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I have heard that some studios have contracts like that. If an actor doesn't perform (cum or get off) they don't get paid. A model recruiter that I hired form a fairly large membership website asked to have our contract changed to have wording it in the basically said that a model would not get paid for the shoot if they could not perform. Please note we are not using this form, I think if we were paying 2 to 3k per scene I might be, but at the moment we are not so I'm not to worried about it.
I think this is getting off topic. My stance, if a model can give you no part of any scene, then fine don't pay. If a model comes in and says "ugh, I am not doing him" or is uncooperative, then fine. If a model comes and really tries, and you get any part of a scene, even if you just get soft core nude pics, if a producer gets ANYTHING that is usable, that they will consider using, the model should be paid for that portion of the work.
If the model gets fucked on camera but cannot cum, they should still get paid. Cum shots aren't *that* hard to fake, I have done it in the past, and no one has ever noticed that it wasn't real cum.
The thing we have with Hyde Park is that the model did 2 web cam shows, and he did complete one scene. He was told he was going to get paid, and by all accounts, he should be paid.
If what Derekt is saying is that he won't pay, but still may use the video, IMO that is just fucked up. And saying if you can't perform then don't apply, well you must not have spent much time in front of the camera, it can be stressful for the models, sometimes, they aren't going to be able to get hard, telling them to just leave, isn't going to resolve the situations. Models are very venerable while in front of a camera, and I think the whole situation should be handled with great care, and great respect for the models.
If anything, telling them to leave, and treating them in such a manner will just if anything give them a complex about it. Models are people, they aren't these robots that are going to perform perfectly every single time, and you can't be fast just to fuck them over the first chance you get. Sure we have a business, but we rely on models, and taking care of them, and making them comfortable, as well as safe while working with producers should be a number 1 priority.
Keep in mind that the model in question told the studio up front that he was a bottom. When he arrived at the shoot, he was asked to top. He told them that it would be difficult but he would try. It didn't work out. Then they asked him to top again. Again it didn't work out.
If a studio hires a model as a bottom and then asks him to top and isn't happy with the results, they have no one to blame but themselves. Good planning and casting for a shoot prevents these sort of problems from happening.
Under the circumstances (where a studio asks a model to do something outside of what the model is comfortable doing) then it's not at all unreasonable to pay the model for the attempt. And besides, by the studio's own admission, they agreed to pay him.
Just wanna make another post.
What chip said is true. I told them I was mostly a bottom but They wanted me to do a flip fuck scene and another scene. I said id try. I got hard but I couldn't fuck the guy.
The movie I did with them was winning the bet for dark realm productions. The website is the same as the studio name..just add .com and u will see the video. There were 3 scenes in it, Plus the main scene, where there was hot wax on me, flogging and paddling and fucking and sucking.
While I think 250 for a scene as intense as that is kinda low..w/e
ALSO
As of right now hyde park had recieved my letter in the mail,but they are ignoring me once again on yahoo and aim :( O well. I dunno guess things arnt ment to work out :\
L8erz
K
Yes.... One time a model was tweeked out on crystal meth to where he couldn't even sit still. Then he sweated a storm. We did not pay him because he lied on one of our "Confirmation Forms" that he was not "high" on the date that he signed the model contracts and 2257 Record Keeping Form. We did not pay him, sent him home, we used clips of the video on for promotional purposes. We did not use the video this model was in for DVD Sale purposes.
On another incident. The model could not cum or stay hard. We sent him home. We did use the video, we did not compensate him. It states in the model contract in bold print that we will do this. The model signed it. The model was aware that we were doing this. We reserve this right.
If it is stated in the contract that the model cannot perform, he is sent home without payment and we reserve the rights to use the video. There is a line next to this area that the model initials for confirmation.
This is not something of which we strive on. We're not hoping the model will not perform. We have paid over 500 models. And we will gladly compensate the model if he performs of what we ask. All we ask is that they get hard, stay hard, provide us with a cumshot. There have also been small instances of which we have even faked a model cumshot so that we could 1) use the video. 2) Pay the model.
I hope this answers your questions.
Wow that's really not cool! Regardless of what your contract says, using a models likeness in anyway and not paying them for it is at least in part what gives this industry a sleazy stigma.
You guys are a real class act. I don't care how high the model was, using a video of a model after you didn't pay him is immoral. I guess coming from you guys though, its just par for the course.Quote:
Originally Posted by derekt
Your contract can say anything you want it to. This is yet another thing that I don't get about producers, they think that if they write it on a piece of paper, and a model signs it, that it is a binding contract. If the model was high and you know it, as you have stated on a public message board, chances are, the model could challenge that contract just on that basis, and you guys could be in trouble.
What was so wrong with the model that you could use a promotional video but you couldn't pay him for that?
I suppose it's a company's perogative to do what they want (within the confines of the law.) But, contract or no, I think that if a model were to dispute it, one would have a hard time justifying the right to use content for which the model had not been compensated. And legal or not, from an ethical standpoint, I have a hard time justifying the use of the content, regardless of whether it's for promo use or on a commercial product.
If the model is high or drunk, we send them home, period. We don't pay them, and we certainly don't photograph them.
And, as Seth said, it's those sort of abusive policies that gives the industry a bad reputation. Having sex on camera isn't an easy thing to do, and if a model is making an honest effort to do his best to do a good job, and isn't high or drunk, giving them some compensation goes a long way toward the model feeling good about their experience, which translates to the model saying good things about the studio. But I guess some studios are just too shortsighted to see that.
The thing about this is also, it may start out with "HPP filmed me and released the video without paying" by the time the model has told a few friends (oh, and trust me, they ALWAYS will tell about bad experiences, every producer has heard horror stories about other studios) it ends up after a few friends get the message like this, "my friend did porn, and they put out the video and didn't even pay him."Quote:
Originally Posted by gaybucks_chip
The studio name starts getting left out of the story, and then you have every producer in the industry paying the price, and we all already have enough stigma on our industry. A few studios fucking it up worse isn't helpful.
Kyle If you did Hot Wax,Flogging and paddling in MY REALM you performed!Quote:
Originally Posted by kyleyoung89
Many if not most BS&M sites do not even require SEX! pay runs from 750- 1500 a scene. 250 for such an intense scene is Robbery IMO plus you didn't get paid which is a Fraud.
Got news for you Kyle if you don't get paid I am taking this public and I will Name Hyde Park and Tag them on my Blog so any future models looking to work for Hyde Park will be aware of the way they treat models!
This is Unacceptable behavior and the fact they have not publicly responded tells me they can't Defend their Actions!
DeWayne,Quote:
Originally Posted by Dilbertdidporn
You are not a content producer. You have limited knowledge of what a few producers might pay for scenes. So please stop posting on an industry board and making unsupported blanket statements as though they are fact.
The range of what studios pay is all over the map. I know of one studio that pays $75 for a solo and has no problem finding models. I know of another one that pays between $1200 and $2000 for a solo. As for BDSM content, I know of more than one studio that shoots it, ranging from light to aggressive, with pay ranges between $150-250 per scene. I know other studios that pay more.
I am not defending Hyde Park by any means, but they are a smaller studio that does not sell thousands of units per title, and sells most of their units at a pretty low price, so it is unlikely their budget would support the kind of numbers you're quoting.
It's this sort of irresponsibility that causes problems. Kyle's pay may have been on the low end of the spectrum, but it is well within the range of what studios of that size pay their models. If Kyle works with a larger studio with bigger distribution, they may offer him more money, but it's wrong to make blanket statements when you don't have the information to back it up, and it's disruptive to the industry to create false expectations about what "the going rate" is.
Exactly. Once again, Chip, you have taken my thoughts and put them succinctly to words. Part of the problem we get with newer models is that they claim to know what the "going rate" is when I tell them what I pay per shoot. Those models typically have either worked for only one company before, or have friends in porn who fill their head with bullshit numbers based on what THEY make. My scale typically slides based on prior experience, but I don't pay any less than $400 - $500 for a hardcore.Quote:
Originally Posted by gaybucks_chip
I have heard this story before from many, MANY models who have worked for Hyde Park, including Casey Wood, who just shot 4 scenes for me for a website and walked away with 2k. We paid him each day after the scene was completed.
So yeah... bigger studios pay more money. I shoot exclusive content for 3-4 studios on a continuous, monthly basis and each site has a different pay scale. However, Hyde Park should NOT have released this movie before the model was paid. I made that mistake ONCE and am still paying for it... I will never, NEVER make that mistake again.
R.
Sounds like you are trying to convince yourself and us in order to justify your actions? Not cool at all. I feel bad for the model.Quote:
Originally Posted by derekt
I had a model show up high once. He tried to hide it. I can't drug test him on the spot and I can't simply accuse him, so after four hours, I told him to quit wasting my time and perform or get out. He did, we paid him, we used the content.
Which is what you should have done, instead of use content that you admittedly did not pay for... regardless if a model who was under the influence when he signed his release agreed to those terms or not.
R.
Chip I know more than YOU think!Quote:
Originally Posted by gaybucks_chip
People Talk and they talk to me you think YOU know who I am?
You don't, my persona in this world is just 2 years old I have been around Chip I have been around. You would be surprised who I have talked to.
I have LIVED in San Diego my whole adult life!
Dont tell me about BDSM afield and fetish I KNOW!
I know players in it and EVERY BDS&M site on the web. The best players I have steered models to.
Do you think if a model Asks me about Hyde Park I'll recommend them?
And they are NOT producing BDS&M in any event just posing!
Chip I know more about pay scales in this buisness and I agree you will pay what you can get away with all producers are this way Unless your Sean Cody or Corbin Fisher or Titan Raging Stallion. Who Can Afford to pay the Best!
250 dollars a scene is Lativan wages! thats a fact I know bottom feeders who pay 650-750! I have sent models TOO THEM so I know they were paid that rate!
Rufus Ffoulkes paid MORE than Hyde Park!
And where is the irresponsibility on my part?
Models need to know what they can expect to be paid or is this a Trade Secret?
In what world do you tell your models oh I can't tell you what you will make?
They are not ALL Stupid as independent contractors they know they have value they know what they can get at an A studio. If someone can't pay a fair rate should they be in buisness?
And what is a fair rate?
You just posted figures wider than the 750-1500 I stated. I am well aware rates go above that and below I was aiming for the middle.
What I stated is not out of line on pay either and THAT can and has been backed up! I saw the checks I know what the model was paid!
To say otherwise is to call Me a liar.
Believe me Chip I am not being "Disruptive to an Industry" here but it sounds like you want to sweep Hyde Park under the rug and in the closet with the rest of the dirty laundry.
How does this help the good people in the biz?
IMHO If a model agrees to work for a wage and the produce agrees, that is a fair wage my 2cQuote:
Originally Posted by Dilbertdidporn
Not paying a model is a whole different story. I have models that beg to work for me, and are willing to do so for free. I would NEVER have a model walk away not getting paid.
Hyde Park does deserve to be swept under the rug with the rest of the dirty laundry, if this is how they do business, they deserve nothing else.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dilbertdidporn
I am not taking sides, as obviously you and chip don't agree on much. I think you have great things to say, and I have seen things when you are right and Chip IMO has been wrong, so don't take this personal.