2257 w/regard to Foreign ID's

We all saw the DOJ's original proposal on the new 2257 last year, and were crazy over the issue of which foreign ID's were acceptable. In the rebuttal comments to the public comment period, the DOJ responded that any Government issue ID would suffice.

HOWEVER, in the AVN article Here, published just after the Deal hearing between the FSC and DOJ, i was startled to see this paragraph....

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Originally Posted by AVN Article

As an example, he cited the regulations’ requirement that foreign actors must provide a U.S.-issued document proving their age for all content manufactured between 1995 and now. The government already has agreed, in documents submitted thus far, that the requirement is a bit much. Instead, it will require U.S.-issued documentation for foreign actors only from June 23, 2005, forward.

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Speaking of Paul Cambria's comments when asked about what he felt had been accomplished.

I was alarmed! I thought this issue was already cleared up by the DOJ responses to the public commentary.

I sent an email to the author of the article by email and asked his take on this and his reply is..

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Originally Posted by M J McMahon

Apparently the gov't has decided to accept Visas, passports, etc., issued by foreign governments as proof of age for images created by U.S. companies prior to June 23, 2005. After that date, all images created by U.S. companies must be accompanied by a U.S.-issued
age-verification document (such as a "green card).

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According to this comment, the DOJ and FSC agreed to use this as the basis going forward for the standard of acceptance for foreign ID's.

If this is true, it really puts a bind on foreign producers.....

Yeah, this will really suck, cause a LOT of producers wont think it worthwihile, or even possible to get a US id for a model who lives say in England. Can you even imagine the expanse to get one, you would basically have to fly the model to the US , get a phot ID card then fly him home, if the producer isnt even baised in the US then that effectivly makes it totally cost prohibative for a regular photo shoot wheer they may only sell 30 - 50 copies

I agree! Here in South Florida were I am based out of we get many foreign guys here visiting for a few months. They come from all parts of Europe and South America and its a pitty we will not be able to use them anymore! Its not worth it for them to get an American ID.

I feel sorry for production companies like Lucas, Chi-Chi, Bjorn and many of the sites and production companies that rely on Foreign talent.

Keep in mind...support the FSC and vote in the election...perhaps if the adminstration changes and the FSC continues to fight these rules will change again.

I also like to know...why hasn't the mass media pick up this story? Are people in this country more worried about "Tom Cruise" instead of thier Freedom and the rights they have in this country???

Just my two cents worth........

Yeah I am surprised the mass media has not picked up on this either...could be that it's no big deal to them cause it's just porn.....

who knows....it's not sexy enough to sell papers?

I know they monitor things like this... perhaps noone has really explained
to them the implications?

I gues its the old saying "everyone read/watches porn , but no one wants to openly support it"

I've read two dissenting opinions on the need for a US ID (passport, drivers license, state ID, or green card) for foreign models being photographed by US photographers. J.D. Obenberger wrote a lengthy article saying it was not required, while one of the attorneys at Weston Garrou, DeWitt and Walters wrote a dissenting opinion.

However, the AVN article, if accurately quoted, indicates that a US ID is definitely required for any content published after 6/23.

My understanding has also been that if, say, a Canadian producer photographs a Canadian model, and is the custodian of records for that photo set, then it is OK for a US webmaster to use that content provided a proper Canadian government-issued ID is used.

The part that's confusing is I don't remember reading about a difference in the language between what a secondary producer is required to keep in terms of ID, and what a primary is required to keep. So I'm confused about how a secondary can use a photo set containing a foreign model. What's the point of requiring the secondary to keep all the age-verification records if the justice department is saying that non-US IDs are not acceptable, but if the photo set comes from a foreign country, the IDs *are* acceptable? Either the ID is valid or it's not.

It sounds like in this case, they're attempting to use 2257 to control immigration, not to protect underage models from exploitation.

its odd that the US reconises a forign passport and driverslicence as ID for visitors to pretty much rent/ do most things in the US yet not as poof of age?

maybe its because it is hard to verify, at least a US issued DL or ID can be checked for authenticity

its probally again down to making us to all the work for them

I have a question, maybe it has been answered and I missed it. For the current Romanians we have working on cam (doing live shows and galleries) are we stilll in the clear with Romanian Issued Passports since we hired them well before 6/23? Or will we need to have US passports for them now, if we continue to have them working for us?

Can someone clear this up for me please :)

Frat_Ricky - i'd talk to a couple lawyers about this if i were you. my understanding from reading the new 2257 is that foreign i.d. isn't acceptable anymore. i have heard a couple dissenting opinions on this from lawyers, but i have heard more that feel non-u.s. i.d. is not acceptable unless you are not a u.s. producer.

btw, since attorneys disagree, there is no definitive answer right now. it will take court to clear this up, i suspect.

Thanks for the reply basschick. So until its set in stone from the courts, we will continue with the way things are ran. We are 2257 ready except this whole area lol.

If the statement made in AVN regarding the negotiations Cambria did with DoJ is accurate, then anything produced before 6/23 is OK, anything after 6/23 is definitely NOT ok.

So in other words, if you wanted to re-run a previously recorded live show with your foreign models, you could do so if it was recorded before 6/23, but you could most definitely not provide any new performances with said models after 6/23.

Given that it's a minimum 5 years per infringement and you've got more than one model and show daily, if I were you, i'd take the opposite approach and eliminate the foreign models until you hear it's ok to use them. Also, keep in mind that you have to keep a complete archived copy of every live show, with full cross-indexing and all.

Frat_Ricky - the way some things get set in stone by the courts is that someone is charged with a violation (and possibly arrested), and they go through court, possibly a couple times, but possibly for years. do you want to risk that person being you?

My friends Im danny from Allgayprovider.com
These toppin have give me a headache I only produce content from foreing countrys Like the caribbean asia and Europe never American content.

So what you guys think of all my customers that all ready have hundreds of sets made by me.

I used to have my bussiness register in the usa I just change the address to all my domains to a foreing country so I guess Im not force to do all these new crazy laws. what you think Im in a error or went my bussiness are register in foreing countrys not USA. Im out of these crazyness.?

basschick and boyfunk, thanks for the help. For now until its more clear we are going to temp remove them. Once its figured out we will bring them back, if we can. :)

We are talking foreign models photographed while IN the US correct? If the model is located in say Thailand, and the set was taken in Thailand by a photographer IN Thailand, we don't need a US ID for that guy or gal right, we'd just need their country's ID and model release to use the set?

Also, with the above example for instance, how are you all handling ID's that are in another country's language and not English?

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Originally Posted by Bec

Also, with the above example for instance, how are you all handling ID's that are in another country's language and not English?

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One of the guys I promote is going crazy trying to get Thai and Russian documents translated -- don't know if he's having any luck. :)

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Originally Posted by Bec

Also, with the above example for instance, how are you all handling ID's that are in another country's language and not English?

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I've been paying a fortune to have the god damn things translated by "certified translators". Talk about asinine!

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Originally Posted by JustMe

I've been paying a fortune to have the god damn things translated by "certified translators". Talk about asinine!

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Care to share some resources for foreign translators?

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Originally Posted by Bec

If the model is located in say Thailand, and the set was taken in Thailand by a photographer IN Thailand, we don't need a US ID for that guy or gal right, we'd just need their country's ID and model release to use the set?

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As i understand it, both the model AND the photographer/content producer need to be citizens of the same non-US country in order for a US webmaster to be able to use the content. How this has ANYTHING to do with protecting underage models, I have absolutely no idea.

that's what it actually says in the regs. and i still wasn't clear that a non-u.s. webmaster could use the content.

at some point, i surely hope this part gets defined for us. right now, it's total gibberish.

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Originally Posted by boyfunk

As i understand it, both the model AND the photographer/content producer need to be citizens of the same non-US country in order for a US webmaster to be able to use the content. How this has ANYTHING to do with protecting underage models, I have absolutely no idea.

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Originally Posted by Bec

We are talking foreign models photographed while IN the US correct? If the model is located in say Thailand, and the set was taken in Thailand by a photographer IN Thailand, we don't need a US ID for that guy or gal right, we'd just need their country's ID and model release to use the set?

Also, with the above example for instance, how are you all handling ID's that are in another country's language and not English?

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Bec that is crazy American websites will have to close their doors some one dint read the new laws as suposed to. I my self dont live in the usa but Im sending all webmasters any ID or model release missing and that should be ok.

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Originally Posted by euroxtreme

Bec that is crazy American websites will have to close their doors some one dint read the new laws as suposed to. I my self dont live in the usa but Im sending all webmasters any ID or model release missing and that should be ok.

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I have no clue what part of my comment you're refering to as crazy?

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Originally Posted by boyfunk

As i understand it, both the model AND the photographer/content producer need to be citizens of the same non-US country in order for a US webmaster to be able to use the content. How this has ANYTHING to do with protecting underage models, I have absolutely no idea.

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The Regs says "located" in the foreign country. "located" is not defined as meaning, citizen, resident, employed, or visiting.. this is the problem with the wording in this area..

I am not certain the correct view of this is that you have to be a citizen of a foreign country to use content from that country.

I think the wording on this was written to indicate that the producer has to be on location with the model, physically located where the model is, to verify the model, and the id..so the chain of custody of knowledge of the actual age of the model is intact and accurate.

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Originally Posted by tombarr

The Regs says "located" in the foreign country. "located" is not defined as meaning, citizen, resident, employed, or visiting.. this is the problem with the wording in this area..

I am not certain the correct view of this is that you have to be a citizen of a foreign country to use content from that country.

I think the wording on this was written to indicate that the producer has to be on location with the model, physically located where the model is, to verify the model, and the id..so the chain of custody of knowledge of the actual age of the model is intact and accurate.

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Well it would be much easier for all if that is in fact the interpretation, so I hope that during the discussions and injunctive process this gets clarified.

My problem then would be why it would be OK for a photographer to shoot a Canadian model in Kelowna, BC, 100 feet past the Canadian border crossing, while the same model with the same ID can't be shot in northern Washington on the US side of that same border crossing. Obviously the ID doesn't magically change when it's brought into the US, and the last I heard, US Immigrations had to be confident of someone's identity before allowing them into the US... so I really don't understand what the issue is.

Does anyone know if a *student* visa would be adequate ID, combined with an appropriate foreign government-issued ID? As I remember, the regulations specifically mentioned a green card (work visa), but once again, if the concern is proof of age and identity, a student visa is just as valid. But that would be way too rational and reasonable.

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Originally Posted by boyfunk

...... But that would be way too rational and reasonable.

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Chip I think you hit the nail on the head with this one. I doubt the DOJ was anywhere near considering that anything in this new reg needed to be either rational or reasonable to anyone but themselves....

IMO, A very typical government stand on most any law they write...