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And if I remember correctly, when COPPA was enacted, somebody pointed out that Titanic (which was big at the time) would be illegal under COPPA... as well as some of those teen movies ("Private Lessons" comes to mind...)Quote:
Originally Posted by XXXWriterDude
Would you say they have had the time needed to correct this issue? As it's STILL hosted with them.Quote:
Originally Posted by Squirt
Hi Lee - and everyone else....
Ok - let me chime in here first with this: my stepfather was a *********, with an unhealthy interest in little girls. Now, to my knowledge, the internet did not exist when I was a child, an CP wasn't widely available - so I can pretty much guarentee that his notions of appropriate sexual behavior were completely uninfluenced by something he might have....
I say this to make it obvious that I might have a personal problem with those who might take it in thier heads to abuse little kids....
That said: isn't prosecuting someone for something they have written a bit like prosecuting them for a thought crime? I have an even bigger personal problem than that.
Not being a particularly talented writer, I don't write many of my fantasies down for public perusal. Now, most of my better fantasies would definately be publishable on red rose....
Now, I might dream of a large red pony.... and I might fantasize about a large red pony - heck - I might even WRITE about a large red pony. Would I ever actually sleep with a large red pony? I don't think so!
Some of my other fantasies might involve other acts that are illegal, obscene, or fattening - am I to be imprisoned for just commitng my thoughts to paper? If I write a rape fantasy story (and such thoughts do occur in many a person's head) - am I responsible for the very real crime of rape?
I think we must be vigilant in protecting what few rights remain to us under the constitution... even while protecting thoughts and writings that we consider horribly repugnant. While ALL of us agree that CP is vile - thoughts should not be punishable - only actions.
Furthermore - while the US Gov is out there punishing people for thier perverted thoughts, very real crimes are being committed every day by slavers, human traffickers, and sociopaths of all stripes - and this assault on free speech is a cheap and easy way to appease the wing-nuts of the US without actually DOING something about crimes committed against women and children each and every day.
I will never support the act of writing fiction that has a sole purpose of getting someone off and involves non consenting adults.
There are stories where underage is a small part of a bigger story with deep meaning that is meant to convey something valuable to the consumer, or public at large.
Why is it hard for some to realize the difference between a real literary work and a piece of cheap **** porn fiction meant to make someone cum fantasizing about babies getting fucked?
The world isn't black and white. The world is not politically correct and this movement in the porn industry that if you don't support this freedom of ********* expression you somehow don't belong in the industry just blows my mind. I'm not saying you personally feel this way... but a few seem to and it frustrates me.
You are right about so many other things that are important in our society and the administration using this to appease the wingnuts.. as they've used their attacks on legitimate porn as well. But if they are gonna spend time attacking porn, I'm glad it's against things involving non consenting adults and leaving the legitimate businesses out of the line of fire. My .000002 cents
Quote:
Originally Posted by shaun
Ok Squirt - neither you, nor I, nor anyone we know would write about someone with a baby. It's vile, disturbing - horrible. I agree with you there.
But where do we draw the line? Who gets to determine what is arguably a piece of important literature, and what is just a disgusting appeal to Pedophiles? Nabokov's Lolita was banned for quite some time, it is very disturbing - and quite likely caused many men to view 13 year old girls in a whole new way.
What about Nancy Friday's book "My Mothers Secret Garden" - where one contributor had a fantasy about having sex with a gorrilla? Another shared her fantasies about non-consensual kidnapping and rape, another about sex with the pool-boy. This was an important and iconic work examining female sexual fantasies..... even though many of those fantasies were about "non-consent"
The problem, as I see it is the "slippery slope" - the prosecution against Red Rose isnt solely about that one horrid story involving an infant, but also includes Watersports, Besitality, Dominance and Submission - and the wording itself opens the door to prosectution of the DISCUSSION of consensual sex acts that the religious right finds offensive.
This is prosecution of thoughts, not of actions..... and if successful it opens the door that not only opens porn to prosecution, but opens the door to political thoughts and writings being open to prosectution as well.... Once you establish that the discussion of a subject is prosecutable, then ALL objectionable discussion can become prosecutable.
And this is why you will see the ACLU involved. And why I will probably send a donation to them.
Well that's what was on the Red Rose site, amongst many other things. There was also a directory titled "toddler" devoted to toddler sex. The baby reference was one story involving a man changing a baby, getting turned on, and fingering the baby to get himself off.Quote:
Originally Posted by shaun
Here are googles results searching the red rose site with the keyword baby.
Here's the google for the site under the term toddler.
I understand your argument about a slippery slope. Did you know there are laws against what fantasy you can watch in a movie theatre? If you are below a certain age you can't watch R rated movies, and they are just fantasy. Certain people cannot buy certain video games that are fantasy. Certain people can't by adult music.
When we legislate fantasy access based on age, why can't we legislate fantasy content for it's actual content, when it involves, specifically, non consenting parties in a sexual act with no purpose in the story but to get the reader off?
We are in the midst of the cultural war and we have to take a stand somewhere. I will not stand beside people who create, specifically, this kind of content. In our business of sexual fantasy there is no place for children period, in reality, in the written word, cartoons, computer animation, etc. That's just my opinion. Not everyone can agree all the time, that's just the way it is.. no big deal :high:
Squirt, I think the point Shaun is trying to make is about about the erosion basic civil rights.
I remember a story you told us a while back about religious fanatics that tried to take your kid. If you didn't have those rights they would have busted up your family.
ap.
We don't have the right to say/write anything we want without repercussions, we never have, and we never will in a civilized society. People slander, people threaten, people defame, etc. and are held accountable, even in fiction. As far as obscenity, community standards have been judging obscenity for quite some time, this is nothing new, and to be honest, I don't think there's a community in America that will not judge this material obscene. What do you think?Quote:
Originally Posted by _ap_
And if I was creating or distributing this kind of material they would have been right to.Quote:
Originally Posted by _ap_
Again the prevailing argument from your side seems to lump this specific kind of **** fiction, made to solely get people off thinking of abusive acts, with all other kinds of free speech and literary works, when they are completely different. It's like saying homosexuals are the same as pedophiles and sexual abusers, it's simply not true.
Ahh according to the right wing religious loonies :wacko: all homosexuals are the same as pedophiles and pornographers are the cause of all sexual abusers!!!@*$!
9/10 times application of obscenity law is unconstitutional. Problem with red rose is that it will pass a miller test and could introduce some freekin scarry case law.
Ok squirt I'll spell it out for you. Religious folk have taken over your white house and are enforcing their faith on the people while at the same time stomping all over basic consistutional rights. Those rights include freedom of religion, speech, assembly, and press; access to a jury; to bear arms, not to have their shit searched without a warrant, all that good stuff.
Say all you like, but actions speak louder than words and you moved here to escape those religious nuts so nyeerr :P
No judge or jury on the planet would allow those stories to pass The Miller Test, its just not going to happen.Quote:
Originally Posted by _ap_
Regards,
Lee
Yeah lets hope so.
2/3 will be easy to get over the line (prurient interest & patently offensive - yep yep), no 'litereary or scientific value' could get interesting.
I can't help but think of one of the artists that Van Gogh imitated, can't remember his name but he was short, had brittle bones and could barely walk so he hated the world and hung out with strippers and hookers alot :huh:
It came out in his work, some of which was seen as obscene, although nowdays he recognised as someone Van Gogh admired and also the creator of many of the graphic design techniques still used today.
There is a message in that, not sure what it is. Something about offensive art.
Hahaha I just realised the smilie for bush is :bush:
ap.
It was Toulouse-Lautrec. He died from syphilis.
See, I think rape fantasies can be hot, so long as they are written from the point of view of the supposed victim, and they are only written for the purpose of somebody exploring their fascination with such a thing. As disturbing as it may be, there are a lot of rape fantasies out there written by both women and men who claim to be turned on by the idea of being taken by force.Quote:
Originally Posted by Squirt
If you are the person writing the story, then you are in essence consenting to the fantasy, but not the crime. Writing a rape story in which you are the victim isn't giving consent for it to happen in real life. The difference is that you are in control of your fantasies. That's why fantasies are healthy for us. They allow us to live out certain acts in our minds instead of giving in to them in our real lives.
I would have a problem with a rape/non-consensual story in which it was written from the POV of the attacker, who was getting off on raping the person. But if it's written from the POV of the "victim," it's a different story for me.
Why you pretend to have any clue of all the reasons I moved to Australia are beyond me. I've never met you.Quote:
Originally Posted by _ap_
I've lived in Australia 3 years now.. you peg America as being taken over by religious fanatics, yet my son going to public school here in Oz has mandatory religion class once a week. Your prime minister had a photo session with Bush in church when he visited America a couple months ago and attented Sunday services with Bush, splashed all over the papers and TV here in Oz as Americas whipping boy. I have bible thumpers knocking on my door once every 3-4months.. something I experienced once living in the states. I had to move one of my office locations because the building was owned by a minister who didn't like the fact I was doing legitimate business he didn't morally agree with.
Can you film porn in Melbourne legally?
I find it ironic, as an Australian, you are trying to decide what you think is right for the American people and American policy and how much our country is going down the drain. Try looking honestly at your own country and the problems your people face here, but you wont do that as it's easier to focus on the issues of others instead of your own. :thumbsup:
Yeah I can see where you're coming from and that's on the absolute fringe for me. I've actually seen one or two videos along that line that were hot and didn't involve extreme degradation. For me, when it's involving men only, or women only, it's different then the same genre involving men vs woman.Quote:
Originally Posted by XXXWriterDude
Like I said before... there is no place for children in adult erotica. It seems a simple line when dealing with this specific genre but we get these yahoos that want to lump **** jack off porn with great literary pieces... they have absolutely no boundaries, anything goes for them, it's really unfortunate.