Revshare vs PPS and shaving

Hi all,

I'm a bit puzzled about a sponsor that I'm promoting quite heavily on my sites. A couple of weeks back I switched all of my codes from revshare to PPS. I was trying revshare because I thought it'd be nice to build up another sponsor with some good rebilling. But the rebilling wasn't happening, so I switched everything to PPS.

When I was on revshare I was converting 1/303 to 1/360, but now under PPS I'm converting 1/792. Another one of their sites I was converting 1/18 and now I'm converting 1/89 under PPS.

The banners are all in the same place, the only thing that's change is the code behind them. And they're in areas that are open to the public, so they're getting lots of traffic.

Shaving? And if so, what do I do about it? If you approach a sponsor and ask them if they're shaving, they'll deny it. Is asking usually enough to get them to cut the shave off on your account? Or does shaving not work on an individual basis like this?

Thoughts?
dzinerbear

Good post D-bear! I have had similar thoughts. Maybe it's time we ran our own paysites.

I'm thinking the same thing...It converts better with revshare.
My friend told me he got like 0:2000 with PPS but 1:400 with revshare.
With the same sponsor, I got 1:1000 with PPS and 1:400 with revshare.

Do the PPS links go to a site with more console than the revshare version?

If so, you are probably discovering what i mentioned in the other thread about consoles, what percentage of traffic is actually leaked through to a console instead of being able to join the site ;)

Regards,

Lee

great post!

I doubt if you would ever get the program to let you in on why....

Dzinerbear did you happen to check on the consoles from this site under PPS or Revshare side by side?

I agree with Lee, there are probably more console leaks in the PPS model. Got to pay for it somehow.

Nice theory, I hadn't thought of that, so it's good to see it in action. However, both revshare and PPS links pop consoles jammed with sponsors.

dzinerbear

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Originally Posted by Dzinerbear

Nice theory, I hadn't thought of that, so it's good to see it in action. However, both revshare and PPS links pop consoles jammed with sponsors.

dzinerbear

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Do the consoles on the revshare links have links to their OWN sites in a higher saturation rate than another sponsors?

Seriously, there are so many 'tricks' an affiliate program can use just on consoles alone that without knowing the site its going to be hard to say if thats the problem or whether its something on the tour itself.

For example, on a revshare site we own, we make sure to pop a console with 80% of the links crediting affiliates and 20% crediting only us whilst, on a PPS model, we'd pop a console with 20% going to the affiliate and 80% going to us :)

Regards,

Lee

Also, dont forget, as per my post the other day, even if the consoles do pop with affiliate credited links, the placement in the console chain itself will set the real 'value' of those links when using the (x minus 50%) rule, where X is the numbered console that pops.

Regards,

Lee

very good post you have there Dzinerbear!

The "BIG" affiliate programs that have a ton of sites, PPS or Revshare options have never been practical for me. I only send a few hundred hits a day and they are definitely geared toward thousands of hits per day. I am using only one of them now and am about to pull them entirely, simply because they play games wth my traffic and I don't appreciate it. Not to mention signup ratios of 1/2000 or worse.

Any affiliate program that uses consoles, offers ridiculous payouts and cookie cutter sites just raises too many red flags for me. Someone's getting rich off of them, but it usually isn't the person sending the traffic.

I guess the whole situation just really disappoints me in a way, but doesn't surprise me in another. I understand the economics of trying to finance a PPS program, but programs never tell you about all the fine print when you sign up to promote them.

"Oh yes, we'll pay you $30 per signup, even on trials." But they don't say, "But we're not going to be able to actually credit you with every single sale you send us. And we're even going to divert some of your traffic to our own interests." You know at least if they were upfront with what they're doing, I could make an informed decision about whether I wanted to play the game or not.

It's like TGP operators don't tell you, "Every third hit to your gallery will actually be diverted to something that might make me money."

And what's astonishing is the amount of time one has to spend deciphering bullshit in this business to get at something that even comes close to resembling the truth.

So now looking at my stats for this program, to date this month, I've actually made the same amounts of money on the revshare side as I did on PPS. So now armed with this new information, I'm thinking that had I been promoting revshare, I probably would have made the same or more money because I would have been credited with more of my traffic (not all because we can't make that assumption) but more of it. And if you consider that on the revshare side of things, if the program actually does any kind of retention, you'll get rebills, which we all know is easy money. If you're promoting PPS you're having to bring new surfers to the site every month, which after a while will get harder and harder.

The reason I switched from revshare to PPS in the first place was because monthlies weren't converting to rebills so well, so I figured, "Well I'll just take my PPS and be done with it." But now, even with crappy retention, I may have the possibility of making more money than on PPS.

Just when you think you have everything figured out ...

dzinerbear

I had deluded myself into believing that the percentage of sleazebags in this industry wasn't much different than in other industries.

I just don't understand why anyone in their right mind would do crap like this... or why anyone in their right mind would continue to send traffic to someone that did this. Whether you make money or not, do you really want to support a program that is intentionally trying to rip you off?

As far as I'm concerned, unless the program tells you up front and very clearly that they are going to redirect some of your traffic elsewhere, or only pay you on 20% of your traffic under some circumstances, they're being sleazy.

Maybe I'm just naive, but I believe in treating people fairly and with complete integrity, and I expect the same in return. There have to be plenty of sponsors out there that are completely up front and honest. Perhaps if all the affiliates would vote with their feet and abandon the sleazebags en masse, things would change. Or perhaps that's too much to ask for.

That is very strange I don't know why chaging over to a rev share would make your ratios go weird like that. The only thing I can think of is maybe the revshare has no trials or different priced trials and it converting differently than the pps.

Mark

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Originally Posted by boyfunk

why anyone in their right mind would continue to send traffic to someone that did this.

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Because its not about the shave, its about how much money you make at the end of the day.

A sponsor who shaves @ 5% could end up making you less than a sponsor that shaves you @ 20% :)

Regards,

Lee

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Lee

For example, on a revshare site we own, we make sure to pop a console with 80% of the links crediting affiliates and 20% crediting only us whilst, on a PPS model, we'd pop a console with 20% going to the affiliate and 80% going to us

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I think Lee was explaining how revshare traffic can convert for the affiliate easier than PPS because less of the traffic is diverted away from a legitimate signup. Since PPS can cost a site dearly if they can't retain, they have to get the money somewhere to pay for it, so they send traffic to other sites (shave) that they make money from. Why would any sponsor "pop a console" on a revshare program that didn't carry the affiliate link with it? Blows my mind.

It seems to be the big players that do that. I've already decided to dump my one PPS sponsor once I get my next check, god knows how long that will take at 1/2000 or worse.

Another way to look at it..

Sponsor A is as honest as they come and you send them 100 joins a month at $15.00 per for $1500.00.

Sponsor B is a scumbag who shaves you like crazy yu send what should be 100 joins but you lose 50% of them to the shave so you make 50 joins per month at $50.00 per or $2500.00

Which sponsor are you going to send your traffic to? The one that makes you $1500 and is honest or, the one that makes you $2500 a month and shaves?

I know which sponsor ill be using ;)

Regards,

Lee

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Originally Posted by MWCren

Why would any sponsor "pop a console" on a revshare program that didn't carry the affiliate link with it?

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There are actually a couple of legitimate reasons for doing that on the revshare model, the main one being 'testing' purposes, for example, Sponsor A has a 50% payout on their sites, they want to 'test' a new site before allowing their affiliates to promote it heavily, if that site doesnt convert on the traffic that the sponsor is being sent, they need to know about it and, work on the problem.

No point in launching a new paysite if your affiliates dont make any money from it.

Regards,

Lee

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Lee

Because its not about the shave, its about how much money you make at the end of the day.

A sponsor who shaves @ 5% could end up making you less than a sponsor that shaves you @ 20% :)

Regards,

Lee

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Well, I guess it depends on whether you value money or integrity more. Personally, there would be no contest at all. I'd go for the sponsor program that pays less but is honest with me over one that delivered more cash but lied to me about their program. But perhaps I'm an oddball.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Lee

There are actually a couple of legitimate reasons for doing that on the revshare model, the main one being 'testing' purposes, for example, Sponsor A has a 50% payout on their sites, they want to 'test' a new site before allowing their affiliates to promote it heavily, if that site doesnt convert on the traffic that the sponsor is being sent, they need to know about it and, work on the problem.

No point in launching a new paysite if your affiliates dont make any money from it.

Regards,

Lee

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Well, unless I'm missing something, there's no legitimate reason why Sponsor A couldn't pay said affiliate for the traffic that converted on the test site. Or get permission from the affiliate to experiment with the traffic sent. In my book, that would be the ethical way to handle such a situation.

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Originally Posted by boyfunk

Well, I guess it depends on whether you value money or integrity more. Personally, there would be no contest at all. I'd go for the sponsor program that pays less but is honest with me over one that delivered more cash but lied to me about their program. But perhaps I'm an oddball.

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I'm going to have to agree with you for sure.

Mark

Just because its possible to shave doesn't make it right. Tricks and Games get soooooo old. If sites were worth a shit, they wouldn't have to resort to tricks and games to make money. I will never join a PPS program again, period. Well, I might try Mark's PPS option, cuz I trust him now more than ever.

I once worked for a bank, and the running "joke" internally was -- Why do we charge so many fees for so many different things? because we can.

Its not right to do something simply because its possible.

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Originally Posted by Lee

Which sponsor are you going to send your traffic to? The one that makes you $1500 and is honest or, the one that makes you $2500 a month and shaves?

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Yes, but what happens when sponsor B decides you're making too much money and decides to jack the shave up to 75 or 80%.

I'd rather deal with honest people and know I'm getting everything I'm due.

This is the big problem with this business, and it's the a big part of the reason that we have everyone and his brother breathing down our throats - this business is populated by a lot scumbags who care nothing except for the almighty dollar.

And when I find a sponsor A, I'll work my ass of to promote them even more. Because I appreciate the honesty.

dzinerbear

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Lee

There are actually a couple of legitimate reasons for doing that on the revshare model, the main one being 'testing' purposes, for example, Sponsor A has a 50% payout on their sites, they want to 'test' a new site before allowing their affiliates to promote it heavily, if that site doesnt convert on the traffic that the sponsor is being sent, they need to know about it and, work on the problem.

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Why doesn't the sponsor ask me first if I mind they experiment with my traffic? You have no idea what my financial needs and obligations are, what if I absolutely need every dime that's coming in? And that's irrelevant anyway, I'm sending you traffic, you should pay me for everything I send you that generates a sale.

I mean a sponsor would be jumping all over my back if I were using their content to "test" out another program to see if I could make money at it. And if I were using a sponsors beautiful banners and sending the clicks somewhere else, I'm sure they wouldn't be too happy about it.

Seems to me if a sponsor treats a webmaster like crap, they'll just be getting screwed in the end by lots of webmasters. So if it's worth it to a sponsor to dick them around, I guess they might be get rich, but they'll be constantly looking for new webmasters to screw over.

dzinerbear

you know what a lot of bigger programs don't pay for? most non-u.s. traffic. unless things have changed, trafficcash didn't pay for most countries, nor do a lot of programs. sometimes it's in their terms if you dig deep...

several have told me it's because most signups are from a few countries, but my own paysite stats and the stats of programs i work with show EVERY country has signups.

i'd say at least 1 in 8 signups are from other countries if not more. some traffic sources can really jack it up so that 1 in 3 or 4 signups is non-u.s.

so this could be another reason for pps to be show less sales than revshare...

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Originally Posted by Lee

Another way to look at it..

Sponsor A is as honest as they come and you send them 100 joins a month at $15.00 per for $1500.00.

Sponsor B is a scumbag who shaves you like crazy yu send what should be 100 joins but you lose 50% of them to the shave so you make 50 joins per month at $50.00 per or $2500.00

Which sponsor are you going to send your traffic to? The one that makes you $1500 and is honest or, the one that makes you $2500 a month and shaves?

I know which sponsor ill be using ;)

Regards,

Lee

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this attitude towards theft is nauseating, and clearly a big reason shaving still exists. why should they stop stealing when people like you will allow them?