Did I not warn you!!! That's it! ATTACK, PAUL... ATTACK!!!!!!
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Did I not warn you!!! That's it! ATTACK, PAUL... ATTACK!!!!!!
http://www.paullynde.info/images/Pau...n%20Calvin.jpg
Just figured you'd want it with something that didn't have a slow leak.Quote:
Originally Posted by XXXWriterDude
Which means, of course, I won't be available on Bean Night.:joker:
You know, I honestly don't mind if people criticize Madonna, as long as they do it fairly. My biggest problem with most criticism about Madonna is that it's NOT fair. They judge her differently than they judge other artists. It's like she can do no right in their eyes, and that pisses me off to no end. I'm not blind by admiration for her so much so that I can't acknolwedge that she's done a few things she should be embarrassed by (in fact, I'm the first to admit that the lyrics for one of the new songs on her record are positively abysmal and that a few of her movies are rotten tomatoes), but that's another thing I appreciate her for--she's not afraid to fail big. She takes major risks, and she puts herself out there, she makes statements, she fucks with the establishment, she talks about things like love and unity, she fights for equal rights, she advocates personal freedom, and she writes damn good music and puts on damn good shows along the way. Occasionally she says something stupid or writes embarrassingly juvenile lyrics or comes off as a bit arrogant or bitchy, but she is a consumate artist who has seriously earned the right to do so.
Last night I was out with a buddy and was playing the new CD, and 10 seconds into every song, he had a reason cooked up for why it sucked--without even listening to them. "She's ripping off so and so here, she sounds like a skank there," etc. etc. It was infuriating. Never mind that rappers and TONS of other artists sample stuff in their songs. No one says anything when they do it. But Madonna does it and she's "a ripoff artist" who's "stealing" other people's songs. Whatever. People really just have it out for her, and it's usually demonstrated by their lack of fair, constructive criticism. That's what I am annoyed by.
And for the record, my annoyance really has nothing to do with Madonna specfically; I just don't appreciate closed-mindedness in any form. Even with things that annoy me personally, I recognize that there are many people out there who appreciate it, and I can see the artistic value in a lot of stuff, even if it doesn't personally speak to me. I am really annoyed by the Beastie Boys, but I actually acknowledge that they are pretty good musicians who write pretty decent songs. I try to give credit where credit is due. But it's the people who get an idea in their head about a certain artist and then make blanket asssertions about everything that artist does that really piss me off.
But all is good. I listen to it, and I just walk away knowing, "Oh, you're SO wrong." ;)
Well, I got treated to the new album last night.
I'll tell you what I think about it later. :jasun:
Madonna started out alone and broke in a tiny apartment with a couple synthesizers and drum machines. I'll always be a fan because of what she pulled off in those first few years. I understand what you mean though if you've never been a fan of her work. Socially it starts to be like Christianity on a much smaller scale. You can't escape it, you're expected to enjoy it, and there is no arguing against it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jasun
I can understand where you guys are coming from. I have a deep seeded love for offbeat, strange movies. I recently came across an independant video called "A Family Finds Entertainment" which looks like someone's drug induced nighmare put onto DVD and I love it. But my friends laugh at me and act like I'm a total freak just because I love movies like this. They all groan the second I mention a movie I like and assume they are going to hate it, even though they know nothing about it. So when I like a really good movie, people tend to discount it right off the bat. You have to just take it with a grain of salt. I have other friends who like my kinds of movies so I know what to share with whom.
That's an interesting point. And it's true--you really can't argue with me about Madonna, because I will always be right. LOL! My problem with this is that it seems to be more about a certain faction of "straight-acting" gay dudes who have a problem with gay men having such intense fondness for disco divas. Inevitably the argument boils down to something like "I'm not one of those queens who obsesses over Cher, Bette Midler and Madonna." It seems more gay men have a problem with her because of what they perceive her to represent among the gay community as opposed to what she does as an artist.Quote:
Originally Posted by SLS
As you all know, since the world revolves around me, I used to write for a Heavy Metal Magazine.
Well, I heard from one of the guys today, and among other "How are you" questions he was like "So I can't wait to ask you what you think of the new Madonna single!!"
I told him I didn't like it and that I didn't know he was gay.
:thumbsup: :jasun:
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Originally Posted by WWC-DonMike
Yeah, I know what you mean. The other night, I had another friend over who is not a Madonna fan AT ALL, and I unknowingly put in the new CD and skipped to one of my favorite tracks on it. We were talking, so it took him a while to actually pay attention to the music, and then he was like, "This is good. Who is it?" I smiled, and he was like, "Oh no, it's not Madonna, is it?" I smiled even bigger. Then he went, "Well, I hate it." :)
And Ken... it really has nothing to do with how irritating Madonna fans may be.
I don't like Madonna because I dont' like the music and I think she's irritating.
It's got nothing to do with internalized homophobia and it's got nothing to do with me trying to prove that I'm "Straight acting". I know it's hard for Madonna fans to understand that not everyone likes Madonna, but I really don't like Madonna. Can't stand the music and I can't stand her voice.
Nothing to do with the gaggle of fans clamouring around her.
Really.
(and I do have a Bette Midler Record, TWO Cher records and Abba's Greatest Hits volume 2. So there.)
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Originally Posted by Jasun
Well maybe not YOU personally, but when I talk to some gay guys about her, you can hear the resentment creeping into their voices.
By the way, she has a MUCH better voice than Cher. Ack.
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Originally Posted by XXXWriterDude
Hey, I didn't say she did.. they both suck.
But whatever. It gets annoying when Madonna fans assume that the only reason people don't like Madonna is becuase of some character flaw other than good taste.
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Originally Posted by Jasun
Um, good taste? This coming from a JUDAS PRIEST fan? ;)
yup.
:jasun:
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Originally Posted by Jasun
I used to date a Judas Priest and Iron Maiden fanatic, and I remember him sitting me down and making me watch these horribly violent and macabre concert videos and he would jam out like crazy to them in his truck and he would pretend to play drums on my legs while he was driving, and it was all so endearing, I didn't have the heart to tell him his taste in music sucked. LOL! But he also loved Madonna, so I tried to develop an appreciation for those bands. I think I actually came to like one of their songs, but I've since forgotten which one it was.
You're making Paul mad!!!
http://static.flickr.com/17/19653879_4ac91ef71b_m.jpg
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Originally Posted by WWC-DonMike
Woo hoo, sounds like a movie I'd really like!
Thanks Mike.
I have similar likes, being 'off the beaten track' or away-from-mainstream stuff is what I look for, first. Yah, I'll still do HollyWood(HW) movies, but that is because I enjoy eye candy, but when it comes to brain candy HW offers me very little.
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Originally Posted by Paco
I LOVE big huge Hollywood blockbusters. LOVE THEM! That is, when they are well made. I grew up loving movies, and it was, in fact, the big Hollywood movies that made me fall in love with the movies in the first place. So I have always retained a fine appreciation for big spectacles and movies with lavish production values and budgets. At the same time, I am a huge fan of indie flicks as well. But I don't differentiate between Hollywood and indie, because to me, a good movie is a good movie, no matter how big its budget.
Crash was a "big Hollywood movie." And it's fucking brilliant. Ditto The Color Purple or Schindler's List or Saving Private Ryan, or... hell, there are a LOT of great grand-scale Hollywood movies.
Personally, I get really tired of people who are down on the Hollywood system, who automatically dismiss Hollywood movies because they came out of said system. Again, good entertainment is good entertainment. ;)
OK, so you used to date a Rock Dweeb. At least he wasn't one of those irritating Dancing Madonna fans who like to Vogue on the bus.Quote:
Originally Posted by XXXWriterDude
you gotta understand that 70s hair metal like that is just fun for me.. I'm mostly into bands like Soilwork, In flames, Arch Enemy and stuff like that.
I'm gonna guess you've never heard of most of them, and that's cool.. Mainstream commercial music just bores the snot out of me. I still can't tell the difference between Madonna and Britney and X-tina and all those other pop stars. There's a place for them and I can enjoy it in the same way I enjoy a popsicle, but I don't think it's fair that you lump all metal fans in with the one dork you went out with. And neither Priest or Maiden had violent or macabre concerts.. are yuou sure you weren't dating a GWAR fan?
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Originally Posted by Jasun
Where did you get that I was lumping anyone in with the guy I dated? Just b/cuz I mentioned him? I brought him up just b/cuz he had something in common with you, not for any other reason.
And yes, the concert did have EXTREMELY violent imagery. I'm positive it was a Maiden concert. The singer climbed up onto a spear and impaled himself with it. It was pretty sick. Blood and everything. Trust me, I know exactly what I'm talking about. It was Maiden.
I guess the way you view pop music is the way I view metal. It all sounds the same and it's all crap. :)
I don't know.. I've seen Maiden a few times and they never did anything like that... the most theatrical thing they did was have some flames and a guy in an 8-foot Zombie suit.
Gwar does the stuffr with blood (although it's all really corn syrup and stuff..) and impaling people on spears. To my knowledge, Maiden never did anything like that. Maybe your rock-dweeb boyfriend called them by the wrong name. And yes, GWAR sucks.
Maybe Maiden were different in the late 70s.
anyway, we're going to have to agree to disagree on this, I think.
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Originally Posted by Jasun
I suppose so, but I know my music, and this guy was an Iron Maiden FREAK. That was his band. That's like all he listened to for the most part, so I know I'm not mistaking it with anyone else. I remember watching the video and being horrified. Of course, Brad was smiling the whole time, knowing I was covering my eyes from fright. Haha.
I actually like a bit of metal, depending on the band. But I think the hardest I go is Guns 'N' Roses, back when they were still a GOOD band. But the more loud and insistent the music is, the less and less I like it. I like melody and stuff that you can sing along to, not screaming and macho posturing. :)
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Originally Posted by XXXWriterDude
not too much of a fan of that, either.. although I've never thought of Gunz'r'Roses as a "metal" band. They're in that same category of "Hard Rock" like AC/DC, Led Zeppelin and Zakk Wylde.
Most of the metal I listen to is quite melodic, actually.
I'm not down on big Hollywood movies, but at the same time it's a whole different ballgame when you talk about indie movies. At this point in time you would never see a major Hollywood studio do a movie like Edge of 17 or Boy's Don't Cry. Can you imagine a teen film like "She's All That" or "10 Things I Hate About You" with the main character being a gay teen? Hardly.
There's nothing wrong with Hollywood movies, but they have to pander to the largest audience possible. Ever try to cook for 20 people? You might start out with some really exotic dishes, but by the time you take everyone's dietary habits into consideration, you run the risk of making something that not everyone there will enjoy, or doing something a little more standard, and by the book so that everyone can basically have something they can all agree on. I kind of like seeing a movie that might not appeal to everyone from the hipsters in LA to the small town folk of Middle Amercia. But hey, I still like to eat popsicles, like Jasun said, and go and see a Hollywood movie. It's just not something I choose to make my main course.
I'm not saying I'm right or wrong, just stating my views.
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Originally Posted by WWC-DonMike
That's true, but of course, this year we have Brokeback Mountain coming out, and, while Focus Features is not what one would call a Hollywood powerhouse, it is certainly shaping up to be one of the biggest indie movie studios in town. Then again, scratch that; it's actually owned by Universal Pictures. :)
Maybe we should start a whole other thread about why I'm not going to Brokeback mountain.
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Originally Posted by Jasun
Yeah, I think hard rock is pretty much as far as I can tread on that side of the musical movement. I'm more the Hole/Nirvana/Queens of the Stone Age/Zepplin kinda ilk. The louder it gets, the more I run from it. ;)
See how it feels to have something you hold near and dear to your heart unfairly maligned and misunderstood? :)
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Originally Posted by Jasun
Hmmmm, well, that would be your loss, seeing as how it's one of the most brave, daring and humane movies I've seen in a long time, next to Crash.
I understand pop music, I just don't really like it much.
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Originally Posted by XXXWriterDude
I've seen enough gay romantic tragedies, thanks.. I just don't wanna sit there are watch two guys fall in love and then have to wait for the inevibale "I'm going back to girls" and the sad ending that comes with it. And I've only liked one Ang Lee movie, and that was a comedy.
Looking forward to Harry Potter and Narina, though.
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Originally Posted by Jasun
Well, to take it back to the original thread, Madonna may use pop music as her medium, but she is by far much more than just a simple pop musician. She's NOTHING like Britney or Christina; she's had a mission since day one. She doesn't just sing silly, badly written pop songs about love and strut around like some trashy little shameless tart like Britney. I hate it when these little pop tarts say they want to be the next Madonna. It's obvious they never actually paid any attention to what she was doing at all, b/cuz they don't display even an iota of the chutzpah or the social activism Madonna championed.
I really don't think that most people recognize just how incredibly influential and instrumental Madonna has been to not only pop music, but to social change. She got the country talking and debating about issues like promiscuity, homosexuality, lesbianism, feminism and sexual repression. Her career has been instrumental in opening people's minds about these very topics. That's why I say, love her or hate her, there's no denying that she's made huge strides for not only women in rock, pop music and music in general, but for the advancement of freer thinking. That's why I think certain artists--pop or not--really have the power to influence the world through their work. Madonna did that. And regardless of what some may think about some of the work itself, the result is certainly evident. And it's all good.
For me, when I was 14, I was horribly fucked up. I was sexually repressed in an abusive household in which sexuality was never talked about, and Madonna literally swept into my life via the television and gave me a crash-course education in personal liberation and freedom. I connected to her in a way I had never connected to any other artist. Women are traditionally trained not to express sexuality, lest they be labeled as a slut. For Madonna to break such social conventions was revolutionary for many, including me. I still hadn't come out until I was 20, which was when I saw Truth or Dare. And I personally never cared that the dancers in her movie all behaved like catty queens. I knew people who were just like that, and you're not going to find all that many "straight-acting" gay guys in the dancing world.
I mean, you take the video for "Like a Prayer," a bold and daring statement about racism in America and the way that organized religion has sanctioned it, and it's impossible--at least for me--to dismiss her as just a pop artist, or even as someone who only churns out "drek." Madonna has never turned out anything even close to drek. Drek would be Debbie Gibson or Tiffany or New Kids on the Block or Color Me Badd. Certainly Madonna would not fall into that category. I just don't think she gets the credit she deserves. I think most people, for whatever reason, just react to her, and they judge everything she does by their feelings about her rather than on the merits of the work itself. I can list many examples of unfair criticism that people readily heap upon Madonna that they would never say about one of their favorite artists who is guilty of exactly the same transgression.
But people always resent artists who are incredibly succcessful and who aren't afraid to make bold artistic statements. I see it all the time. People HATE Tim Robbins and Susan Sarandon now for the same reasons. Won't go see any of their movies because they find them to be "personally annoying." (Like they know them personally.) The same with U2. Once Bono started getting vocal, people started criticizing the music more harshly.
See, "good taste" dictates, to me, that people are discerning with their taste, true, but also it says that people with such taste also acknowledge that, even if a particular artist or genre of music doesn't speak to them personally, one can still recognize the merits of that artist or genre of music. And I honestly think that anyone with truly good taste would recognize the cultural significance of Madonna's career and the value found in her music. Again, even her harshest critics usually concede that she's been incredibly instrumental in pop music. Just one look at me--someone whose world was changed because of Madonna--is proof of this. And I'm not the only one. Which is why you can't argue with a true Madonna fan. ;)
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Originally Posted by Jasun
Huh??? Is that what you think the movie is about? Interesting. You know that it set in 1960, when gay people living openly gay lives was unheard of, right? And, while the film is definitely bittersweet and there is no happy ending, it is an incredibly hopeful movie in the long run. You've got it all wrong.
OK, well, I personally think that's blasphemy, but OK. LOL! Dude, Crouching Tiger! Sense and Sensibility! The Wedding Banquet. Brilliantly conceived and executed films, every one of them. I think he's one of our greatest directors around.Quote:
And I've only liked one Ang Lee movie, and that was a comedy.
Same here, though I'm very hesitant about Narnia. It's one of my favorite children's books, and it would be so easy to destroy it.Quote:
Looking forward to Harry Potter and Narina, though.
I've read the short story. I don't have it wrong. I get it that it's set in the 60s and everything. But I dont' wanna sit there and wait to see whatsisname get his heart broken.Quote:
Originally Posted by XXXWriterDude
I HATED Crouching Tiger. Every Character was either a boring asshole or a whiner. Lame Plot, silly fight scenes that just looked ridiculous (all those people with flailing arms swinging around on wires was just too much for me to not burst out laughing at). And I was so happy when that annoying girl killed herself at the end. I wanted to do it about 20 minutes into the movie. FUCK she was annoying. Didn't like Sense and Sensibility. The Ice Storm was OK, but too heavy handed and HULK was the dumbest turd I've ever seen. WEdding Banquet was mildly amusing.Quote:
Dude, Crouching Tiger! Sense and Sensibility! The Wedding Banquet. Brilliantly conceived and executed films, every one of them. I think he's one of our greatest directors around.
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Originally Posted by XXXWriterDude
No, but we laugh at you mercilessly behind your back (you should read some of the PMs I've had about this thread).
Look, I know that she's means a lot to you and you want to give her al the credit in the world, but most of us don't see it that way at all.
And never will.
And just because we don't see any difference between what she does and what Britney Spears does doesn't make us without taste.. We just view pop music as something different.
Well, then, if that's the case, well then, guess I don't have much need for those people now, do I? People who laugh at you behind your back are pretty fucking lame.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jasun
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Originally Posted by XXXWriterDude
Ken, that was a joke.. I think the only people still reading this thread are you, me and Don. And maybe Paco.
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Originally Posted by Jasun
Hmmm, interesting attempt at humor there, Jasun...
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Originally Posted by Jasun
Hey, how did you know? You watchin me? *Looking over my shoulder*
I'll admit I would like to know where this is heading, but have not replied as I do not wish to argue with Ken (or any person), nor do I want people to think I am jealous of a someone such as her (Reinhold Messner is the type of person I would be more inclined to be jealous of, if I even bothered with that feeling.) !
I'll buy that its' a bold and daring statement, but let's not forget that it was also a great big "fuck you" to Pepsi. You have to admit that it was a brilliant piece of PR and manipulation of the system. Sign a contract to have your new song released on a soda commercial, collect the giant hunk of cash, then immediately release a music video that will certainly piss off every Catholic in America, as well as several other religious folk, ensuring that Pepsi will pull the commercials and that you will recived the most amount of money ever paid for a single airing of a TV commercial. And they say she's not in it just for the money.Quote:
I mean, you take the video for "Like a Prayer," a bold and daring statement about racism in America and the way that organized religion has sanctioned it, and it's impossible--at least for me--to dismiss her as just a pop artist, or even as someone who only churns out "drek."
I feel I must make a note here. I'm not a Madonna hater. I actually admire her for the above mentioned stunt. I've talked before about how my favorite artist is Andy Warhol and he pulled shit like that all the time. He helped orchestrate the pop art movement and the hight of his popularity as an artist, he declared pop art to be dead and moved on to films. And then had the gall to release films that consisted of him turning on the camera and leaving the room so that the actors had to just make it up as they went along. My point is that there are people who felt Warhol was a genius as an artist and those who knew he was a genius as a bullshit artist. I love a lot of Madonna's music, and she's had some very artistic videos and performances, but don't act like she's not a bullshit artist. She's a total media manipulator who's every move is calculated to bring in the most income. Is there anything wrong with that? No. But let's call it like it is.
Her big cd launch is tonight. I listened to the album, and my favorites were Sorry, Forbidden Love, and Like It Or Not. The whole thing is great though, I think she's done a fantastic job.