For you, anytime Basschick.. :thumbsup:
For you, anytime Basschick.. :thumbsup:
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Originally Posted by basschick
Oh man... how many times have we seen movies with gay characters that were there only for the straight people to laugh at? The Bird Cage comes to mind... nobody learns anyting at all.. we get to laugh at the funny queers for a while, some silly hijinks get played out, and then the homophobic senator has to endure the humiliation of being in drag for a minute to escape unseen by the press... but he's just as homophobic at the end, hasn't changed, and the gay characters are still just there to laugh at.
oh, and the vaguely hompphobic son who's ruined his fathers' relationship skips merrily away.
Hollywood movies only depcit two kinds of gay characters... the screaming queen there for us to laugh at, or the cowarly closet case who dies of an sTD or gay bashing in the third act.
Not sure why I should be supporting this film at all.
But then again.. that's just me.
If this film reaches some gay kid in Illinois and shows him that he's gotta come out or he'll die lonely.. well.. maybe a bit of good is done.
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Originally Posted by basschick
Again, the fate of Jake's character is ambiguous. In the book, it is made clear that the gay-bashing is Ennis' version of what happens to Jack. In the film, it is also made clear that it is Ennis' imagination. Now, whether one choose to believe that Jack dies b/cuz of a gay-bashing depends on whether or not one chooses to subscribe to a victim complex. The explanation for Jack's death is very specific, and I don't see that there is any reason to believe that he died of any other cause. Unless you WANT to believe that.
I'm more than well aware of Hollywood's track record in its presentation of gay characters. Philadelphia and In and Out are both well-meaning but very flawed films in that they are non-threatening, emasculated presentations of gay people.
But the biggest problem with those films is that the characters are living in the modern day, when gay people have made a lot more advancements socially. Again, the thing to remember in watching Brokeback is that it depicts the experience of two men living in Wyoming in the 1960s, a totally different time and place. I'm sorry, but you'd have to be pretty ignorant--or somebody who is looking for a reason to trash the movie--to equate gay people of the 1960s to gay people of today. It just doesn't mesh. This film does NOT represent today's gay community. It does not intend to. It merely represents the experience of two characters who felt that, because of the time they were living in and experieces they had had, they were not able to live openly as gay partners.
It's also VERY worth noting that Jake Gyllenhaal's characters DOES attempt to convince Heath Ledger's character to shuck social convention and settle down together. This VERY important part of the story is one that Jasun chose to overlook. I don't see that as a representation of him being spineless at all. So he goes back to his wife and kids and lives the life of a "straight man." Big deal. So do THOUSANDS of men today. Spineless? Maybe. But it's also called REALITY. And THAT is what I look for in the movies that I go to see, not ridiculously trite happy Hollywood endings in which all the characters learn something. Some of my favorite movies are those in which we are presented with a slice of life. I don't need to be spoonfed a trumped-up happy ending to say that a film has merit. I'm sorry, but that's just silly.
What I like about Brokeback is that it does not shy away from the men's sexual relationship. The initial sex scene is extremely graphic and even brutal. It's not a "Hollywood-ized" sex scene at all. There's no hint of romance or seduction. It's a bold depiction of male-on-male intimacy. Furthermore, this is really the first Hollywood film--apart from Making Love--that has the balls to let its gay characters engage in such sexual relations with each other--and they DON'T feel guilty for having done so. The characters are not victims of guilt or shame. They are clearly in love with each other and clearly WANT to be with each other. The only thing stopping them--in their minds, yes--is society's attitude toward gay people. But it does not stop them from being together every chance they get. I'm sorry, but this is a very prevalent reality even today. Lots of people still do the things that are expected of them, and you know what... some of them never learn.
The truth is that Hollywood is infamously slow on making movies that show gay--or even black or Asian--characters living free and clear of others' expectations. Brokeback, however, is a bold step for Hollywood. It's a love story in the grandest Hollywood tradition. They don't treat these characters any differently because they are gay. They get the same treatment as the characters in The Age of Innocence and Casablanca--two other films that do not have happy endings for their characters. In fact, one could even look at this as a gay Casablanca. Personally, I think it was more bold of Annie Proulx to tell this story, to NOT pander to the gay community's insistence that all representations of gay characters be those in which the characters are fully adjusted and living out and proud lives. I want to see flawed characters. I WANT to see characters who don't always make the "right" choices. Sorry, but I want REAL LIFE.
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Originally Posted by Jasun
For the record, I think this is a good representation of perhaps an underlying reason for you not liking the film. It would certainly seem to indicate such a thing. It's what I felt was coming through in your earlier posts, even if you didn't say so directly.
oh, it's exactly why I didn't like it.
that, and it was kinda boring.
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Originally Posted by Jasun
Weren't you the one who said,
I think you just said it. :)Quote:
at what point did I suggest I was being harsher on it because of gay characters?
I have to disagree with you jason, I finally saw the movie and I have to say being from a samll cowtown in the middle of nowhere and being a child in the 60's and 70's I felt like I was looking at what could have been. I go back to that place every now and then and see the same guys I fucked in high school there with their aging wives and college age kids....
The probably feel pity for me (being gay and out) and I feel pity for them......
I got out as far as I am concnerned I was the lucky one...
I did wince at one point in the movie when Heath Lefger was talking about two old gay men that lived close to them and one was dragged to death and left to die becasue he was gay.....Something close to that happend in my home town about 15 years ago.....A man clubbed to death in his dairy milking cows while his lover and mother were in town xmas shopping.....Hard to believe that something like that could happen...It left a very chilling affect on me.....YOU CAN NEVER GO BACK.....YOU ARE NOT WELCOME HERE.
It might not have been perfect but too me it was very real. I have to say after seeing most of the gay themed movies that have come out over the past few years I enjoyed this tremendously....