Epoch or CCbill, and why... POLL

Chad,

I don't post a lot on any board but I do read them. Lee is 100% correct that AVN did sign and exclusive contract with Epoch for a series of shows. (Fact) This contract precludes any billing company to sponsor at AVN Shows including the GAYVN shows last week and next October in LA. (FACT) We are currently working with AVN to see if Epoch will allow us to continue sponsoring and supporting the Adult Industry at these forums or if they wish to keep this as an Exclusive option. (Fact)

Now before you go out and Blame Epoch or AVN (Both GREAT COMPANIES) of some master conspiracy lets think of this in other terms. Pepsi and Coke do this all the time at Casino, Sports Arena’s, The Olympics, ect... Not to mention Mastercard, Visa the list goes on.

I guess in closing I would like to say that CCbill is here to support our clients with the best Billing Software that we can provide. Over the next several months you will see our version of CCbill 2.0 arrive. I can tell you that the list of features for both Webmasters and Affiliates is 10x anything ever seen before in this industry. I have over 100+ programmers working on this project. This includes New interfaces, Cascading, Multiple Transaction Servers all over the world (100% uptime), Shopping Carts, Tangible Item sales, the list goes on and on. We even have 2 patent pending items that will be released

So while it maybe true that we are not sending 20 sales/marketing/etc people or plastering our name as the major sponsor of every show in the industry. What we are doing is working hard here in Phoenix to bring you the Next Generation of 3rd party billing software. I believe in putting our money into our future product not just resting on current technology.

Please don't miss understand we will have representatives at each show, and as always our support and sales are available by phone 24hrs a day. In my opinion 1 of our sales people is better than 10 of anyone elses sale people, but then I am a little biased LOL

I hope this answers some questions with real facts


Ron Cadwell
CEO
______________
CCbill.com
Cavecreek.com
DRMnetworks.com

Quote:

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Originally Posted by chadknowslaw

If this is true that would be very immature behavior on their part. XBiz does not shut out AVN from the XBiz shows, CC Bill does not shut out other processors from theirs. I thought only junior high girls would have a party where the girlfriend of their ex-boyfriend isn't invited to come.

Lee, where did you get this nasty bit of info from??

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Nobody is excluded from our shows. Gary from CCBill was in attendance. We certainly didn't block him or anyone else from CCBill from coming to our shows. Xbiz was also there, and we were happy to have them.

It's also worth noting that we covered the recent Xbiz Conference quite extensively, and that we post stories promoting their events quite often, such as this one.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by XXXWriterDude

Nobody is excluded from our shows. Gary from CCBill was in attendance. We certainly didn't block him or anyone else from CCBill from coming to our shows. Xbiz was also there, and we were happy to have them.

It's also worth noting that we covered the recent Xbiz Conference quite extensively, and that we post stories promoting their events quite often, such as this one.

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Hello mouth... Insert foot, then read one post up ;)

Regards,

Lee

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Lee

Hello mouth... Insert foot, then read one post up ;)

Regards,

Lee

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I didn't stick anything in my mouth, Lee. Well, OK, maybe someone's penis, but certainly not my foot. I didn't say anything about a sponsorship contract. I'll leave that to Chad Beecher to respond to, if he wishes. I simply stated that we do not exclude anyone from attending our shows, least of all CCBill, which was represented at the GAYVN Summit last weekend, and we were VERY happy to have them there, along with Xbiz.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ronc

Chad,

I don't post a lot on any board but I do read them. Lee is 100% correct that AVN did sign and exclusive contract with Epoch for a series of shows. (Fact) This contract precludes any billing company to sponsor at AVN Shows including the GAYVN shows last week and next October in LA. (FACT) We are currently working with AVN to see if Epoch will allow us to continue sponsoring and supporting the Adult Industry at these forums or if they wish to keep this as an Exclusive option. (Fact)

Now before you go out and Blame Epoch or AVN (Both GREAT COMPANIES) of some master conspiracy lets think of this in other terms. Pepsi and Coke do this all the time at Casino, Sports Arena’s, The Olympics, ect... Not to mention Mastercard, Visa the list goes on.

I guess in closing I would like to say that CCbill is here to support our clients with the best Billing Software that we can provide. Over the next several months you will see our version of CCbill 2.0 arrive. I can tell you that the list of features for both Webmasters and Affiliates is 10x anything ever seen before in this industry. I have over 100+ programmers working on this project. This includes New interfaces, Cascading, Multiple Transaction Servers all over the world (100% uptime), Shopping Carts, Tangible Item sales, the list goes on and on. We even have 2 patent pending items that will be released

So while it maybe true that we are not sending 20 sales/marketing/etc people or plastering our name as the major sponsor of every show in the industry. What we are doing is working hard here in Phoenix to bring you the Next Generation of 3rd party billing software. I believe in putting our money into our future product not just resting on current technology.

Please don't miss understand we will have representatives at each show, and as always our support and sales are available by phone 24hrs a day. In my opinion 1 of our sales people is better than 10 of anyone elses sale people, but then I am a little biased LOL

I hope this answers some questions with real facts


Ron Cadwell
CEO
______________
CCbill.com
Cavecreek.com
DRMnetworks.com

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While I appreciate the response, it is not just me asking the question. I am just the one --other than Lee-- that says out loud what I am thinking.

What you say does answer some questions.

I don't like "exclusive" contracts that reduce selection for the consumer. There are some circumstances where an exclusive contract makes sense--like when GM gives a car dealer the exclusive rights to sell their product in a small geographic area. In that case, one dealer could survive but 2 selling the same product may have to cut margins so close that both go out of business. When Pepsi or Coke get an exclusive contract for a stadium, the consumer loses out because the consumer cannot necessarily get what he wants.

When a trade show excludes all but one billing company, the consumer [webmaster] has a limited selection. A trade show should include free-flowing information, giving the webmasters and other consumers a broad range of choices so that the webmaster can make an informed decision. Excluding all but one company from any sponsorship works to the detriment of the consumer. A trade show is an ideal location for the consumer to gather information that pertains to his business. If, due an exclusivity clause, the consumer is not exposed to all that is out there, that consumer cannot make good decisions. If CC Bill _chooses_ not to sponsor at an event, that is a business decision that CC Bill has every right to make. If CC Bill is _prevented_ from sponsoring an event, then I believe ultimately the consumer is the one that loses out.

I believe in the free flow of information. When that free flow is prevented the consumer loses.

Thank you for responding Ron!

Chad

I think it's also worth noting a couple of things here:

1. a number of people on the gay side of the industry had been wanting to do a gay-themed networking event for several years. AVN had shown no interest. Only after Ron Cadwell personally got behind the idea of GPF and put on a successful event did AVN magically decide to do TWO events, one of which is clearly a "fuck you" to GPF because it was, I don't care what anyone says, intentionally scheduled directly opposite the GPF timeframe. And let's not forget that AVN also tried, before they were immediately rebuked, to schedule Internext against Phoenix Forum in 2007.

2. CCBill has been promoting these events for years. They have always welcomed alternate billers; Epoch was a major sponsor for GPF, a sponsor for Phoenix Forum, and I'm pretty certain I remember Netbilling and/or some of the alternative billers as previous sponsors of the Phoenix Forum as well. For AVN/Epoch to take a stand that limits consumer access and choice has the effect of segmenting the industry, which is the absolute LAST thing the industry needs.

3. Honest competition makes things better for consumers. If AVN can run a better event than CCBill, people will choose to go to that event. IF CCBill runs the better event, people will go there. If both events are excellent, people will probably go to both. A wise approach in a free market economy is to compete by providing a better product, not by limiting competition or forcing people to make choices that don't need to be made.

I am not happy with Epoch or with AVN at this moment.

I had no idea that there was so much passion surrounding this issue! At the end of the day, there are more than 2 players in this industry and each one has good and bad points.

To CCBill's credit, I like the fact that they aren't spending all of my money on neck pillows and I was proud of them for creating the GPH even if the execution of it wasn't spectacular.

To Epochs credit, they seem to have a much larger face in our industry and do support many more of our events. I joke about the neck pillows, but the sponsorship dollars help finance all of our hotel rooms and meeting spaces, so cut them some slack as we do benefit from them.

In terms of functionality? Pretty much the same - there is no magical formula/one size fits all approach for our industry. We make the decisions that are best for us.

At my company, for example, we use CCBill a bit, but mostly a third company not even argued about yet (and I'll leave the poor guys nameless for now so they don't get embroiled). But since we aren't using their affiliate programs, it's all a business decision based on processing rates.

But, keep this in mind. The "space race" that is an affiliate program never ends. Today, Epoch has the coolest new toys but next month it will be CCBill and so on and so on - so one will always be behind the other, but that will change regularly. Pick the one that has a good solid solution that meets your requirements.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by maxpower

I just wonder how many of the Ccbill votes in this poll were made by people that work for them

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Ah, totally missed this comment.

Right now, more people that work at (or have partnered with) Epoch have voted for Epoch than people that work at CCBill have voted for CCBill :)

Regards,

Lee

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Lee

Ah, totally missed this comment.

Right now, more people that work at (or have partnered with) Epoch have voted for Epoch than people that work at CCBill have voted for CCBill :)

Regards,

Lee

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Have partnered with? Lee is sounding like a republican spinning numbers to fit what ever he wants them to be. I asked how many people WORK directly for Ccbill that voted in the tread. Not for the Spin Doc

I would like to apogees to anyone that works for Ccbill, they really are helpful and hard working people. I really never had any kinds of problems, from them other than the backing I got after they told me repeatedly that my site was fine to send to the bank.

I am the first to admit I have personally issues with the support I got after the fact, including saying/acting like it was my fought any of this happen when I worked VERY closely with them and was told more times that I can count (Everything looks wonderful to us, and if their is a problem I am sure your documents will be enough for us)

I know I need to get over it, they do offer a really good service, just after being thrown to the wolfs, and told I can not use the same content almost everyone of u have in your sites my opinion went south quick. I am sure I will get over it, just every time I see someone say how wonderful they are it REALLY pisses me off. :hmm:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by maxpower

Have partnered with? Lee is sounding like a republican spinning numbers to fit what ever he wants them to be. I asked how many people WORK directly for Ccbill that voted in the tread. Not for the Spin Doc

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Okay ill post the numbers just as soon as all the new Epoch + AVN users on GWW have registered and voted.

Wouldnt want to have the numbers 'spun' in any way :)

Lets give it an hour, im sure all the staff will be registered here and will have cast their vote by then :)

Regards,

Lee

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Lee

Okay ill post the numbers just as soon as all the new Epoch + AVN users on GWW have registered and voted.

Wouldnt want to have the numbers 'spun' in any way :)

Lets give it an hour, im sure all the staff will be registered here and will have cast their vote by then :)

Regards,

Lee

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I only know of 2 Epoch guys that come around here, while at the same time I know of at least 5-8 Ccbill guys. Just seems to me that everyone that works for Ccbill, was told or asked to vote for them. They really do right now run a secondary service compared to what Epoch offers, yes this might change but it is true.

I really don’t care that much anyway, personally I think with cascade billing using all US based processors is a really BAD idea. Epoch seems the most stable of the US possessors to me, but I have more “Faith” in Verotel in the long run that either one of them.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by maxpower

Just seems to me that everyone that works for Ccbill, was told or asked to vote for them. They really do right now run a secondary service compared to what Epoch offers, yes this might change but it is true.

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Max, you're in no position to say that. CCBill turned your site down because it was too close to simulated CP for their comfort, and you've only been approved to process with Epoch for a few months.

The only people who can make a fair determination of which one (if either) is better is people who have extensive experience using both processors.

We've been processing with Epoch in secondary position for a few months now and I don't even feel qualified to speak as to which one is "better."

Quote:

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Originally Posted by gaybucks_chip

The only people who can make a fair determination of which one (if either) is better is people who have extensive experience using both processors.

We've been processing with Epoch in secondary position for a few months now and I don't even feel qualified to speak as to which one is "better."

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Agreed which is why i havent voted in the poll either, we only used Epoch briefly with StudMoney and i never had enough of a chance to go in-depth with their system to say whether they or CCBill are the 'better' processor.

Regards,

Lee

Look this is the last time I want to say this, I am not or have EVER simulated CP. Personally I am VERY insulated that anyone could would say that, and if I wanted to do that BS I would. Their was nothing wrong with the content or text in my site, so said Ccbill to start with. My problem was how fast they turned on me after some homophobic guy at their bank wanted to go on a CP witch hunt.

Ya you guys are right, it might still be to early to say what one is best, but if your using NATS, or what ever and have the cascade billing option I would not put all my eggs in one basket by trussing all US processors.

The processors are really the ones that are limiting our artistic expression, not the law. And other than the government are the only people in the chain I have to worry about. So if these topics sometimes make me go a little off the deep end please forgive me. I really do not have a problem with the people at Ccbill, they do run a hell of a service. I just have a problem being told what legal content I can use, and what sites its ok to use the content in and what sites its not ok to use the SAME content in

Quote:

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Originally Posted by maxpower

Look this is the last time I want to say this, I am not or have EVER simulated CP. Personally I am VERY insulated that anyone could would say that, and if I wanted to do that BS I would. Their was nothing wrong with the content or text in my site, so said Ccbill to start with. My problem was how fast they turned on me after some homophobic guy at their bank wanted to go on a CP witch hunt.

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Sean, look at what I wrote. I never said that it was your *intention* to have simulated CP, but I and others warned you that your language was probably too close to the line long before you submitted your site for approval, and at the end, it came down to CCBill and/or the risk people at their processor deciding that the combination of language (which they'd already approved) with the photos (which they hadn't seen before) made it too close *for their comfort.* The Visa regs are not hard-and-fast, but are open to interpretation. If you'd taken the advice you were given when you first posted your language and asked for input, then CCBill would have approved you. We've never had any problems with them, and by some opinions, we run fairly close to the line with Boyfunk.

Quote:

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Ya you guys are right, it might still be to early to say what one is best, but if your using NATS, or what ever and have the cascade billing option I would not put all my eggs in one basket by trussing all US processors.

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I agree it's a wise idea to have an offshore processor. The only one I would trust is Verotel. Segpay is former IBill people and the others all seem to be pretty small players.

Maybe I should have removed any images from my tour that looked under 25 or should call the twink guys Men or something, but like you said I really thought your tour was much worse than the one I offered them at first. Not that I think your trying to push CP in anyway, but the similarity in text are undeniable. In fact I got the whole (School Boy) stuff from you to start with, and they did not even see that text, or any other the other questionable text you guys had a problem with.

In fact I did lesson to you guys, even more that I lessened to the compliance department, and removed all the text at ANYONE had a problem with, and used some of the oldest models I had in the 1 page tour I gave them.

I do love Verotel, I have never lost any sleep over them, and will probably find a way to keep as many recurring members under their umbrella as I possibly can in the future. Yes basically their bonus service’s suck, but I can fix what’s wrong with that, unlike some other problems I have no control over at all. Yes I am kind of a control freak

But what ever you guys are 100% right it all came do to interpretation, and I was on the losing end of it. Not much I can do now, but learn from it, and move on. I will try VERY hard in the future to never bring this up again, because it is really not a shot at the good people that work for Ccbill. This was I hope just a isolated problem between me and their bank that really has nothing to with the Ccbill team at all. Do hope if others have problems in the future with this bank and twink/teen boy sites that they might look around for new reviewers or other banks they could use.

What’s going on with the poll Lee? Ccbill just jumped 12 votes when they where just about tied again minutes ago? And it did not look like the votes where come from the outside to me, because the thread did not bounce to the top after each vote? Not that I think your pulling anything, its just that voting on this really does seem suspicious to me :shithitfan:

*sigh* who posted this poll anyway! haha

I should have saved it for a day or 2 and I would be going to the pheonix forum for free!

Btw guys, thanks a ton for all of the advice, discussion and debate. Not that I am any closer to making a decision, but it does help a ton!

Once you sit down with anyone from Epoch and they explain to you how their statiticians have revolutionized the chargeback model and how it will save you money... there is no doubt that Epoch knows what they are doing.

I spent the entire GayVN show with Patrick, and many others from Epoch. I have never met a group of people that I value as friends and trust more.

Let's just say... I would trust them with more than just my money...

NakedSword has been with CC Bill as primary for years, however noone for CC Bill seems to be able to pick up a phone and call me or anyone at NakedSword (although they will now that I posted this I am sure). We have also sponsored the Phoenix Forum for years but were not asked this year at all. Nor were several other gay companies that used to sponsor the show! We were a sponsor and supporter of the first Gay Phoenix Forum.

I am not aware of anyone attending the GayVN summit from CC Bill as I was all over the show. I would have like to meet the new gay rep there!

I have to say Epoch is the way to go! They have been going out of the way to make sure the gay community knows EVERYONE on the staff from the sales reps to the owner Joel, who is a great guy! They have a good solid product and are alway available when you need them and they always check in with me to see if they can do more!

This entire poll has suspicious results.

The majority of people posting comments in this thread have expressed a preference for Epoch but the poll doesn't reflect that at all. Are we to assume that the people who voted for CCbill can't be bothered to state why they prefer them?

As far as my opinion, I prefer Epoch because they seem to allow more transactions through without increasing the chargeback ratio. And their processing fees are less for us. However, affiliates definitely prefer to promote CCbill sites over Epoch sites by a wide margin. However I expect that to change as soon as Epoch implements the 'merge affiliate accounts' feature like CCbill does.

My solution is to have alternative tours. SE traffic and our in house traffic is directed to the Epoch tour and affiliates send traffic to the CCbill tour.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Xstr8guy

This entire poll has suspicious results.

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Tell me about it man, I do not think I have ever questioned poll results untill I have seen this one. Some funny stuff is going on here, and I am not laughing :hmm:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by maxpower

Tell me about it man, I do not think I have ever questioned poll results untill I have seen this one. Some funny stuff is going on here, and I am not laughing :hmm:

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Well that's not true. You questioned a poll I started recently. And the only manipulation done was to add an option to the poll for Don.

http://forums.gaywidewebmasters.com/...t=21811&page=3

Quote:

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Originally Posted by maxpower

No mater how much poll manipulations you guys do it seems the cream has risen to the top yet again, I am sure many of your moms would be Very proud of you guys :thumbsup:

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Xstr8guy

This entire poll has suspicious results.

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Sorry... I tend to be more of a reader and will not vote unless something to say. So now I have to write something, since I voted.

I have experienced IBill and likewhoa hosting. Two companies that personally enjoyed business funds. I have been with CCBILL now for years. I remain loyal to them. They have given me the stats I required and pay weekly.

Epoch comes in suddenly with casade. It seems the forum sees a shaft of light from the heavens. Personally, I would not like a CCBILL decline to be accepted by another. There is a good reason for declines. Yesterday I contacted FRAUD@CCBILL and said a new signup, back in September 2005 had claimed a minor used the card. That said person, with same IP address is now blacklisted from my site.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by wnc

Epoch comes in suddenly with casade. It seems the forum sees a shaft of light from the heavens. Personally, I would not like a CCBILL decline to be accepted by another. There is a good reason for declines. Yesterday I contacted FRAUD@CCBILL and said a new signup, back in September 2005 had claimed a minor used the card. That said person, with same IP address

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My personal experience with Epoch is that they have excellent fraud prevention. We have a very low chargeback ratio with both CCbill and Epoch. I honestly think if fraud is an important concern for you, you can't go wrong using either processor... they both seem to do very well. However, I do think CCbill may scrub too hard sometimes.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Xstr8guy

Well that's not true. You questioned a poll I started recently. And the only manipulation done was to add an option to the poll for Don.

http://forums.gaywidewebmasters.com/...t=21811&page=3

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Well that was really just a joke, I even did try to turn this poll around with some effect, yet suddenly that changed.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Xstr8guy

My personal experience with Epoch is that they have excellent fraud prevention. We have a very low chargeback ratio with both CCbill and Epoch. I honestly think if fraud is an important concern for you, you can't go wrong using either processor... they both seem to do very well. However, I do think CCbill may scrub too hard sometimes.

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And since I voted, forcing me to comment, there remains the issue that CCBILL is a brand extremely well known and trusted by affiliates.

The CCBILL scrub is well documented, thus why the company has not suddenly vanished like others. I am sure that Epoch will do the same, protecting their percentage... OH... that is right, they will casade to CCBILL, laughing

Quote:

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Originally Posted by wnc

And since I voted, forcing me to comment, there remains the issue that CCBILL is a brand extremely well known and trusted by affiliates.

The CCBILL scrub is well documented, thus why the company has not suddenly vanished like others. I am sure that Epoch will do the same, protecting their percentage... OH... that is right, they will casade to CCBILL.

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I would not suggest it, if your using a US possessors as your primary I would not use a US processors for your secondary processors too. Really these processors are the weak link, and US processors are most likely to be the first to start breaking down.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by maxpower

I would not suggest it, if your using a US possessors as your primary I would not use a US processors for your secondary processors too. Really these processors are the weak link, and US processors are most likely to be the first to start breaking down.

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VISA.

It is VISA, not master card, not discover, not Amex that now makes the rules.

Via its structure, Visa is now an international banking agreement, stronger than the old "world bank".

But I think even many here would concure that most income still comes from the USA.

There may be more rules to comply with USA political correctness, but the banks,and VISA enjoy the income gay webmasters create for them.

Are you suggesting Maxpower that CCBILL is a weak link? Was it not CCBILL that declined your site? Seems to me that CCBILL has a strong hand on the pulse of USA and banking.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by wnc

VISA.

It is VISA, not master card, not discover, not Amex that now makes the rules.

Via its structure, Visa is now an international banking agreement, stronger than the old "world bank".

But I think even many here would concure that most income still comes from the USA.

There may be more rules to comply with USA political correctness, but the banks,and VISA enjoy the income gay webmasters create for them.

Are you suggesting Maxpower that CCBILL is a weak link? Was it not CCBILL that declined your site? Seems to me that CCBILL has a strong hand on the pulse of USA and banking.

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Not just CCBILL I would not build my whole business based on any 1 processors, and especially not a US processors. I think the processors over all are the weak link not just one or the other, though US processors are much more sensitive about chancing attitudes in this country. Its not like I think they will fail overnight or anything, but there “interpretation” of possible new guidelines and existing once should make you take steps to protect yourself.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by wnc

VISA.

It is VISA, not master card, not discover, not Amex that now makes the rules.

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Actually, not true. Mastercard has its own set of rules, that's why CCBill had to implement this crazy E-ticket thing they did a year or two ago (the thing that allows members to "shop" for a site and all that.) They did that to comply with the new Mastercard regs.

Visa definitely has more policies pertaining to adult, but each card association has its own set of rules, and there's nothing to stop Mastercard, or Discover, for that matter, from adding another set of regs that CCBill and Paycom have to enforce.

Also, regarding the CCBill scrub vs Epoch, they used to be noticeably different, but I think even Epoch will acknowledge that their scrub is roughly the same as CCBill's these days. And not wanting a sale approved by Epoch that another processor has turned down? Ridiculous. Each processor has slightly different rules, and some transactions will decline at Epoch and complete at CCBill, while others will decline at CCBill and complete at Epoch. Again, it just depends on their individual scrub rules. Today, neither Epoch nor CCBill has "better" scrub than the other, from everything I've heard and seen. We have noticed that on some days, CCBill scrubs harder than other days, but I've heard other people say the same for Epoch.

And to answer Max's point, I don't think Visa International has different compliance policies than Visa US does, other than a more lenient threshold on chargebacks (2% vs 1%.)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by gaybucks_chip

Actually, not true. Mastercard has its own set of rules, that's why CCBill had to implement this crazy E-ticket thing they did a year or two ago (the thing that allows members to "shop" for a site and all that.) They did that to comply with the new Mastercard regs.

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Where does one find the mastercard site listing all of the gay sites, in the "shop" Mastercard wanted? VISA remains the power that, regradless of processor or country, a webmaster has to deal with.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by wnc

Where does one find the mastercard site listing all of the gay sites, in the "shop" Mastercard wanted?

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https://shopping.ccbill.com/index.cg...e=searchMature

Quote:

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VISA remains the power that, regradless of processor or country, a webmaster has to deal with.

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Well, since you apparently feel some need to be right, I'll let you have your belief, "regradless" of whether it's correct or not.

Is is always good to use both....

CCbill has always been the leader but what if..one day..the are no longer wanting to work with gay sites?

Why not try to do both?

They have good points and better to plan ahead.

We have a client that is making us develop a VOD site for Paycom.
And....I think it will work out great in the long run.

After all, CCbill already make $1,000,000,000,000,000 a year on gay sites but only gives us about .0000000001% attention. Paycom makes about .0000000001% and is giving us a lot more attention.

I have never been a PayCom fan but now I am looking to move some clients to them.

Updates to follow....

Quote:

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Originally Posted by gaybucks_chip

https://shopping.ccbill.com/index.cg...e=searchMature

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Well that's a completely worthless tool. The same straight sites come up when you search for gay terms. Pointless and ineffective.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Xstr8guy

Well that's a completely worthless tool. The same straight sites come up when you search for gay terms. Pointless and ineffective.

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I suspect they did just barely enough to comply with Mastercard regs and haven't touched it since. I would also suspect it gets close to zero traffic.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by gaybucks_chip

I suspect they did just barely enough to comply with Mastercard regs and haven't touched it since. I would also suspect it gets close to zero traffic.

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well, I guess that is good. Lol.