*LOLOLOL*
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Originally Posted by Lee
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*LOLOLOL*
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lee
Well everyone already knew who it was judging by the PMs and ICQs i have gotten over the last hour or so LOLQuote:
Originally Posted by basschick
Regards,
Lee
as someone who has daily contact with our affiliates I can say I hate to do this, but sometimes it is absolutely unavoidable. I will give you a recent example and another close call.
recent example was one of our affiliates was sending out Spam, we clearly do not allow that (I even received this spam in my inbox!)... we were contacted by our registrar who was going to kill our domains unless we sent them 'proof' that we killed this affiliates account.
We clearly state which ways cannot be used to promote our sites and that the funds will be forfeit if those rules are not followed. It sucks but if you think any method you use might be considered illegal or unethical check with the sponsors TOS and find out for sure, or shoot off an e mail prior to starting the campaign and check to make sure it is ok. Their affiliate manager should have no problem letting you know in a timely manner if it is acceptable or not... and if they don't then maybe they aren't the program you should be wanting to promote in the first place
2cents
spaz
Hi Spaz.Quote:
Originally Posted by spazlabz
I think you got the wrong end of the stick here mate. I was in no way promoting any site against TOS. That is not what this issue is about.
Infact, i wasnt even aware my account had been closed as was still sending traffic, and most likely sales. I went to check my stats one day, and it didnt work. So i mailed asking why i didnt work.
I was then informed my account was closed, and i wont be paid.
I dont believe that is what you, or any other upstanding sponsor do.
i understand TOS and all that..
but when suspending an affiliate for whatever reason, doesn't the company have the responsibility for being specific about what sections in the TOS have been violated etc? and giving the affiliate time to respond?
not only would it be fair and reasonable, isn't it a legal requirement to be specific as well?
i don't see how it could be a legal requirement, although hopefully chad will let us know. after all, the terms are there for all to see.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Craver
We as a company do not feel at all comfortable working with Samebb for a large variety of reasons, just one of which is slandering. I think anyone that knows a bit of history will be able to see why Samebb was blocked from our program. Why would any company allow someone to promote them when their aim is to damage our company?
As for ‘stealing’ Sam’s money. Sam never even reached our minimum payout which is why he wasn’t paid before. I checked his stats and he was owed $88. We will pay that to him in hopes that it will settle this matter amicably. We never said we would not pay. That was the quote from the terms and yesterday when I spoke to Sam (before he posted this thread) I did ASK him for his epassporte account to show that we had every intent to pay him what he was due and settle this in a fair matter (guess he did not tell you this). If anyone has any concerns or questions please contact us directly, our affiliate program and management are stronger then ever and we look forward to a very successful 2007.
Fishy
fishy(@)zbuckz.com
Hello Fishy, thank you for your reply. Yes you were very helpful, and polite when i spoke to you around 36 hours ago. You didnt provide me with many answers and informed me "CJ would be in touch", which he did do.Quote:
Originally Posted by FisHY
Here is the email he sent me.
============================
This is to inform you that your affiliate account with zBUCKz has been terminated for violation of our terms of service.
Our TOS provides in part:
"ZbuckZ reserves the right to terminate any affiliate at any time for false, misleading, slanderous or libelous comments regarding our company, or if it is determined that their continuing to promote us is not in the best interests of the company. You will be banned from the program and not paid, as well as subject to prosecution and/or litigation regarding such statements."
Please immediately remove all links you have placed to our sites or promotional galleries. Because you have been banned from our program, any traffic sent to your links will result in the surfer getting a 404 error page.
--
Cheers,
CJ
Chief Operating Officer
www.zbuckz.com
=========================
In this email it was clearly stated i would not be paid, so i am sure you can understand why i raised this issue in this thread.
I fully understand you dont wish to work with me, it is your employers right to make that decision.
Upon receipt of my outstanding account balance, yet this issue will be over, and i will not push things any further. Im sure you can understand the reason for this thread when receiving the email i did.
Thank you again for being attentive to your responce here Fishy, you may however wish to get all the facts before making a post saying "i was going to be paid" when i received an email from your boss saying i wasnt.
Thanks again for your help.
Kind Regards
Quote:
Originally Posted by basschick
but basschick. if you're told that you're breaking your contract, wouldn't you want to know EXACTLY what you're breaking? (aside from the issues being raised in this thread?)
For instance, spamming. Evidence, please? .. etc..
god forbid that u'd be guilty of spamming basschick :) just an example.
Would be helpful if you were informed your account had been closed, and you dont find out days later when trying to check your stats, Yes.Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Craver
Iv been informed just now on ICQ by Fishy that i will be paid on the 8th of Janurary in full for the outstanding balance. I hope this happens, and thanks again Fishy.
you may want to know, but that doesn't mean it's a legal requirement that you be told. if you are termed, you should be able to go to the terms and find the reason why. the only reasons you can be legally removed must be stated in the terms, so there's not generally a reason to tell a person - especially if you have already communicated with them and the affiliate has not made the required changes.
after all, no one spams by accident and spamming is not only against everyone's tos's, it's also illegal. the ftc warns programs to lose the spammer or lose their program. period.
as far as evidence - this isn't court. you could take the program to court, but generally they do keep copies of everything and do, in fact, have evidence. not always, but every time i've seen one of these blow up, the program DID have evidence.
besides, more times than not when i see drama threads, it turns out that the affiliates knew how they were breaking the terms - they were just hoping they could bully the program into paying them.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Craver
Well, the TOS also said you would be sued for slander, and obviously you didn't rush out to get a lawyer... I am not a lawyer, but reading that paragraph looked to me like they were stating everything they can do, to cover themselves in case they have to.
I'm not sure what it is you did or didn't do, but sounds like everyone (including yourself) agrees it was reason enough to get your account terminated. If that's the case, then as per their TOS they can keep the balance and the fact that they are willing to pay it out to you shows me they're a very good sponsor to work with :)
Take Google Adsense for example. Soooooo many stories out there about publishers who worked with them, got their account cancelled for suspected fraud (they never tell you exactly what - they don't want to cover their fraud detection methods), even though they swear they never did anything, and got left owed thousands of dollars for that month. I think there have been a few lawsuits about this, not sure how they ended. Bottom line is, go to any mainstream webmasters board and you see stories like that and everyone agrees there's nothing to do about it and they keep working with adsense.
So, yes, read the contract before you join a program and play by their rules. This doesn't mean they can do anything, but they can do quite a lot ;) There is a matter of unfair clauses in our legal system too, I'm sure it applies in the US as well. For example, they tell you they can change the agreement at any time. Well, if some program owner went and added a clause to an already signed contract saying you must sign over all of your domain to them within one month, or sell him your grandmother, I doubt that it will work... it has to be within reason. And sometimes, it might be left for the court to decide what's reasonable and what's unreasonable.
It looks like this issue has been resolved, right?
I thought I would write generally on the Terms and Conditions of Sponsor programs. I am going to call both Sponsor and Affiliate "him" for convenience. "Him" means all of the women too.
T& C are an agreement, and even though it is unilateral in formation [only the sponsor has any input on the wording of the agreement] the Terms set out the rights and responsibilities of both Sponsor and Affiliate when you are doing the stuff that the Agreement is all about [sending joins and getting paid for those joins].
When you go to a sponsor's website and then apply to be an affiliate, you are agreeing to the Terms of Service or Terms and Conditions. That is a binding agreement, and when you send traffic or download content or just click the "I agree" button you are agreeing to those terms, and usually those terms state that they can be modified at any time without notice. These are basically unilateral contracts --they work one way. You either take the agreement as it is or leave it --you have no negotiating power. So, always read the Terms of Service or Terms and Conditions. It is tedious, but not nearly as tedious as writing them ;-) So far my record is a 43 page word document for the Terms and Conditions of Use.
Usually there is a section that tells you what will happen if you violate the Terms. Usually the Terms that you agreed to include a clause where you agreed to be terminated and you agreed to forfeit any money owed to you if you break any of the terms. Usually there is no warning provision, no contact provision, and you only find out you are terminated and forfeited your money after you contact the sponsor.
basschick is certainly right that proof of violation is not the same as a court of law; the Terms and Conditions on most sites state that you agree to provide that the decision of the Sponsor is final. They are definitely lopsided agreements, but Affiliates either have to agree to them or choose not to promote them; there is no other remedy.
As the writer of many many Terms and Conditions, I know how slanted they are toward the Sponsor. T&C are often times not "fair" but the Affiliate usually has to affirm that he READ and UNDERSTOOD the terms and conditions before sending traffic.
If the Affiliate does NOT violate the Terms and Conditions, the Sponsor still has the right to terminate at any time because it is just a business transaction. HOWEVER, if the Affiliate does NOT violate the Terms and Conditions then the Affiliate has the right to receive payment for what he has sent according to the agreement.
To summarize, a Sponsor can terminate for any reason without notice. If the Sponsor is not terminating the Affiliate for violating the Terms and Conditions, then the Affiliate still has a right to be paid what is owed to him up to the time of termination.
Chad you are correct however, when the TOS are re-written a few hours before SPECIFICALLY for the reason of terminating a single affiliate, that is crazy, as Patti mentioned above, an affiliate agreement IS a contract and their affiliate agreement, imho, isnt worth the HTML it is coded in.Quote:
Originally Posted by chadknowslaw
Sam could very easily have taken this to court and won because of the actions Zbucks took this time around.
The worrying thing about all this is, if they have done it once, who's to say that it wont happen again? What if they suddenly decide they dont want affiliates that own dogs to promote them? What if they decide they dont want affiliates who also promote another program to promote them? The list of possibilities is endless here, they have already proven they'll do whatever they like to terminate an affiliate, even if that means ammending an existing legal contract, without any prior warning, id be very cautious about sending any sponsor that did that any traffic.
Regards,
Lee
Thanks for the info chad.
This brings up a very specific issue.
Here is the scenario:
Affiliate signs up for the program, according to the Terms and Conditions existing at that time. Affiliate sends traffic and joins. Sponsor changes the Terms. Affiliate actions that were once not prohibited now violate the T & C. Sponsor terminates Affiliate.
Objectively, the Affiliate can be terminated but since he did not violate the T & C that existed at the time, I don't think the Sponsor could legitimately deny the Affiliate payment UNLESS the Affiliate violated the NEW T & C AFTER they had been posted on the site. So, if Affiliate signs up December 1, T & C are silent about Action X, and Affiliate does Action X on December 15, then Sponsor changes T & C on December 20 and terminates Affiliate on December 21, Sponsor should still pay Affiliate for all joins between December 1 and December 20. I don't know a winning argument for Sponsor unless Action X violated a specific law AND the T & C included a blanket clause that stated violating legitimate laws was also a violation of the Terms and Conditions.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lee
The realiity is that shady sponsors can do this sort of stuff and most likely they will get away with it unless they screw a deep-pocketed affiliate who wants to take the time and money to fight it.
I would suggest that the best thing affiliates can do is fight back with their pocketbook and traffic. READ the T&C of the affiliate program you're thinking of joining. (I do.)
Ask that the affiliate program have the decency to notify you (and other affiliates) if they are going to make any significant changes to their program.
Stop promoting programs with unreasonable TOS, and send them an email *telling* them you've dropped their program and why, and what they could do to get your traffic back.
If lots of affiliates put forth the effort to do this sort of thing, I can guarantee you that the better programs would respond and listen and make changes to their programs. And the crappier programs... well, if word starts to get around, they will lose affiliates, and if they lose enough of them, they'll either go out of business or change their ways.
AJ and I try to listen and respond to all of the input from our affiliates. Sometimes I think I might annoy them with constant questions like "How do you like this preview? What could we do better to make your life easier? What do you think of this payment method?" ... but we view affiliates as partners in our business... and so anything (from unreasonable terms and conditions to crappy galleries to weird payment terms) that limits our partners abilities to make money is a mistake from our point of view... and I know a lot of other program owners who feel the same way.
Thank you for your input Chip. I have always valued your comments on things so I'd like to take this opportunity to address your statements if I may be allowed to do so.
We did seek legal counsel before the action we took against Sam and everything we did we believe was completely legal and within our rights. We had it stated in our Terms and Services since the launch of zBUCKz that we have the right to change our T&C at any time. Fishy told Sam from the beginning he would be paid and the day we terminated his account we also sent over his Epassporte information to our accountant so that he'd be paid on our payout date of January 8th.
This is the first time we've had to take this measure against an affiliate, and we believe we are more then justified in doing so. Sam has repeatedly given lies and false information on this and other message boards about us, among other acts, which we believe was in order to try and cause harm to our company and reputation. This kind of behaviour is not good for us, our employees, or our affiliates and we took this action in the best interest of EVERYONE in our program and company.
Despite it all, we have tried to treat Sam fairly by making sure he got paid the money he was due and sending him an email to change his links so he did not lose any money from his traffic, as well as alerting him of the change in policy. Most programs, as Tigermom stated, would not bother to do this.
As stated by Fishy, we are always available for our affiliates if they have any questions or concerns. I don't believe we have engaged in actions that are 'shady,' as we have been open and up front from the beginning. I don't think our terms and services are at all unreasonable. The fact is, we agree 100% with your view that affiliates are our partners and have operated that way from the beginning.
I am not sure if your comments were directly pointed at us, but it did read that way to me. I hope I can talk to you sometime or meet you at a convention, I think we'd have a lot in common. It's amazing how cool you find out some people are once you get them away from the computer...sometimes our fingers can get the best of all the keyboard warriors in us!
Cheers,
DannyZ
Quote:
The realiity is that shady sponsors can do this sort of stuff and most likely they will get away with it unless they screw a deep-pocketed affiliate who wants to take the time and money to fight it.
I would suggest that the best thing affiliates can do is fight back with their pocketbook and traffic. READ the T&C of the affiliate program you're thinking of joining. (I do.)
Ask that the affiliate program have the decency to notify you (and other affiliates) if they are going to make any significant changes to their program.
Stop promoting programs with unreasonable TOS, and send them an email *telling* them you've dropped their program and why, and what they could do to get your traffic back.
If lots of affiliates put forth the effort to do this sort of thing, I can guarantee you that the better programs would respond and listen and make changes to their programs. And the crappier programs... well, if word starts to get around, they will lose affiliates, and if they lose enough of them, they'll either go out of business or change their ways.
AJ and I try to listen and respond to all of the input from our affiliates. Sometimes I think I might annoy them with constant questions like "How do you like this preview? What could we do better to make your life easier? What do you think of this payment method?" ... but we view affiliates as partners in our business... and so anything (from unreasonable terms and conditions to crappy galleries to weird payment terms) that limits our partners abilities to make money is a mistake from our point of view... and I know a lot of other program owners who feel the same way.
Well I had read some of the other comments, not all of them I confess, but the general feel I got from the first post was could a sponsor do this. the answer is an unfortunate 'yes' but it should be handled responsibly.Quote:
Originally Posted by samebb
If this is a step I have to take then the first step before i actually kill the account is to contact the affiliate. Sometimes we can find a work around
Important DOS tip: PLEASE make sure you have a working e mail account that is checked regularly when you sign up for a sponsor program
I am sorry to hear about what this other company did and I appreciate that you recognize that not all of us out there take such a cavalier attitude when it comes to YOUR traffic and YOUR earnings :)
spaz
Yes I believe that we do have that responsibility and it is only fair to allow the affiliate to respond and to place heavy consideration on how they reply to the noticeQuote:
Originally Posted by Richard Craver
Legal requirement where? Under whose jurisdiction? The answer to that question may be all of these;Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Craver
Yes
No
Maybe
spaz
affililiates should probably not only read - or at least skim carefully - the terms, but should also screencap a copy for later in case they ever need to show what they actually agreed to when they signed up.
and watch out for programs that state in their terms that changing their terms and conditions is binding and requires no warning or informing of the affiliates - i doubt that is legal since you agreed to one particular agreement when you signed up, but i'm not a lawyer and it's best to avoid this kind of confusion by knowing who will change your terms without warning - or if you know which sponsors do that, you can regularly check their tos.
I would really LOVE to see evidence of any lies i have told. Infact i believe everything i have ever posted is 100% factual and correct. Danny, i dont believe i have personaly posted anything false about you, or even anything negative. I have the upmost respect for you and honestly think your a great guy, but yes, i did post a large amount of factual, 100% correct information about your business partner, maybe not as such on this board.Quote:
Originally Posted by dannyz
Now if you can show me where i have lied about anything, i would be happy to counter that with proof in anyway i can that i havent lied.
This isn't about me trying to get my account back with you guys, i do however take exception to being called a lier. If somebody you work with does things that really are below the line, presents himself in ways that nobody ever should, and expects somebody he attacked to not mention anything, its expected that something will be said.
I could put together a list of things i have said, and how i can prove that they are infact true if you wish?
Such as you being forced to injure CJs arm because of one of his drunked rages (I compleatly understand self defence, and from what i heard being said to you and such i am not at all suprised you defended yourself).
Or possibly how models are pressured into sex, that can also be proven, again however, not by yourself.
I could go on all day, but i see it pointless. If you think i have lied, please present the lies i have aparently told. If however you wish to accept that yes, some BAD things did happen in time i spent in the zbuckz crews company, and you think it would be best to withdraw your statement calling me a lier that would be perfectly appropriate.
As said Danny, i have nothing again you, your a great guy and i wish you the best, i am just wondering if your being bullied into calling my a lier by another party.
what did your agreement say?
So...did you break the sponsor's rules?? on not?
As said earlier in the thread, no.Quote:
Originally Posted by lux
There are precautions you can take when you sign up with a new unknown sponsor. Taking these steps will prevent you from signing up with potentially unreliable sponsors.
1. Read the TOS, save them or print them
2. Contact the affiliate via e-mail or IM
3. Ask questions, lots of them... and it they unresponsive that means they don't care and then why should you?
I've got burned in the past by shady programs, and I even once hand collected a sponsor in Seattle in 1998, just so happened I was there on business and I succeeded. When I went to their office, all of the staff where on drugs, you could just see it in their eyes... I would not go so far to recommend hand collection (specially the American once!) you might get shot *lol*
Best regards,
Gusti
if the sponsor is a ccbill program, you get paid whether support gets back to you in a timely fashion or not. my best sponsor for 3 years took over 2 weeks to answer every email (and several times over a month) - but i got paid and made good money with them.
Quote:
Originally Posted by gusti
Thats true... CC Bill is much safer than the indipendent programs...
Quote:
if the sponsor is a ccbill program, you get paid whether support gets back to you in a timely fashion or not. my best sponsor for 3 years took over 2 weeks to answer every email (and several times over a month) - but i got paid and made good money with them.