The Queen Returns

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Originally Posted by XXXWriterDude

But, in her new documentary, her wardrobe guy is a butch top, so there goes the stereotype of gay people being effeminate.

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Yes, because until the recent Madonna documentary, we never knew butch tops existed. Dude, I'm a priest fan.

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Visibility is a WONDERFUL thing for our community. Our reactions to such visibility, though, are ours to examine....

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Yeah, loved how her dancers were jackasses through the whole movie. Made me proud to be there.

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Pop music can't be taken seriously?

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I think I said "Too" seriously.

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Think again about making such a silly statement, Jasun, because a lot of people could say that Judas Priest and metal are tools of the devil. :)

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A lot of people think the world is 6000 years old and the dinosaurs were put there to fool us.

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Do you think that gay marriage benefit I went to last night would have made half as much money through standard mailings and phone calls? Hardly. With Margaret Cho and Pink and others on board, it brought in tons more than it otherwise might have.

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Maybe, but it's not like Pink can really turn down publicity this year, is it?

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Originally Posted by WWC-DonMike

My only beef with Madonna is that she always seems to be driven by money above everything else. Following up a brillian album like Ray of Light with the drek that was Music prooves that. It's like, here's an album for me, but wait, it didn't sell my usually multimillion copies, I'd better give the kids what they'll buy.

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Wow, I didn't think that at all. Madonna is a very savvy industry player. She understands the game, and she plays it well. But she also consistently breaks the tradition and does the things that she wants to that are NOT motivated by sales. Case in point: American Life is a record that was obviously not intended to service radio. So she's blown your theory out of the water right there. Madonna isn't motivated by money; she HAS tons of it. But she does want to stay in the public eye so that she can have her forum for saying the things she wants to say, so she does a more commercially driven record so that people buy it and listen to her. But that's her job. You can't reach people if they aren't buying your product. Many actors will tell you, things like (in Jake Gyllenhaal's case), "I'll go do The Day After Tomorrow so I can afford to do something like Brokeback Mountain." Madonna made a record like Music--which happens to contain two of her strongest songs ever ("Don't Tell Me" and "What It Feels Like for a Girl")--so that she can then do a record like American Life. Coming off a record like Music, to do American Life was a huge commercial risk for her, and it showed in the sales. Which may explain why she's doing another full-on dance record now--to climb her way back onto the charts. But Madonna is a genius when it comes to playing the game. And again, what's so wrong with that? Don't we all do that in our own jobs and with our websites? Give the people what they want. Hmmmmmm???

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Originally Posted by Jasun

Her movie. where all the gay dancers were rude, obnoxious assholes who were obcessed with fashion and being lame and spent a good deal of time picking on the straight dancer for sport.

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Again, they were DANCERS in the ENTERTAINMENT INDUSTRY. And for the record, the straight guy was a fuckin' homophobe. Which is WHY they picked on him for sport, because they knew it pissed him off. And baby, there's nothing wrong with fashion. :)

Okay, you two. Kiss and make up. Jasun, you're in too bad a mood today to be fighting over a Madonna thread, and Ken, don't egg him on, he's having a bad week. If you two ever met you'd totally get on famously. So I'm ending this thread right now with a picture of Paul Lynde!

http://www.nndb.com/people/953/000043824/paul-lynde.jpg

Ken and I HAVE met... we've gone drinking together, in fact. I'd go as far as to call him a "bud".

We both get it, this is a fun little arguement about a pop star.

Besides, aren't you just DYING to see us fuck now?

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Originally Posted by Jasun

Yes, because until the recent Madonna documentary, we never knew butch tops existed. Dude, I'm a priest fan.

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That's not the point, Jasun. You accused Madonna of only showing one side of the coin, and I'm giving you an example of how that is not true. Who cares if she's not the first person to represent that? The point is, she IS representing the different colors of the gay rainbow.

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Yeah, loved how her dancers were jackasses through the whole movie. Made me proud to be there..

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Oh, for pete's sake, they were all young dancers in their 20s on a Madonna tour. How else would they behave??? Hang out with a bunch of theater queens and you'll know what I mean. That's just who they are. But they have as much right to be represented as, say, a quiet, boring leather daddy from Ohio. You can't fault people for presenting stereotypes when they are presenting REAL people. It's just not fair. It's like going up to the guys on Queer Eye and saying, "Can you be less stereotypical?" You can't be a stereotype if you're a real person. It's just who you are.

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Maybe, but it's not like Pink can really turn down publicity this year, is it?

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Hmmm, fair enough. But Margaret Cho? Alan Cumming? You're saying they're all disingenuous? You know this for a fact?

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Originally Posted by Jasun

Ken and I HAVE met... we've gone drinking together, in fact. I'd go as far as to call him a "bud".

We both get it, this is a fun little arguement about a pop star.

Besides, aren't you just DYING to see us fuck now?

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LOL! You think I'd let a Madonna basher in my bed??? ;)

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Originally Posted by XXXWriterDude

LOL! You think I'd let a Madonna basher in my bed??? ;)

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One that looks like me?

fucking right you would.
:jasun:

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Originally Posted by Jasun

One that looks like me?

fucking right you would.
:jasun:

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Hmmm, arrogant AND he hates Madonna? You're really batting a thousand here today, Jasun. You forget; I gets TONS of sex already. I can afford to be discerning. :)

Anyway.. we laugh, we kid.. we get in our "Kee kee"s(whatever the hell that means), but in the end, it really is just pop music. Sure, pop music has chnaged the world, and in fact, chnaged my life (if it wasn't for Culture Club's "waking up the the house on fire", I would never have come out so early and never would have had the sense of pride I did at the time), but taking it too seriously is never a good idea. It's really just entertainment, like books, movies and naked dancing.

I'm really not a fan of Madonna now at all, and yes, she stil irritates me, but sure, when drunk at MJs, I'm sure I'll dance to the songs. (very drunk, mind you, so it'll just look like I'm staggering).

And if Ken doesn't want me dead now, I'm sure he'll be out there holding me up.

Did I not warn you!!! That's it! ATTACK, PAUL... ATTACK!!!!!!
http://www.paullynde.info/images/Pau...n%20Calvin.jpg

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Originally Posted by XXXWriterDude

You forget; I gets TONS of sex already. I can afford to be discerning. :)

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Just figured you'd want it with something that didn't have a slow leak.

Which means, of course, I won't be available on Bean Night.:joker:

You know, I honestly don't mind if people criticize Madonna, as long as they do it fairly. My biggest problem with most criticism about Madonna is that it's NOT fair. They judge her differently than they judge other artists. It's like she can do no right in their eyes, and that pisses me off to no end. I'm not blind by admiration for her so much so that I can't acknolwedge that she's done a few things she should be embarrassed by (in fact, I'm the first to admit that the lyrics for one of the new songs on her record are positively abysmal and that a few of her movies are rotten tomatoes), but that's another thing I appreciate her for--she's not afraid to fail big. She takes major risks, and she puts herself out there, she makes statements, she fucks with the establishment, she talks about things like love and unity, she fights for equal rights, she advocates personal freedom, and she writes damn good music and puts on damn good shows along the way. Occasionally she says something stupid or writes embarrassingly juvenile lyrics or comes off as a bit arrogant or bitchy, but she is a consumate artist who has seriously earned the right to do so.

Last night I was out with a buddy and was playing the new CD, and 10 seconds into every song, he had a reason cooked up for why it sucked--without even listening to them. "She's ripping off so and so here, she sounds like a skank there," etc. etc. It was infuriating. Never mind that rappers and TONS of other artists sample stuff in their songs. No one says anything when they do it. But Madonna does it and she's "a ripoff artist" who's "stealing" other people's songs. Whatever. People really just have it out for her, and it's usually demonstrated by their lack of fair, constructive criticism. That's what I am annoyed by.

And for the record, my annoyance really has nothing to do with Madonna specfically; I just don't appreciate closed-mindedness in any form. Even with things that annoy me personally, I recognize that there are many people out there who appreciate it, and I can see the artistic value in a lot of stuff, even if it doesn't personally speak to me. I am really annoyed by the Beastie Boys, but I actually acknowledge that they are pretty good musicians who write pretty decent songs. I try to give credit where credit is due. But it's the people who get an idea in their head about a certain artist and then make blanket asssertions about everything that artist does that really piss me off.

But all is good. I listen to it, and I just walk away knowing, "Oh, you're SO wrong." ;)

Well, I got treated to the new album last night.

I'll tell you what I think about it later. :jasun:

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Originally Posted by Jasun

The only song I know is "Hung Up" which is a note-by-note rip-off of "Boogie Ooogie Ooogie Woogie Dancing Shoes" and, although I only heard it a couple of times, it appears to be about how boring dance clubs are if you're not on drugs.

Whatever. I've had this arguement about Madonna so many times. I get it that it's all just a joke and that it's got that whole "Can you believe I'm getting away with this?" thing to it. But Pop music is supposed to be disposable.. it's fine.. I've got no problem with it, and I loved a lot of New Wave which is about as disposable as you can get.

Don't forget I used to work in Purchasing for a major record chain in Canada for years... Trust me, I've heard "Like a Prayer" and "Ray of Light" a zillion times. Still not a fan. Sorry.

But argueing with Madonna fans about anything Madonna related is like running head first into a wall. You're not going to win, and it just gives you a head ache.

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Madonna started out alone and broke in a tiny apartment with a couple synthesizers and drum machines. I'll always be a fan because of what she pulled off in those first few years. I understand what you mean though if you've never been a fan of her work. Socially it starts to be like Christianity on a much smaller scale. You can't escape it, you're expected to enjoy it, and there is no arguing against it.