(potentially?) controversial topic - Sponsors vs Affiliates

I almost never agree with Lee, but I do here. Most affiliates are LAZY. I wouldn't say they're overpaid; the ones who actually promote the sponsors do a *lot* of work and they deserve to get paid for that work.

But look at what affiliates have pushed for over the past couple of years...
Make for us...
- reg banners, odd-sized banners, magazine squares, buttons, skyscrapers, fpa's, hpa's - we used to everything but the reg/fpa/hpa ourselves, but it's just too much work now
- resized pics, that we use to resize ourselves
- gallery templates, that we used to make ourselves
- galleries, that we used to do ourselves
- freesites, that we used to do ourselves
- blog entries, that we used to do ourselves
- RSS feeds, so we don't even have to come to you to get the blog entries you've made for us. YOU update our sites! Yeah!
- Give us hosting, that is only $5/mo but we don't wanna pay for it.
- Buy us domains, only $9/yr but we don't wanna pay for that either.
- Get us epassporte cards, only $25 to set up (and we get $20 back) but that's just too much money. We could buy beer with that.
- Don't just give us videos to use, cut them up for us too.
- While you're at it, make the video templates and galleries too
- Pay us bi-weekly. No, make that weekly. No actually, make that *instantly*. And don't you dare take chargebacks out of our money.
- We know the payouts are the highest in history, but we also want "points". You know, like Marlboro points. Points we can cash in for even more money, on top of the highest payouts in history. Or cars. Or high-tech expensive toys.
- Oh, and even though these are the highest payouts in history, and you need to still make money somehow, we want you to get rid of your consoles. But only sometimes, not all the time. So invest tons of time and money rebuilding your backend so we can get rid of them when we submit to GreenGuy.
- Make us full-page "matrix" ads so we don't even have to put up our own screenshot thumbnails with our linking codes.
- While we're at it, how about you tell us what keywords we should be optimizing for. 5 minutes doing it ourselves is just too much work.
- You know what? Search engines are just too darn hard. Make a search engine for us that will automatically put our domains at the top and have ads with our linking codes.
- Come to think of it, buying a tgp script is too expensive, and building a fake TGP is just too much work. Build us a TGP with all of our links that auto-rotates, auto-updates, and has all of our links.
- Oh oh oh! Almost forgot. Stats. Logging in to view your stats, then logging in to view your competitor's stats is just too much work and takes too much time. So buy us free copies of StatsRemote. We know, it's only $20/mo and we could more than cover that with one signup, but why should we pay for it when you will?

I'm sure I could keep going, hopefully I don't have to.
Affiliates have gotten incredibly lazy, incredibly greedy, and they feel a sense of entitlement to all of these things and more. The bar to entry has been lowered so far, it's underground in the magma. The *only* ones who can stop this madness are the ones who started feeding the beast in the first place - the sponsors.

Cut the shit out, cut the fluff. Let those greedy webmasters go flocking to some other sponsor, let that other sponsor tout all of his "tools" (ie all the work he's done FOR them), let his program get oversaturated, let his signups drop into the tank.

I mean, does it *really* have to get to the point where the sponsor will completely build a site, host it, buy a domain name for it, feed it traffic, and send a check to a webmaster just because the webmaster signed up? Because it's getting damn close to that! Everything is there, all one sponsor needs to do is say "We'll put it all together for you. Just sign up, and we'll send you a check for no reason whatsoever. No work on your part at ALL. That's how much we love our affiliates!" Does it really have to get that far before the madness will end?

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Originally Posted by Carrie

I mean, does it *really* have to get to the point where the sponsor will completely build a site, host it, buy a domain name for it, feed it traffic, and send a check to a webmaster just because the webmaster signed up? Because it's getting damn close to that! Everything is there, all one sponsor needs to do is say "We'll put it all together for you. Just sign up, and we'll send you a check for no reason whatsoever. No work on your part at ALL. That's how much we love our affiliates!" Does it really have to get that far before the madness will end?

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Carrie,

Beleive it or not, there are sponsors out there right this minute that ALREADY do that LOL

We had a discussion about this [the sponsors doing everything and still paying their affiliates] a couple of months ago and the program owner basically told all of us, that we were crazy when we suggested instead of paying affiliates for all that work he was doing, he should pay himself, this sponsor just didnt seem to understand the logic that by paying all of his outsourced employees AND paying his affiliates for THEIR work, that he was losing money hand over fist.

Regards,

Lee

Carrie, have you ever asked a sponsor for any of the things on your list? I sure haven't. As far as I can see, it's the competition between sponsors over affiliates that gets them that way. Nobody told them to babysit affiliates. If it's bad business, then don't do it. Instead, I see sponsors that do these things, at least some of them, then come crying that affiliates are greedy and lazy. Nobody forced them to offer these things in the first place.

It's just like with payouts. Why do some programs get up to crazy payments like $125 per sign up or offer 80% of revenue? because they feel they have to go out of their way to compete over affiliates, and that's because like our friend LB said somewhere else, this is becoming a top-heavy industry with too many programs relying on the affiliate model and competing over a limited pool of affiliates.

My point about the name calling still stands though. If you think most affiliates are lazy and greedy, then why are you trying to pull in those very affiliates by saying on your program that you have $44 PSU, tons of free content and promo tools. These are just the things to call in those noobs and "freeloaders" among affiliates. Just focus on hi-converting sites and friendly support, and make sure that the sites you have truly do convert and retain and are among the best in their niche. As a "good" affiliate, it's all I need to know. Give me stats about conversions (real ones too, not fake), tell me why your sites are the best, explain that you have exclusive content or how you cover your niche exceptionally well - those are the things to pull me into a program and actually promote it. I would be perfectly happy with sponsors that only pay 40% (I have those, I even promote a sponsor on only 35% on revshare), as long as the site actually converts and retains, and I trust the program not to shave in any way or form.

Note, that all of the above should be done prior to getting the affiliate to sign up and send you traffic, IMHO. Once you have someone promoting you and sending you traffic, I think you should honor your agreement with them and keep up the partnership.

Someone somewhere asked for it, or they wouldn't be doing it. I've never asked for much; I barely contact my sponsors at all, lol.

I did go on a rant to sponsors about getting their RSS feeds right if they were going to bother doing them - does that count? :bow:

Browse around in a sponsor's support forum and you'll probably be shocked at what you find.

Ok - here is the bottom line for me.

I do not want to run an affiliate program. I want to run a pay site. I want to focus on developing brilliant content, on hiring the hottest models, on being at the top of google in my niche (I am, by the way....)

If I want to give away 50% of a sale to an affiliate, I would like them to be doing the work to make the sale. Sure, I will give them some content they can use - they can raid my cookie jar for movie clips and pictures, and I will give them banners and stuff...

But - why would an affiliate WANT me to dilute my time and concentration away from running my SITE???? It is the SITE that they are selling! If I am spending oodles of time building FHG's, free sites, new tours, etc... well - heck, I can list em on green guy myself! If I build galleries, I can submit em myself! It takes me HOURS to create a gallery, but only minutes to submit it!

The idea behind affiliate marketing, behind franchising is this: I give you a terrific product to sell. It is YOUR job to sell it. EVERY MINUTE and EVERY DOLLAR I spend on helping you learn to sell the product is a minute and dollar that isn't being spent on giving YOU a great product.

I KNOW how much marketing I do. I know how much money my marketing makes. So, if someone wants to resell my product, work regular office type hours, and to be serious about it - I would venture a guess that he or she could make a decent living - even if my sites were the ONLY product they were selling!

So - WHY should an affilate - a good affiliate who KNOWS how to work in this industry - even WANT me to spend that much time running an affiliate program rather than running a site? It is in every good affiliates best interest that I do what I do best - making a gret site, and in thier best interest to do THEIR job - letting everyone know about my great site and why they should join!

Let me ask you then, Shaun, why do you take on affiliates in the first place? Sounds to me like you're doing the marketing very well, why bother with affiliates at all? I think it's perfectly legitimate not to have affiliates working for you. Just because other paysites are doing it, does not mean it's a good model for every paysite.

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Originally Posted by tigermom

Let me ask you then, Shaun, why do you take on affiliates in the first place? Sounds to me like you're doing the marketing very well, why bother with affiliates at all? I think it's perfectly legitimate not to have affiliates working for you. Just because other paysites are doing it, does not mean it's a good model for every paysite.

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Because we are very very secure at the top of OUR niche. However, we would like a bit further spread into the mainstream.

Furthermore, it has now come to a pass where people will not exchange links with a pay site - nor will they review a paysite - nor will they even SELL you banner space without an affiliate program.

So, you could say we were forced to do it.

That said, the review sites (Banana Guide, Gay Demon, Banana Links etc) do really really well by us, and a couple of our affiliates do great by using our content the way I would be using it if I had the time!

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Originally Posted by Carrie

(Actually they should be "closed" from the get-go and develop their own traffic sources, but that's another thread. Becky's post on the future of ARS and her focus on developing internal traffic was quite eye-opening. Could be we'll see ARS making a move like this sometime in the next year or two?)

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ARS won't be going to private only, kicking out thousands of affiliates ever. That isn't the business model for that product at all. After all, ARS has led the way in offering more and more to affiliates over the years, first with $35 payouts, first with tons of niche sites, first with bonus payout days, first with rewards, first with BYOT, etc, etc. I do provide all of these still, and more, because I have to stay competitive in the affiliate market. As I said before, ARS is nearly 100% reliant on webmaster traffic and always has been. But, it's getting to the point where offering all of these tools required to get the attention of new affiliates is not working to attract new affiliates, or even retain current affiliates. That is why I have to consider my own internal promotions of my sites to balance this out. That definitely does not mean that I will be getting rid of affiliates. Just adding my own layer of traffic so that affiliate traffic/signup waves of activity don't adversely affect my bottom line.

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Originally Posted by tigermom

My advice to program owners would be this. Get real good paysites, something unique, something exclusive, something that actually converts well. Get good ratios. Promote your sites with no affiliates to begin with, polish your tours and get good convertions and good retention. Then, when you know you have a good product, and only then, start bringing in affilaites, slowly and gradually. Don't spoon feed them anything. Take serious affiliates, ones that know how to build their own sites, write their own blogs, create their own galleries, and lo and behold, maybe even create their own banners! The point should be to get affiliates joining you because -
1. Your site retains and converts.
2. You're honest and don't shave.

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It seems as if you are reading my business plans with this post :) I do plan on opening up a program, and it will be open only to those that can pass strict acceptance criteria. I'm doing this because I plan on investing a lot of time and money on development of the sites. I don't want to offer all the tools that are required to get the attention of affiliates. I don't want to lower the value of my content, which in turn will lower the overall income of my content to both me and my affiliates. The sites are going to be tested extensively with my own traffic before I ever let an affiliate send traffic to it. That way I know they are going to retain and convert and are worth the affiliates time and efforts to promote. And with strict acceptance criteria, I know that the affiliates that are sending traffic will do so because they believe in the product, because they understand it and will know how to promote it. It's definitely a win-win situation for us both.

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Originally Posted by shaun

Ok - here is the bottom line for me.

I do not want to run an affiliate program. I want to run a pay site. I want to focus on developing brilliant content, on hiring the hottest models, on being at the top of google in my niche (I am, by the way....)

If I want to give away 50% of a sale to an affiliate, I would like them to be doing the work to make the sale. Sure, I will give them some content they can use - they can raid my cookie jar for movie clips and pictures, and I will give them banners and stuff...

But - why would an affiliate WANT me to dilute my time and concentration away from running my SITE???? It is the SITE that they are selling! If I am spending oodles of time building FHG's, free sites, new tours, etc... well - heck, I can list em on green guy myself! If I build galleries, I can submit em myself! It takes me HOURS to create a gallery, but only minutes to submit it!

The idea behind affiliate marketing, behind franchising is this: I give you a terrific product to sell. It is YOUR job to sell it. EVERY MINUTE and EVERY DOLLAR I spend on helping you learn to sell the product is a minute and dollar that isn't being spent on giving YOU a great product.

I KNOW how much marketing I do. I know how much money my marketing makes. So, if someone wants to resell my product, work regular office type hours, and to be serious about it - I would venture a guess that he or she could make a decent living - even if my sites were the ONLY product they were selling!

So - WHY should an affilate - a good affiliate who KNOWS how to work in this industry - even WANT me to spend that much time running an affiliate program rather than running a site? It is in every good affiliates best interest that I do what I do best - making a gret site, and in thier best interest to do THEIR job - letting everyone know about my great site and why they should join!

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The reason why many would expect you to do all of that for them, rather than pay attention to your site, is because they (those particular affiliates) see themselves as the end user. They see themselves as the consumer you're after. They see themselves as the people to be marketed to and won over.

They don't care about the customers. They don't see the process as ever even getting that far.

That's why they'll gladly send people to a misleading site with misleading tours and upsells and cross sells and popups and loads of consoles and content that's not updated in exchange for a big chunk of PPS money.

Fortunately, there are many affiliates who do recognize the value of the customers in the equation from whom all money that floats around in this industry and between webmasters comes. They want the sites they promote to be fair, honest, of high quality, and so on because they realize that sending their traffic to good sites reflects upon them and benefits them in the long run. They have no desire to alienate their own surfers.

It's the affiliates that think sponsor programs exist solely for the affiliates sake and fail to even acknowledge the consumers in all of this that are the problem, in tandem with the sponsor programs that care about nothing more than appealing to affiliates and are not the least bit concerned with surfers or the quality of their own sites.