CCBill vs. Epoch (My Experiences)

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Originally Posted by Squirt

I like the fact that Ken constantly addresses these issues and never backs down or plays the victim. It's nice seeing strong characters speak their mind and make solid points :groovy:

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Thanx, Squirt. You were, in fact, the THIRD person to send me either an email, an IM or make a post on a board congratulating me on something I posted in this thread. I appreciate the support.

I just think the mentality on the boards has become far too obtrusive and judgmental these days. And, from what I've seen, heard and learned first-hand, not that many people in this industry have that much room to throw stones. Somewhere along the line, almost every one of us has made a business decision that was purely motivated by our bottom line, but doing so doesn't change the fact that, ultimately, one still wants to service the industry and their community.

News flash: Except for non-profit organizations, there are very few businesses that exist solely for the purpose of community. It wouldn't be a business if it was. For most businesses, contributing to the betterment and strength of its community is simply the icing on the cake, not the main reason for being around. I guarantee you most business owners whose businesses bring together the community in some way thought at the outset, "There's got to be a way for me to make money off of helping the community." Make no mistake, though: Money is the main objective for most business owners. Otherwise, they wouldn't be good business owners. I'm sure many of them have taken shortcuts here and there to expedite the process, but, in my opinion, if at least 75 to 80% of what they do is good for the community, I can forgive the 20 to 25% that's purely for their pockets.

This is an incredibly clique-ish industry. Oftentimes, the dramas I see taking place seem to be based more upon one's relationship (or lack thereof) with the more high-profile industry players. So much of it feels like high school to me, and I find that is most exemplified on this site. It all feels so juvenile and immature to me. Let's not turn into the bullies who pushed us around in high school. Aren't we better than that?

When emotions are running high as they clearly are, people can find themselves with blinders on and the irony is those blinders nullify the calls for transparency and can prevent people from seeing what is in front of them.

While I am glad Joe shared the “back story” of Rainey’s move to Epoch to erase the serious misconceptions surrounding her departure. I did want to point out we were not holding back that information: since she had our blessing and as you now know, Epoch had our blessing, all of those who needed to know the most personal of details on an official basis were already in the loop. As far as transparency to the community however, the official news was broken by Joe in a thread posted on many webmaster boards that was as much a tribute as it was an announcement, to the extraordinary work Rainey did during her tenure at PrideBucks.com since that is something we were and are very grateful for. She remains someone we still consider “family” as our relationship transcended a purely a business one long ago and that is something that will not change.

It was a week or so after that post was made that we all, Joe, David, Rainey and I, attended the Xbiz Show together. When the threads started that announced Rainey’s move to Epoch, both Joe and I heartfully posted on those threads. Finally, Rainey and Juan attended GayVN Summit together so Rainey could officially pass the torch on and make sure everyone was introduced to Juan in his new official capacity. Of course not everyone attended those shows those though between Fubar’s and WebMasterLifestyle’s online galleries, those shows were well documented. Bottom line, between a dozen plus threads on half a dozen plus boards and two webmasters shows, the only thing that could have made the affability of this move any more transparent would have been for Joe, Dave and I to walk Rainey down the aisle in a ceremony covered by CNN (we actually thought about that but even though we had rented the “jaws of life” and hired the Ladies Regiment of the Royal Canadian Mounties, we still could not force Rainey to put on that damn dress…so we just abandoned the notion).

As far as lack of follow-up comment or back story concerning Patrick, I am very reluctant to speak for anyone BUT speaking for myself, since it involved some very public legal tussles involving contracts, non-competes etc, advice from lawyers on ongoing matters is “keep quiet” and the resolutions of them generally involve binding non-disclosure clauses.

Bottom line, Rainey and Patrick both have stellar reputations and deservedly so: with a more objective look at the circumstances and events of their moves, to imply they were unwitting pawns in some political chess match is an insult their experience, maturity and capabilities.

Likewise, and while I do tread lightly on the Pandora’s Box of the Gay Forum Saga, a more objective look at things also seem to be in order. PrideBucks was very involved in the GayPhoenixForum from several trips to the CCBill office to attend planning sessions to checking out some of the venues, to a gold level sponsorship, to designing the seminar programs to speaking on 3 panels and co-sponsoring a splashy off-site party on the second night with BadPuppy. While we appreciated the call from Sean at CCBill personally to let us know there would not be another forum, a classy move from a classy guy at a classy company, we were saddened but not surprised since many months had passed before there was even talk of dates being selected. The significance of that became clear during the regular Phoenix Forum when I looked at the inside cover of the Networking Guide and the back of the Program so see the dates for next year’s regular Phoenix Forum were printed there which means the dates had been set in stone a full year plus in advance. At the very least, that indicates not just “when”, but even “if” there would be a second gay phoenix forum was far from a slam dunk certainty. So with months having passed and no announcement of a second gay forum much less a date, AVN saw an opportunity and capitalized on it. Could that be called opportunist, indeed, but business is business and that decision is not dissimilar to what we all do everyday: find an opportunity and seek to profit from it. Was it a shrewd move – a cunning one: most certainly but at least to me, not the conspiratorial community splintering jihad that has been portrayed. With regular webmaster shows now occurring monthly if not more often in some cases, 2 gay shows spread over a year is not a huge stretch of the imagination. At least on the back of my gay card, it does not say that October and the West Coast is the only time and place a gay webmaster conference could be held: there are 11 other months and many other geographic choices that could have been chosen if CCBill was committed to having a second forum. This does not mean CCBill is anything other then gracious, supportive of our community and a wonderful processor: I would say the same thing for Epoch.

We are all in this to make money and we all make our living one sale at a time: perhaps the best way to mind our business starts with minding our own business.

WELL...

My thanks to XXXWriterDude and Harlan, for your wonderful writing skills and being able to explain details. I personally see no reason for me to continue asking questions, with the current soap opera, due to Harlans FULL comment.

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Originally Posted by Harlan

When emotions are running high as they clearly are, people can find themselves with blinders on and the irony is those blinders nullify the calls for transparency and can prevent people from seeing what is in front of them.

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What I remain concerned about, as one of the many small players in this game is

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Originally Posted by Harlan

We are all in this to make money and we all make our living one sale at a time: perhaps the best way to mind our business starts with minding our own business.

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And that is where I take issue. Some call my Gay lifestyle a NICHE. I personally am dealing with severe competition (as we all), with successful Gay programs merging and Straight programs wanting a piece of the Gay pie.

I find no fault in many here questioning the BIG COMPANIES, for their decision to have or not have a show, to close websites, and all of the variations trickles down and affects ME.

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Originally Posted by wnc

WELL...

What I remain concerned about, as one of the many small players in this game is And that is where I take issue. Some call my Gay lifestyle a NICHE. I personally am dealing with severe competition (as we all), with successful Gay programs merging and Straight programs wanting a piece of the Gay pie.

I find no fault in many here questioning the BIG COMPANIES, for their decision to have or not have a show, to close websites, and all of the variations trickles down and affects ME.

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wnc, thank you for your response which reminded me that sometimes it is both what you say and how you say it so please let me clarify we are in total agreement: this is the perfect place to ask questions of companies big and small - the dangerous territory I saw being entered into was not the posing of the questions, but answering them without the benefit of having all of the facts and establishing an enviroment so combative it would be all but impossible for those who were in the know to comment one way or another. This is likely to never be an issue to everyone's satisfaction and while some may forgive, some may forget, I hope most of us will simply move ahead.

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Originally Posted by Harlan

Likewise, and while I do tread lightly on the Pandora’s Box of the Gay Forum Saga, a more objective look at things also seem to be in order. PrideBucks was very involved in the GayPhoenixForum from several trips to the CCBill office to attend planning sessions to checking out some of the venues, to a gold level sponsorship, to designing the seminar programs to speaking on 3 panels and co-sponsoring a splashy off-site party on the second night with BadPuppy. While we appreciated the call from Sean at CCBill personally to let us know there would not be another forum, a classy move from a classy guy at a classy company, we were saddened but not surprised since many months had passed before there was even talk of dates being selected. The significance of that became clear during the regular Phoenix Forum when I looked at the inside cover of the Networking Guide and the back of the Program so see the dates for next year’s regular Phoenix Forum were printed there which means the dates had been set in stone a full year plus in advance. At the very least, that indicates not just “when”, but even “if” there would be a second gay phoenix forum was far from a slam dunk certainty. So with months having passed and no announcement of a second gay forum much less a date, AVN saw an opportunity and capitalized on it. Could that be called opportunist, indeed, but business is business and that decision is not dissimilar to what we all do everyday: find an opportunity and seek to profit from it. Was it a shrewd move – a cunning one: most certainly but at least to me, not the conspiratorial community splintering jihad that has been portrayed. With regular webmaster shows now occurring monthly if not more often in some cases, 2 gay shows spread over a year is not a huge stretch of the imagination. At least on the back of my gay card, it does not say that October and the West Coast is the only time and place a gay webmaster conference could be held: there are 11 other months and many other geographic choices that could have been chosen if CCBill was committed to having a second forum. This does not mean CCBill is anything other then gracious, supportive of our community and a wonderful processor: I would say the same thing for Epoch.

We are all in this to make money and we all make our living one sale at a time: perhaps the best way to mind our business starts with minding our own business.

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HOORAY FOR HARLAN!!! What a gracious, well-thought-out and objective post. It's about time someone came forward with a well-balanced take on what's been going on. :)

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Originally Posted by wnc

What I remain concerned about, as one of the many small players in this game is And that is where I take issue. Some call my Gay lifestyle a NICHE. I personally am dealing with severe competition (as we all), with successful Gay programs merging and Straight programs wanting a piece of the Gay pie.

I find no fault in many here questioning the BIG COMPANIES, for their decision to have or not have a show, to close websites, and all of the variations trickles down and affects ME.

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There's no fault at all in questioning companies--big or small--about business practices. Doesn't mean they have to answer, though. :)

There's a difference between asking questions and posing the questions as accusations, as many on this board are want to do, though. My objections are with this odd sense of entitlement that many seem to have. They think they have some kind of right to know the inner workings of other organizations, and if they don't, they accuse those businesses of underhanded dealings. If this business were truly about transparency, then webmasters would never be allowed to decline interviews for feature stories in AVN Online simply because they didn't want to give away trade secrets. You don't hear me flying into fits of rage when WhateverBucks rep Joe Blow says, "I can't answer that question about our traffic. We don't want out secrets getting out."

Transparency is great, I agree, but tact is even more important, and if the people in this industry don't figure out the balance between the two, then they may never graduate from being small-time players to the big leagues they obviously so desire to be part of. It's great to think one's self noble and righteous, but the danger is that one can become self-righteous and sanctimonious, which has been well demonstrated on these pages in these threads.

I've said this before and I'll say it again: AVN took advantage of a situation that was both beneficial to us and presented a major opportunity for us to benefit the community as well. For us not to have done so would have been a foolish move on our part. That's my personal opinion, and it's one that any level-headed business person would agree with. And that's really all that needs to be said, as far as I'm concerned. That's what people NEED to know. The rest, frankly, is none of their damned business.

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Originally Posted by XXXWriterDude

HOORAY FOR HARLAN!!! What a gracious, well-thought-out and objective post. It's about time someone came forward with a well-balanced take on what's been going on. :)

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Well its nice to get the info that we all asked for at the start of all this.
And it makes more sense to me now.
But why was this info just not given to us at the start of all this!!!
It's a pity that all this back and forth and bad will could have, for the most part been avoided.
Maybe all of your hands and lips were tied about this, but it was the silence that put all of you in the position that you are in now.

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Originally Posted by CamCruise

Well its nice to get the info that we all asked for at the start of all this.
And it makes more sense to me now.
But why was this info just not given to us at the start of all this!!!
It's a pity that all this back and forth and bad will could have, for the most part been avoided.
Maybe all of your hands and lips were tied about this, but it was the silence that put all of you in the position that you are in now.

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Um, have you ever tried to get five gay men to choose on one restaurant, let alone coordinate their statements so as not to publicly step on each other's toes? LOL!

I'm kidding, of course! Well, partly. But to be honest, the majority of people doing all the griping were those who, frankly, don't even attend or support shows in the first place. It may come as a shock to some, but the majority of business between all the companies involved isn't getting done by spending time on message boards. Some of the people invovled have much more important things to do than come on here and address the crap that gets said about us all the time, most of which is totally untrue and/or motivated by personal vendettas. After a while, you just start ignoring it completely. Like Madonna. :)

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Originally Posted by XXXWriterDude

There's no fault at all in questioning companies--big or small--about business practices. Doesn't mean they have to answer, though. :) There's a difference between asking questions and posing the questions as accusations, as many on this board are want to do, though. My objections are with this odd sense of entitlement that many seem to have.

I've said this before and I'll say it again: AVN took advantage of a situation that was both beneficial to us and presented a major opportunity for us to benefit the community as well. For us not to have done so would have been a foolish move on our part. That's my personal opinion

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Originally Posted by XXXWriterDude

Um, have you ever tried to get five gay men to choose on one restaurant, let alone coordinate their statements so as not to publicly step on each other's toes? LOL! I'm kidding, of course!

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AVN was never an issue. Business is business.

Gosh. My issue is with EPOCH, suddenly going GAY.

Read another thread where someone WELL KNOWN here asked a question - and a SUDDEN EPOCH response. I hope MY question in that thread is also responded to as quickly.

http://forums.gaywidewebmasters.com/...ad.php?t=23527

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Originally Posted by wnc

I hope MY question in that thread is also responded to as quickly.

http://forums.gaywidewebmasters.com/...ad.php?t=23527

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Keep on hoping, you may get an answer one day :)

Regards,

Lee