is SO justified.

I’m going to climb into my cyber rocking chair and start with my dreaded… “When I first started in this business…” I know so many people hate when I say that but it has a lot to do with my own frustrations and successes in this industry.

When I started in (and the reason I got into) this business was the Internet was about cooperation. You rarely competed with someone you would work together. I was fresh from the cutthroat Machiavellian life of Wall Street. And cooperation was something I tried to so hard to do when I was there. So it appealed to me so very… VERY much.

If you had an idea you could talk to someone about it and most of the time you found someone to back you – monetarily, with hosting or some content images and the like. And if you were opening a site that was competition you would easily get a link from your competitors to give it a try.

One free site easily made $6K in a bad month – and when a fellow webmaster or webmistress was getting married, had a baby, was moving or the like we would all point traffic to them for a week or two knowing it easily meant they made a few grand more - because traffic was more potent than an envelope or a nicely wrapped vase. And since many of us couldn’t be together we did what we could from a distance.

When I decided I needed a change, I got a call from Rick who owned YNOT back then and had a job offered to me without an interview, because people I knew had called him a recommended me. It was the best thing I ever did for myself and the best thing friends could do for me.

When a colleague needed to move out of her house quickly, leaving a bad marriage and with her child, she found a place with nothing in it. The next day she had four delivery trucks and every FedEx and UPS truck in the areas at her door - all filled with furniture, bedding, appliances, food and more.

And if someone got screwed in a deal, you had at least 100 webmasters helping out, trying to make it right for each party.

Now let’s leave the melodramatic love fest and move forward a few years to see the advent of what we have today…

People hear that you can make a million dollars in one year in online adult and they begin to join up in droves. Big companies that were trusted are getting caught double billing members, in an attempt to make up for their gluttony, free sites that made us $6k a month were now barely making $100 a month.

The bottom line changed and you had to work harder for it now.

Those of us who had business plans and directions did what we planned on… Heads went down and we got down to the real work.

The ‘Million dollars a day’ folks started to scramble to make money; following in the footsteps of the double billers and new generation of scammers. And a lot of those honest hard workers we all knew were still spending like they were making it before – their expenses matched the good ole days and the incomes were based in the reality of the times. And, going from ‘having it all’ to ‘very little’ makes some people very desperate. There were more and more people who wanted to do it with little effort. (And in hind site, the effort they put into scamming the masses would have been better used in a long term, honest plan.)

We all did our part to self-monitor the industry… If you were a cheater, you were put on public lists all over the place. If you had a sponsor check that bounced everyone knew because there were sites to report it to. And if you shaved more than the norm, people posted it all over other sites.

The resource sites still went to bat for people… there was a time when I could write to a sponsor and say, “Hey it’s GA and I need your help working out a problem check for a webmaster…” and it would get a response and quickly resolved. Just the other day I sent an email out for someone here on GWW and the response I got was ‘it’s none of our business. Stay out of it.’ I didn’t stop, but I also haven’t heard anything else.

Then comes the GFY generation. A class of webmasters who have no real business in being in this business… their primary goals are to make beer money and get laid. And when they can’t get the most out of some company they bitch and whine about it publicly. Causing more harm than good - because others joining the industry only know what they do from places like GFY - and bitching, cheating and fucking people over becomes the norm.

So those hard working people like the group we have here, put their heads down and work harder to avoid these types of people. And in the mean time begin to form what I like calling families - meeting people on the boards, and getting to see them at shows or talking on the phone. We begin to trust those people. We each bring something different to the table that we can share in order help each other.

I, honesty, think it’s these ‘families’ that are going to succeed. It’s working together, in smaller groups that are going to win out over the loud-mouthed free loaders who want others to do it for them. It’s the families that are going to make the difference by (good or bad) keeping the cheaters out and working with the people who care and are willing to give back.

The web is a very hard place to endow trust to people. It’s no longer something that can be given freely to a name on a board. It’s a commodity of this industry that cannot be thrown around. It is to be earned.

Personally, I’ve become jaded. I want to know someone before I share what I know. I want to know that they are in it for the long run and not looking for me to do it for them. I can’t afford trusting someone off the bat like I did years ago, just to get screwed over, like I have been so many times.

I never wanted anyone to see that hardened side of me, here. I always wanted GWW to be a safe haven for those who took their business seriously – it’s what I ‘grew up with’ online - what I had the moment I started in this business. I wanted to preserve that environment. There has was always been a level of apprehension (maybe not the right word) before I would spill everything I had to share. I think I can safely say, once I knew someone is here and is part of the family - giving out answers or information is done freely and without expectation. And it’s not only me who does it. It’s part of who we are as a community. It’s what makes this group of people so great… and so dear to me. I know if I had to close the site tomorrow, it will be the same group of people I would work with and plan on working with for a long time.

Sorry I spilled all of this in your thread, Michael! LOL But this has been a something that has been bothering me for a very long time. If you hadn’t already guessed LOL

And this was such a good release. And it’s a release that I did not know I needed, until now.

DAMN this is a BOOK!

As always…

My best,
Gary-Alan

Wow.

I am so glad to see your post.

When I started in this online industry, I was trying desperately to get out of the "adult" business. I was an outside player in 976 - doing production and recording for the "big boys". To be honest with you - the big boys in that industry were NOT nice people; I stood between them and the talent, and I didn't like it.

I learned HTML, and started doing real estate and legal sites and the like - and then someone came along and offered me complete artistic control to do an adult site - I ran that site for 7 years (I can't name it, but ya'll probably know it...).

The thing was, my experience with the adult industry in 976 and 900 made me not trust anyone in the industry. I did not network, I did not post, I did not ask for help. I kept my head down, my name off the paperwork and I did not make friends - because my expereince in adult had been so very bad, and to be honest, I wasn't ashamed of my work, but I was very shy about talking to people.

Well - long story short. Bad move. You see, my partner and I sold the site to someone I trusted, a non-adult player who HAD networked in the industry. He knew the few people I knew, and a whole lot of others, was charismatic and charming - and promised me the moon. I went with him partially because he was NOT an "adult" player.

When he took my site - and then refused to pay me - well, guess who had made the friends? Guess who was known? Not me - and the people we knew in common said; "It's none of our business - and besides - Mr. So and So said that you've been saying bad things about us...."

Now my site - the one I built over 7 years of my life - is not being taken care of. It isn't being updated. They have removed the members forum, all email links, and the ability for members to cancel. Their stated opinion is: "All we need to do is advertise, the members are just wankers anyway...." My site has now become worthless - it has lost all the members I worked so hard to get, and they will never come back.

Moral of the story: network. Make friends. Build trusted relationships. Act ethically and morally in all you do. Stick up for those who are being screwed. Do favors with no expectation of reward. Share information. Treat your customers very well - because then, when you recommend someone else's site - you'll BOTH have a new member. There are MORE than enough surfers, there is more than enough money (most people who buy memberships to sites buy more than one membership...) - and quite honestly - one of the reasons we are in this business is because most of us can't stand the way "real-world" business is done.

I am now back on my feet - and the reason? After this all happened, in my despair, I started posting. And the offers came in - free hosting here, free content there, moral support getting me through my first few months of poverty - even offers of personal loans - and massive assistance when I DID land my new client (which ended up making ME look good, and won me a permanant paycheck) - and now I am in a position to help those who helped me.

I learned a very valuable, (though painful and expensive) lesson. :)