The BDSM Niche

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Originally posted by Tala
It is my understanding that the so-called "Olde Guard" uses those titles, but I'm not really sure because that's not an area where I've played. Maybe Don would know better than I. :goof:

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You know, Tala, I think you and I should host some sort of fetish/bdsm related talk show. LOL!!!

I don't think Mi Lady or Mi Lord is generally used in gay BDSM circles. We tend to stick with Master, Sir, Daddy, Dom, slave, boy, sub. You may also see Top and bottom. Top usually means the sexual position of being on top of the other, but can also imply dominance. The one being on the bottom would be referred to as the "bottom", you get the picture.

Ah, the subject of Old Guard and New Guard. I'll do my best to give you the reader's digest version. The gay leather scene as we know it started to come together in the 50's with the motorcycle clubs. Men who did not fit in with the more femme underground gay culture at that time navigated towards the tougher climate of the biker bars. As things started to progress and the roles became more defined, people broke off into leather families. There were many rules, codes, and rites of passage for anyone wanting to live the lifestyle. Generations mentored the newcommers and passed on the history and tradions. This was called the "Old Guard". When the 80's hit and the tragedy of the AIDS epidemic taking so many lives, the mentorship and traditions were broken. While there were still people who were playing, a lot of the structures fell to ruin. Then in the 90's, the internet brought fourth a whole new generation of players in the leather lifestyle. People enter the lifestyle without the traditions and rites of passage that used to be required, people claim titles for themselves without earning them, and things are a lot different now. This is called the "New Guard". Not necessarily a bad thing, all things must change. Sad to say that the ways of the Old Guard are not always possible with the state of the world today, but we are trying our best to bridge the gap between the Old Guard and the New Guard, so education and mentorship can still happen.

This is a bit of history, don't know if it would really help in building an adult site, but it's information that's good to know.

Also, a really good resource for the straight side of BDSM is a series of books written by Anne Rice. The Claiming of Sleeping Beauty, Beauty's Punishment, and Beauty's Release. I have not read them, but years ago when I worked in the phone sex industry, a lot of the operators who did BDSM fantasies read these books to get a good background on the terms and activities of the Dom/sub culture. Since you like to read, I would recommend them. They are on my "to read" list also.

I hope this has been helpful. :)

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Originally posted by Bell
Bell <------ looking for rope

to tie Bec to a chair
and put ONE book within her reach
along with fresh ice cold ice tea with no lemon...

:)

~Bell

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ROFLMAO!!!!!!!!!! Bell, you slay me. :)

One of my lesbian friends tried to get me to read the books by Anne Rice several years ago ... looks like those just went onto the active search and read list!

Thanks for the background on the Old Guard vs New ... and I think the more anyone can learn about a life style the better for building a site that deals with it. While I can't ever profess to be any kind of expert, I think those into the niche will certainly detect a total lack of comprehension fairly quickly, so I sincerely appreciate the time and in depth replies from everyone!

i used to hear renfaire people into dom/sub say mi lord and mi lady.

there are so many different layers of corporal punishment. there are people who are only into OTK, which means Over The Knee spankings. some are into spanking paddles as well - some believe in a good old-fashioned hand spanking. a lot of the OTK people are not into any kind of whippings at all.

have you read the story of O and nine and a half weeks? straight, but i consider them both worth a read. also you can shop at http://www.shadowlane.com/ which is run by someone i used to work with at the dungeon. they are passionate about punishment :-)

it's amazing how very erotic some people can make bdsm even to people who aren't into it. also i've noticed that a large part of the scifi/fantasy readers i know are into at least light dom/sub.

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Originally posted by Ounique
You know, Tala, I think you and I should host some sort of fetish/bdsm related talk show. LOL!!!

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Don't tempt me, hon. That sort of thing would be right up my alley, especially since I'm a local Mentor. :)

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Also, a really good resource for the straight side of BDSM is a series of books written by Anne Rice. The Claiming of Sleeping Beauty, Beauty's Punishment, and Beauty's Release. I have not read them, but years ago when I worked in the phone sex industry, a lot of the operators who did BDSM fantasies read these books to get a good background on the terms and activities of the Dom/sub culture. Since you like to read, I would recommend them. They are on my "to read" list also.

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Want me to bring my set of them to Florida? I'll be delighted to share them. (oh, sooooo good...)

Actually, though, they're not exactly "straight." There's a great deal of M/M and a good F/F scene, especially in the final book. The first book is mostly straight, but in the second Anne Rice starts really playing with homosexuality. (No pun intended.)

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Originally posted by Tala
Don't tempt me, hon. That sort of thing would be right up my alley, especially since I'm a local Mentor. :)

Really? Right on. I'm all about mentorship and education. Kudos to you. Where are you from anyway?

Want me to bring my set of them to Florida? I'll be delighted to share them. (oh, sooooo good...)

Actually, though, they're not exactly "straight." There's a great deal of M/M and a good F/F scene, especially in the final book. The first book is mostly straight, but in the second Anne Rice starts really playing with homosexuality. (No pun intended.)

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I'm afraid I'm not going to be able to make it to Florida. We almost always do the Vegas Expo. I did not know that about the Beauty books, now I'm going to have to get them. Very cool.

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Originally posted by Ounique
Really? Right on. I'm all about mentorship and education. Kudos to you. Where are you from anyway?

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I currently live in Tennessee. Land of the hopeless armed redneck thumpers. Get me OUT of here!!

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I'm afraid I'm not going to be able to make it to Florida. We almost always do the Vegas Expo. I did not know that about the Beauty books, now I'm going to have to get them. Very cool.

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:( I was looking forward to meeting you. Hopefully I can head over to the Vegas Expo. :)

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Originally posted by Tala
I currently live in Tennessee. Land of the hopeless armed redneck thumpers. Get me OUT of here!! :( I was looking forward to meeting you. Hopefully I can head over to the Vegas Expo. :)

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If we don't meet until then, then I hope we at least meet in Vegas. You should come to LA. If you're into the bdsm lifestyle there is a wonderful community here, both straight and gay, with many fine clubs for both. (I think everyone should live in LA, heh heh)

Well Bec I was gonna give you some info but it looks like it's all taken care of here!!
You got some really great feedback on the lifestyle. As you know I am a lifestyler and have a 24/7 live in slave. We practice between Old Guard and New..and I think there is a difference between gay BDSM/SM and straight from my experience.

WOOF!
Buck

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Originally posted by Buck Angel
Well Bec I was gonna give you some info but it looks like it's all taken care of here!!
You got some really great feedback on the lifestyle. As you know I am a lifestyler and have a 24/7 live in slave. We practice between Old Guard and New..and I think there is a difference between gay BDSM/SM and straight from my experience.

WOOF!
Buck

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I do believe there is a difference between gay and straight BDSM, which is why I'm interested in learning about those differences. I can't help it: I'm a knowledge junkie. :)

I'm exactly the same way Tala. I'm never so excited as when I meet someone who is into something I'm not familliar with. I recently became friends with a guy who's into the adult baby scene. We've had endless hours of discussion on our various fetishes and interests. We have a lot more then just fetish in common and we've grown to be quite good friends, but our mutual interest in each other's headspace as made for quite some interesting conversations.

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Originally posted by Buck Angel
Well Bec I was gonna give you some info but it looks like it's all taken care of here!!
You got some really great feedback on the lifestyle. As you know I am a lifestyler and have a 24/7 live in slave. We practice between Old Guard and New..and I think there is a difference between gay BDSM/SM and straight from my experience.

WOOF!
Buck

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I know, the stuff that got posted is awesome so far! What an education! But I'm certainly wanting to learn more about the differences in BDSM practices between straight and gay participants. Anything more on this that anyone can share will certainly be welcome information!

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Originally posted by Tala
I do believe there is a difference between gay and straight BDSM, which is why I'm interested in learning about those differences. I can't help it: I'm a knowledge junkie. :)

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I find that Gay BDSM is a bit more sexual and about getting off and straight BDSM seems to be more about the power exchange..not always of course and this is from my own personal experience.

WOOF!
Buck

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Originally posted by Ounique
I'm exactly the same way Tala. I'm never so excited as when I meet someone who is into something I'm not familliar with. I recently became friends with a guy who's into the adult baby scene. We've had endless hours of discussion on our various fetishes and interests. We have a lot more then just fetish in common and we've grown to be quite good friends, but our mutual interest in each other's headspace as made for quite some interesting conversations.

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perk... AB
is he into gay only AB play ??

~Bell

p.s. I bet it's hard for him to find a sitter... has he ever done that ??

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Originally posted by Bell
perk... AB
is he into gay only AB play ??

~Bell

p.s. I bet it's hard for him to find a sitter... has he ever done that ??

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Acutally, he's got a Daddy. Very interesting relationship. They were boyfriends, and he told the guy all about his AB interests, but he wasn't really interested in persuing that. Then they broke up, both explored their own interests, and eventually got back together under the context of Daddy and (adult)boy. He's not a total adult baby, he gets more into the headspace of being a 3 or 4 year old. He's really cool. :)

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Originally posted by Bec
I know, the stuff that got posted is awesome so far! What an education! But I'm certainly wanting to learn more about the differences in BDSM practices between straight and gay participants. Anything more on this that anyone can share will certainly be welcome information!

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I think, IMHO, that straight people get a lot more into the fantasy of BDSM. Gay people often have to go through a coming out process already, so when it comes to being kinky, it's not quite such an ordeal. Not that it isn't an ordeal and a lot choose to hide their kinky interests, but at least we have some experience coming out of the "second closet". And you find that leather is a little more acceptable in the gay community. There's still ignorance and bias, I've had vanilla people say to me "oh, you're one of those leather people, or they assume I'm into all kinds of really extreme things like doing animals or getting the crap beaten out of me for fun. But even with all that, it's still nowhere near what a straight person has to go through. Society really has it out for straight kinky people. So they usually have to be very much more guarded about thier interests and lifestyle and I think this manifests itself in a very active fantasy life.

I was recently at a party in a straight play space. While gay men's dungons are usually all done in black leather with a very dark feel to them, this place has a school room for teacher/student fantasies, a boudoir for forced fem or crossdressing men, a medical room and many others. I'm not saying that gay men don't indulge in fantasy, but in general it's more about the connection and the toys than the whole atmosphere, I think. Of course, there are exceptions to any rule.

And, commenting on what Buck said. I know a lot of gay leather people who are more into the play than the actual sex, but there are a lot of people who get into the sex-in-leather thing too, possibly more of the latter. I guess there are two schools of thought on it.

You mention parties and dungeon parties -- is that how I would classify sets that have more than 2 participants? Are these the equivalent of saying "orgy" or "bi" type porn groupings?

Another difference between straight and gay Leather.

Gay Leathermen are attractive. Straight Leathermen.... well... they really shouldn't be sceneing in cutoffs and a t-shirt, but frequently they do.

I am a BDSM fetish vet (as well as being a femsub who identifies as a gay boy - never mind...)

The biggest recommendation I could make on your sites is to keep the het side divided... do NOT mix a femdom site with a femsub site. Absolutely not. Also, with the femsub site, you are best off having no men in the picture (a hand, an arm - but definately no face...) - tie the girl up and shoot her, or have another girl dom her. Straight men who fantasize about sub women are into projecting themselves into the scene.

Finally - I don't know if this has been covered yet... but the rule is if someone is tied up, penetration is r*pe. This is true even if the girl is smiling. So, you can show the girls bound hands, and in the next shot, go from the elbows down, and you are safe. You can also be whipping the heck out of a bound girl - needles, etc... but penetration is the risk.

To my knowlege, the only WEB prosectution regarding obscentiy and BDSM was in Canada with Sweet Erotica (they won) - Sweet is about the best source of your straight content as well. He will cut a deal to shoot exclusive for you - which makes marketing much easier.

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Originally posted by Bec
You mention parties and dungeon parties -- is that how I would classify sets that have more than 2 participants? Are these the equivalent of saying "orgy" or "bi" type porn groupings?

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I honestly have never been to an "orgy", per se. I always picture them as happening in a house, with lots of shag carpeting and bad 70's music going on. There are a few different kinds of play parties. Some take place in fully stocked play spaces that are geared for such events, and smaller ones can take place in private homes. The main activitiy at the parties I've been to are bdsm, not really sex. While some sex can happen, people usually go there to play. I did go to a party once where it did break out into a big suck and fuck fest, but a well organized play party is usually about the "play" and not so much about the "sucking and fucking". Of couse, this is all from my experience only.

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Originally posted by Ounique
I honestly have never been to an "orgy", per se. I always picture them as happening in a house, with lots of shag carpeting and bad 70's music going on. There are a few different kinds of play parties. Some take place in fully stocked play spaces that are geared for such events, and smaller ones can take place in private homes. The main activitiy at the parties I've been to are bdsm, not really sex. While some sex can happen, people usually go there to play. I did go to a party once where it did break out into a big suck and fuck fest, but a well organized play party is usually about the "play" and not so much about the "sucking and fucking". Of couse, this is all from my experience only.

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oh, and um... pardon my french. I couldn't think of a better way of describing it and still make my point. :hmmph:

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The biggest recommendation I could make on your sites is to keep the het side divided... do NOT mix a femdom site with a femsub site. Absolutely not. Also, with the femsub site, you are best off having no men in the picture (a hand, an arm - but definately no face...) - tie the girl up and shoot her, or have another girl dom her. Straight men who fantasize about sub women are into projecting themselves into the scene.

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Ok ... you lost me here. What is FemDom vs FemSub? Is FemSub considered "gay" bdsm niche?

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Originally posted by Bec
Ok ... you lost me here. What is FemDom vs FemSub? Is FemSub considered "gay" bdsm niche?

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FemDom = Female Dominant
FemSub = no such thing
femsub = female submissive

capitalization and lowercase are important distictions
related to Dominant / submissive

:)

~Bell

Yes - you're right - it is usually fem/sub - though - I am definately the rare FemSub (Beat me NOW! and do it RIGHT this time!)

hehehehe

You wrote it right originially Shaun, I'm the one that errored on the capitials ... thanks Bell, you're right on about when and where to use the upper and lower case, something I definiately need to pay closer attention to with this niche.

Even though I've been reading as posts were made, I sat back over the weekend and REALLY read through this thread.

This is amazing. A couple of years ago I started to research this but stopped when the FemDom who was explaining things to me fell off the face of the planet.

This has been better than the weeks I spoke with her.

Thanks everyone!

Gary-Alan