Moving out of the USA

desslock - we had two u.s. citizens pulled off of u.s. soil by the u.s. government and thrown in guatanamo for years without a trial. one was released after a couple years, but i think the other is still in there.

and those are the ones we know about.

the patriot act allows a LOT of things that are totally against our constitution to happen to us - all they have to do is claim that you are under suspicion. the first misuse i saw was a guy that ended up with racketeering charges. they looked into his bank account info without a warrant by using the patriot act, and they knew that they were looking into him for being a gangster, NOT being a terrorist.

Quote:

---

If you move to England or Spain, would you be afforded Miranda protections? Is there an absolute right to an attorney, or a right against self incrimination?

---

having grown up in england, yes, yes and dont know

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by basschick

desslock - we had two u.s. citizens pulled off of u.s. soil by the u.s. government and thrown in guatanamo for years without a trial. one was released after a couple years, but i think the other is still in there. and those are the ones we know about.

---

Well I'm not saying that the federal government does no wrong. I am suggesting that we actually have in many cases civil protections that are more clearly defined and historically better protected. Life is more then finding the lowest tax bracket, and finding approval for your source of income. I do think the Guantanamo situation is pretty thin ice for the Feds. On the other hand, I do not have much sympathy for those who are there. Fundamentalist Islam is the idea that fueled the public execution of two gay teens in Iran, and it is what powers terrorists.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by basschick

the patriot act allows a LOT of things that are totally against our constitution to happen to us

---

Well I'm not an enthusiastic fan of the Patriot Act either. However this thread is a comparison between the US and other countries, and my understanding is that in England much of the police searches going on now in response to the London bombings are done in "emergency conditions." I don't think the police there have to follow the same kinds of warrant proceedures and evidence gathering proceedures like they do here.

Even under the Patriot Act, the police need a judge to issue a warrant. And they still have to follow the legal guidelines for getting evidence. Plus the Patriot Act has to sunset.

I guess my earlier post was mostly to point out my feeling that people here really do not appreciate what is here. I spent much of the mid to late 90s involved in gay politics in Texas. Then the focus was on passing a hate crimes bill, and repealing our state's discriminatory law against gay sex.

Well today we have a hate crimes law, so that if someone assults me because I am gay the perpetrator can now be prosecuted at a higher penalty level. And there is not only no "sodomy law" on the books, but there is an actual asserted right to privacy in the bedroom which prohibits all state legislatures from interfering in the future.

Looks to me like on paper, being gay in the USA is far better then just a few years ago.

And you can go to two states now and become practically a hair-width away from marriage. Nevertheless, the current state of mind is that is sky is falling. Witness the hand wringing and complaining about the state of affairs in the US. Well that tells me that people are more interested in complaining about feeling insecure, as opposed to actually appreciating the rights that they have, the rights that their parents didn't have, the rights that lots of others in the world do not have... and certainly the rights that gay teens in Iran do not enjoy.

Steve

actually two of the guys in guatanamo were found 100% not guilty of anything. and 12 more - who weren't u.s. citizens - were found to be civilians who weren't doing anything. no major islamic thing going on there - but these guys did years.

and the point of several things in the patriot act is they don't need to get a warrant. when they got that gangster's bank stuff, it was without a warrant. the aclu had a fit.

it may be better to be gay in the u.s. than it was - although there are other countries that allow marriages and have a LOT less hate crimes against gay men and women - but this isn't a good country to be a person who looks arabic to the average person. it's also not a good country to be black or a lot of other things. i watched a friend of mine harrassed and beaten by cops because they thought he was part american indian - which he isn't, btw. and when i said something, they let me know they'd be happy to beat me and arrest me.

a couple years ago, i read the statistics regarding child abuse here and in france. sadly, it didn't amaze me that france had like 80% less child abuse than we do.

the constitution is a beautiful thing. if it was actually believed in by the powers that be, and if christianity followed what christ says in the bible, we'd certainly have a nice place to live. as it is, it all depends on what color your skin is and where you live, and so many other things.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by basschick

a couple years ago, i read the statistics regarding child abuse here and in france. sadly, it didn't amaze me that france had like 80% less child abuse than we do.

the constitution is a beautiful thing. if it was actually believed in by the powers that be, and if christianity followed what christ says in the bible, we'd certainly have a nice place to live. as it is, it all depends on what color your skin is and where you live, and so many other things.

---

France has the largest muslim population of any western civilization estimated to be 12% of Frances population ( http://www.masnet.org/prof_community.asp?id=1585 ) They've recently deported 13 militant Islam leaders there and civil unrest is growing. I'm not sure where the child abuse statistics you have are from.. but what France considers child abuse, and what we consider abuse, are two different things ( I.e. spanking ) The child rights laws in France are ancient and the U.N. had to step in recently to get them on track ( http://www.news-medical.net/?id=2244 ) Sex with children in France is legal as the age of consent is 15 ( http://www.ageofconsent.com/france.htm ) and artificial insemination for Gays and lesbians is illegal ( see prvious link )

None of our countries are perfect.. NONE

America has always been known as two faced with a split personality ( sexually free yet religiously restricted , etc. etc. ) But it is the best game in town and a U.S. passport gets you access to any country in the world. Try being a Phillipine citizen and getting to leave the country, or Brazilian, African, etc. etc. Just my 2 cents

Things are never what they seem on the surface. Is Europe known for more progressive attitudes toward sexuality, religion and morality (whatever constitutes that)? Sure.

But look at a country like France and you can see that significantly progressive attitudes and policies involving secularism/church and state create things some would consider and impediments to free speech. The fact that Muslim schoolgirls can't wear their headdresses/veils to school was borne from an intense desire to create a definitive separation between church and state (what many of us would consider to be progressive) yet at the price of not just individual schoolgirls' but a religions believers inability to practice their religion as they see fit (an imposition upon free speech we'd consider anything but progressive).

Look at militant Islamism in Europe, a phenomenon born from segregation. Here you have 1st and 2nd generation Muslims living in Western Europe but separated from mainstream society, that in turn being at the roots of events like the recent London train bombings and a decades-long history of some pretty intense Islamic militancy in Western Europe. In the United States, immigrants are often quickly integrated in to society and afforded all the opportunities that come with that, while at the same time their freedom to retain elements of their own cultural beliefs and traditions is encouraged. That's how it's been throughout US history. Yet Europe can't quite say the same thing. And now Western Europe is dealing with the severe repercussions of this type of segregation. So is it the ideally tolerant and open society one would think upon initial impression?

Every country has its positive and negative aspects, rooted quite often in long histories that none of those currenly living there can particularly be to blame for. Whether we like it or not, the United States was founded by some pretty puritan individuals who came to the United States in the first place to be free to practice their religion. They were not allowed to practice those beliefs in Europe, and so came here. What many of us view as oppressive right wing conservativism is a product of the very same situation and origins our Bill of Rights and constitution and principles of freedom and democracy are products of.

So, ya always take the good with the bad.

You know when I was in college I once considerd moving to Andorra

:beard: :beard: :beard: Steve

I hear you can get pretty good deals on hosting in Andorra!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by BDBionic

The fact that Muslim schoolgirls can't wear their headdresses/veils to school was borne from an intense desire to create a definitive separation between church and state (what many of us would consider to be progressive) yet at the price of not just individual schoolgirls' but a religions believers inability to practice their religion as they see fit (an imposition upon free speech we'd consider anything but progressive).

Look at militant Islamism in Europe, a phenomenon born from segregation. Here you have 1st and 2nd generation Muslims living in Western Europe but separated from mainstream society, that in turn being at the roots of events like the recent London train bombings and a decades-long history of some pretty intense Islamic militancy in Western Europe.

---

Try being a westerner and immigrating to Iraq, Iran, Afghanistan.. or any of the stans, or countries in the middle east.. and see how easy it is.. see how their society treats you... see how long you live.. yet our western society is accepting these people, it's like letting the fox in the chicken house.. it's stupid on our part.

Western society does not represent repression of women, lack of human rights, multiple wives, nor dictatorships, yet we are allowing people to immigrate that do hold these beliefs and don't want to change.

When someone, anyone, decides to immigrate to a country, they decide to live with people, and within a culture. Part of immigrating to a new country is knowing, and respecting, their laws, people, and culture.

If your religion, morals, or customs clash with those of the country you decide to immigrate to, then you need to decide in advance if you are going to live in that society or not. If you're going to live in that society then you need to accept their way of doing things, segregate yourself, or try and force change in the society.

Aggressive Islamic militancy in western society was planned. Muslims know when they immigrate to a western culture that our beliefs and morals are very different then theirs. At some point we as a society do stand up and say this is who we are and this is what we stand for. Enough is enough. Those "liberal" Islamic people that want to live in a western society to be free, too bad, ship them all back to the Middle East and let them change their own society unless they live by our laws and follow our beliefs. It's not like western society has a strict book of how to live.. we don't have a Koran.. There is nothing difficult about living in western culture, unless you're trying to change it. We've fought long and hard to make western society as rigidly free as it is now.. the last thing we need is MORE religious freaks out there trying to restrict everything.

Like BDBionic says.. take the good with the bad I guess.


Ok I'm stepping off the soap box now.. please continue.. :high:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by desslock

You know when I was in college I once considerd moving to Andorra

:beard: :beard: :beard: Steve

---

"Long isolated and impoverished, mountainous Andorra achieved considerable prosperity since World War II through its tourist industry. Many immigrants (legal and illegal) are attracted to the thriving economy with its lack of income taxes. "

Very interesting! Maybe there's a Mountain Man porn niche out there? :devil:

This one is for Desslock -

It's interesting how, when we are brought up in the United States, that we grow to think of the rest of the world as somehow the "third world". We say to ourselves in our smug little American way, but HERE we have "Freedom" -

Well, I currently live in Italy - the land where nothing works, and I have just as much freedom as I ever had in the US. And politically I see a hell of a lot more freedom, a much more vibrant and active democracy then I have ever experienced in the United States.

For example, there are some 30 different political parties, as opposed to the 2 in the US - both of whom represent, to a large extent, large corporate America. We have communists, leftests, socialists, social democrats (facsists) - and every political stripe in between. Not much gets done, but EVERYONE gets a voice in the democracy.

In Tuscany, where I live, school children are fed all organic food for school lunch - something Big Corp in the US has fought successfully in each school district it has tried. Huge corporations do not have a huge lobbying voice here, and unlike the US, they do not write all the laws!

My neighbors, on a whim, cannot run a credit report on me. I have a right to privacy. Credit card companies and banks are NOT allowed to charge usurous interest rates - and my landlord cannot throw me out of my home because he can get more money or because I am a few days late.

If I take a job here, I can't be fired just because (actually, this turns out to be a bit of a downside for Italy in many cases), I have health insurance, I get regular long vacations. I am not expected to place my professional life before my family.

At the start up of the War, over a million folks marched on Rome, and protests were wide and regular throughout Italy. The news media here actually covers the war - and we have the right to see the bodies on TV. The media itself is hugely diverse, and as a result Italians are far better informed about what goes on in the world than any US citizen. The media doesn't lose access to parliment because it is critical of Berlusconi - The media outlets he doesn't own are hugely critical of him, all the time.

I feel like our freedom in the US is illusory. We have the right to free speech - sure - but no one hears us. And, as you can see, it's limited. We have the right to a free press, but what's the diff if the press is all owned by GE and Westinghouse? We have the right to get representation from our congressmen and senators - but frankly, big business is footing the bill.

Essentially, what we have the "right" to do in the US is to work long hours for whatever pay we can get for mostly whatever conditions our employer sets for us, in the hope that if we are really lucky, someday we too will be part of the ruling class.

I am NOT saying everything is peachy keen here in Italy. It is full of stupid laws, socialism has myriad downsides, the beurocracy is a holy nightmare, it is really hard to get rich here too - but the freedoms we take for granted in the United States are, in reality, more protected and more real here then they ever were at home.

Best,

Shaun

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Squirt

...

---

Well I'm not of the impression things can be so easily attributed to the nature of Islam vs. that of prevailing cultural forces in the west. I believe that, more often than not, lurking below the surface of near any problem that appears religious in nature yields roots that are in fact political or socioeconomic.

And I think this is the case when it comes to what could be labeled as the conflict between the West and Islam.

If we go through the history of the clash of these two civilizations (broadly identifying "the West" as a single entity for sake of this argument) we can see various occasions on which either side was able to rightfully lay claim to the moral highground. Islam hasn't always been identified with radicalism and intolerance. When Christian Europe was adrift in the dark ages, the Muslim world was experiencing a golden age of science, mathematics, art and enlightenment. In Spain there existed the Spanish (Catholic) Inquisition that is the epitome of religious extremism and intolerance and was characterized by violence and brutality. The Crusades have been glorified in theory, but looking further in to them, it's not hard to see anything less than glory in how they were practiced.

Even in the US today, our complaints about the religious right and overbearing conservativism threatening our civil liberties are the result of a conflict between a segment of society most of us identify with and the opposing side guided by, at some point, religious motivations (that we often see as originating from and carried to the extreme).

At some point in history, a multitude of factors played out to create a situation in which Islamic extremism would clash with Western culture. Those factors included colonialism, a growing rift between the prosperity of the west and stagnancy near everywhere else, the cold war between capitalism and communism, the creation of Israel (indirectly, we should remember, an outcome of some quite heinous developments in the midst of Western Europe i.e. the holocaust), global economic interdependence, and the list goes on and on. My guess would be that if the Middle East was the center of Hinduism or Buddhism or Judaism (say, if there was a Palestine surrounded by hostile Jewish neighbors and populated by a kind of reverse-diaspora), and history played out the same way yet with different players, so to speak, we'd be battling terrorism from those elements instead. Islam was not so much the driving force behind this militant extremism as it was a common denominator with which it could identify itself and whose banner it could unite behind. A political movement that could appeal to religious beliefs for recruits and support. So the religious nature of it was actually an effect more than cause.

Western Europe has a long history of falling back upon racially driven ideology when sensing threats attributed to outside influences. We see that in Nazi fascism, the ability of considerably right wing political parties to do quite well in many national elections and appeal to that sensitivity among the public (even very recently), European anti-Semitism, the breakup of Yugoslavia, and the like. It's a recurring theme throughout European history.

I don't think marginalized immigrant communities can be handed all the blame for their marginalization, and I don't think that Muslims living in the United States can be accurately characterized as unwilling to integrate, not having proven themselves adept at integration, and incompatible with US culture and society as it exists. In fact I'd say that in the United States we've seen the exact opposite - Muslim Americans fully integrated in to American culture and society, fully American to every apparent respect, living happily here in this country, proudly residents and citizens, and contributing fully to their communities as Americans who happen to be Muslim. (So we have to ask, why has this not been the case in Western Europe?) Nor do I think we need an "Assimilate, or else!" kind approach to immigration with respect to Muslims in America any more than we needed with (but which generated a great deal of prejudice and intolerance towards) Irish or Italian Americans who faced a great deal of hostility when coming to the United States in the late 19th and early 20th centuries. I think the motivation to assimilate in to American society when an immigrant comes from the inherent benefits of doing so, rather than some mandated need to. And altering that equation can only cause problems and would only be extremely un-American. One could take a superficial glance at crime statistics in just about any urban area in the American Southwest and come away saying Hispanic Catholicism is entirely incompatible with US society and a threat to the American way of life. But that'd be a rather distorted conclusion to make.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by shaun

This one is for Desslock -
It's interesting how, when we are brought up in the United States, that we grow to think of the rest of the world as somehow the "third world". We say to ourselves in our smug little American way, but HERE we have "Freedom"

---

Well I would hope people would not get such a condesending impression of other countries. That is why I took German all through high school, and then minored in it in college.

Plus, I would suggest that there are people everywhere who feel like most other places (except where the happen to live of course) are the "Third World." For example, many people in Dallas think the earth is a flat object with themselves in the center, and the rest of mankind revolves around them. I've never really understood this kind of thinking.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by shaun

Well, I currently live in Italy - the land where nothing works, and I have just as much freedom as I ever had in the US. Credit card companies and banks are NOT allowed to charge usurous interest rates - and my landlord cannot throw me out of my home because he can get more money or because I am a few days late.

---

Well like I said --- I'm only saying that other countries are different. I'm not saying Italy sucks, or the US rules. I just think complaining about the US is ultimately baloney, especially if you fail to recognize what is right in front of you.

By the way, it is funny you specifically mention your freedom relating to banks and credit cards. This message thread cites how the United States is the best country where you can find credit card processing and banks that handle adult business.

This is precisely because our banking system is far less regulated then countries like Canada or Italy. Those regulations which "protect you" from high interest rates consequently cause banks to not enter into risky business areas... of which ours is a big one. This is also why countries end up with a handful of banks that make up the entire industry. There are just fewer opportunies for smaller banks in that kind of atmosphere. And since there is less competition, they don't need to touch something like Adult Business.

And you Europeans may have more insight to this - but that is why there is not as much credit cards useage in the countries over there. I think in Belgium the maximum credit card limit a bank can issue is $750. Once again, whether or not you have a moral stand about credit cards.... the business we participate in relies heavily on credit cards as a method of payment. This is also probably a factor in why the United States is such a large market for our adult website business.

This is also why Europe has developed payment methods via cell phones more handily then in the US... it is out of necessity, and necessity is the mother of invention.

Steve

Well - as to banks in Italy - um what - we have 3 banks left in the US? No, there are literally hundreds of banks here. Modern Banking was born in florence, as a matter of fact, with the Medici being the bankers for the vatican. More banks here than churches, I think.

It isn't a matter of competition - this one comes down to the downsides of socialism. Italians (and Europeans in geneeral) don't "compete" the way we do in America.

Honestly, the attitude is - so what if you don't like our bank. We don't care. We're just collecting a paycheck anyway. Take your business somewhere else... less work for us... more work for them.

Same with every other business here. Lots of competiton, but the fact is, the people who work here couldnt care less if you shop with them, or with someone else. They're busy on their cellphones. They have a vacation to plan.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MisterMark

I don't know all of the details, but the 2 attorneys I've worked with have said that the European Union now guarantees more privacy rights than the U.S.

---

To some extent that is true however, i wouldnt say that effects everyone with an overall blanket statement.

Personal privacy in the EU has been a big issue in the last couple of years and, certainly there have been some good laws / regulatory additions to protect an individuals privacy, especially their online privacy however, paraphrasing what someone else mentioned earlier in this thread (Brian i beleive) you take the good with the bad.

At the moment the EU is still in its infancy, as such, there is still a lot of in fighting between countries and, when the EU passes a law, it becomes legal EVERYWHERE in the EU, whether your previous law was more favorable than not.

There have also been some really stupid laws passed by the EU for example, did you know that in the EU you cant sell something as simple as a banana in a grocery store if it shorter than 5 inches in length? LOL

Whilst privacy is definately a good thing for anyone to have, moving somewhere for better privacy laws just isnt enough for me, i would rather go somewhere where their all round laws were more 'balanced' in addition to making sure the country / town etc i lived in was economically stable. There are still many countries in the EU that arent and, to visit them you'd think you had ended up in the third world.

Regards,

Lee