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the way i see it (tell me if i'm wrong), if your company is in europe (and you, too), your models are in europe, etc, and you're on a european server, you basically can poop on 2257, right? how about if all of the above, but you're on a US server - problems? or is 2257 still poopable?
fyi, i'm not talking kiddy porn - we're talking real man-porn with grown-ups (and the appropriate paperwork) - just without all the bush-ashcroft anal-retentive crapola.
Quote:
Originally Posted by cyber-stud
Talk to an attorney. I believe that there is some loophole that the U.S. is using to potentially prosecute companies overseas if they sell their product in the States.
Clive DeWitt or Greg Piccionelli (adult entertainment attorneys) or other resources are a good way to find out. Someone here might know the specifics, but I do know that Canadian companies like Maleflixxx were required to follow U.S. 2257 regs.
cyber-stud - do you plan to involve any affiliates? u.s. webmasters won't be able to work with a site that doesn't conform to 2257.
XXXWriterDude - you mean clyde dewitt? ;)
Haha! Yes, I knew that even! I've interviewed him a few times. Where the hell did Clive come from?Quote:
Originally Posted by basschick
Looks like I picked the wrong week to give up amphetamines. :)
it sure does! and i know the feeling...
looks like i've picked the wrong week to give up sniffing glue ;)
Quote:
Originally Posted by XXXWriterDude
Oops, now what. I'm european on an american server.
With no mention of 2257 whatsoever anywhere on the site.
- You're telling me FBI/CIA/FEMA is gonna come crashing through my door
and invite me to a camp on Cuba for "processing" :2ymca:
The major big thing with 2257 and if or not you require it is who is your processor.Quote:
Originally Posted by XXXWriterDude
The secondary thing is who do you sell to. I dump tons of footage on the american market under various pseudos names. They require copies off all your crap for legal purposes.
As for the "Loophole."
I was contacted 2 weeks ago and told that my products did not meet with community standards of of Augusta Georogia and that they intended to persue crimnal action against me. (I shipped several boxes of videos to a man that in turn sold them at a mark up.)
Of course when I recieved the letter I contacted my attorney. (Advocat in french) And took some serious investigation into it. Basically this is what he found.
1. I broke american laws by using the United states postal service.
2. Because several of my videos included such acts as double fistings, urine drinking and mixed BDSM with sex. My product was in violation of community standards.
However he does not take the prosecution seriously because.
1. They require a judgement or warrent for my arrest to have me forcebly sent to the United States. And they won't be able to obtain one because I only sell to private citizens and not distributors. And a simple bench warrent is not sufficient to have me extradited. (sp?)
2. I am not an american citizen and have operated within the confines of the laws of both my parent country and my adopted one. Under international laws that America has been in agreement with. I am required to maliciously with prejudice and intent to be actively seeking to circumvent another nations legal system for my own gains. (This is a bitch to prove if all your doing is manufacturing product and shipping it.)
3. Because I am not american I am only required to furnish reasonable doubt that by using the United States postal service I was not aware of the legal constraints of using them to ship profane material. (Since it is not ilegal to ship my crap in france via the post. It would be reasonable for me to assume the same of the U.S. Futhermore the United States Postal Inspector must serve me with a written notice detailing the law I am infringing and a cease and dessist. (sp?) --- After this if I continue they have a case against me and can demand removal proceedings for me.)
Basically,
It's not a biggie unless you are an american. Then you could come under the jurisdiction of the sexual tourism laws and conspiracy laws.
IE: if you visit one country where age of consent is 10 and bang 10 year old hookers you can be charged in the U.S. upon return.
Or.
Under international law if you use one country's laws to circumvent the laws of another you have commited an offense of conspiracy.
All in all.
As long as you aren't american and keep your keep to the laws of your country and your processor isn't american based. Fuck it, you're in the clear.
*sigh*Quote:
Originally Posted by Soonnow
Why even bother being on a U.S. server with no 2257?
oh this again ... the U.S. government does not have the jurisdiction to enforce their laws outside of the U.S. They cannot not even ask my local police to come to my place of business and check ID.
However, rather than "poop" on the laws as you say. I think it's easier to say that you're compliant. Do what everyone else is doing on their sites and play the game, but just know that no DOJ suits will be banging on your door to check anything.
Having said all of this, the way the DOJ could enforce this law internationally is by making it illegal for U.S. sites and billing companies to do business with anyone that isn't compliant.
But I suspect we're looking at some backtracking on this whole 2257 issue as Hollywood and the big studios are starting to say, "What the fuck?"
Michael
I don't mean to be rude but it's very late in the game to be playing the "my business is invinsible because I'm overseas" card. It's been proven so many times now that you people should have learned.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dzinerbear
Bimboy uses CCBill EU .. he's taking subscriptions in American dollars. All USD transactions go through Chase Manhattan in New York. If you don't think the American government can't fuck with your business if they want to then feel free to think that, but you're wrong. They've done it before, and are doing it now.
Please don't put words in my mouth, I didn't use the word invisible.
And didn't I already pretty much already cover the billing issue, or can't you read? I SAID, "Having said all of this, the way the DOJ could enforce this law internationally is by making it illegal for U.S. sites and billing companies to do business with anyone that isn't compliant."
Michael
If you need help moving to an offshore hosting solution hit me up on sales@chilihost.com - and no, we are not a USA based company so the DOJ will not be visiting us demanding we pull the plug on your server either!Quote:
Originally Posted by Soonnow
As outlined in the 2257 regs, the major big thing with 2257 is where your business is located. If you are based out of the EU plus using an EU processor plus EU hosting, you don't need to comply with US laws. As a site owner you are not responsible for US-based surfers for visiting your site. If the government is that gung-ho on stopping this, they can - after all they control all major USA DNS servers plus USA-international gateways still. Oh, I totally agree with that you are saying in the rest of your post about not being american, the same with Michael's post above.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hamilton Steele
cheers,
Luke
Oh what the hell since I am into quoting today...
First off, unless you are sitting in jail, it is not too late. Bloody hell, the law isn't even decided yet thanks to the FSC injunction...how can you possibly say its too late????Quote:
Originally Posted by Squirt
Second, if Bimboy uses CCBillEU he has to abide by CCBillEU's rules, not USA's rules. Do you think that Cubans selling cigars for USD have to abide by US rules. Hell, 99.95% of all currency in Panama is US currency (they mint their own coins here so occasionally you do get a balboa or two in the mix), but Panama is definately not abiding by USA's rules...even if you do bank through a local branch of a US-based bank like citibank. And just because CCBillEU is pushing currency thru ChaseManhatten, there is absolutely no way you, as an EU client, can be responsible for their international money movements.
cheers,
Luke
Is there really a RIGHT week to give up amphetamines XXXWriterDude?Quote:
Originally Posted by XXXWriterDude
Hell no!Quote:
Originally Posted by JoshTucker
Kick hugs; embrace drugs!
Todays lesson: every body is a junkie (addicted to something). The only important item to remember is how well they fit in to society and function, while on their drugs of choice!
I try not to discriminate, so I've decided to go with all of the above! :pie:
I didn't say it's "too late"Quote:
Originally Posted by Chilihost
I said "I don't mean to be rude but it's very late in the game to be playing the "my business is invincible because I'm overseas" card."
CCBILL EU ACCEPTABLE USE POLICYQuote:
Originally Posted by Chilihost
J. Reproduction or transmission of any material in violation of any local, state, U.S., or international law or regulation is prohibited. CCBill EU makes every attempt in such cases to work with both U.S. and foreign law enforcement agencies to provide information about the providers and purchasers of such material. This includes the posting or display of any image or wording instructing users how to make or perform devices or situations that may violate any state, federal, or international law.
K. Websites must comply with the 18 U.S.C. 2257. Clients must determine their legal responsibility to and method of complying with 18 U.S.C. 2257 where required to do so.
Compliance with Rules of Other Networks
Any access to other networks connected to CCBill EU’s Internet service must comply with the rules for that network as well as with CCBill EU’s rules.
I never said webmasters are responsible for CCBillEU's money movements.Quote:
Originally Posted by Chilihost
I said that Chase Manhattan controls all USD transactions, specifically wire transfers. No matter where you are in the world, if your wire transfer comes in USD, it has to go through Chase Manhattan as the intermediary bank, and they work very closely with the federal government and the "war on terror".
So at the end of the day if the feds wanted to put the squeeze on sites that don't comply with 2257 they put a list of the sites together, give it to the billing companies, and have them close the accounts, or restrict payment going out in USD through Chase Manhattan. They've already done this in money laundering cases involving porn sites.
Now I don't think it's right that the U.S. has this kind of control. I think it's wrong, but this is our reality at this point in time. And the sky isn't falling. Doomsday isn't near. People just need to do the right thing, educate themselves and examine their liability with an attorney. If you don't then you're putting yourself, and your business, in jeopardy.
I used to have porn news emailed to me... my keyword was "porn" and every day at least 10 new stories emailed to me regard CP ( until I narrowed my search to porn -child ) Every day the U.S. has busted someone in some foreign country for CP through their money transactions, network tracing, etc. What you do is traceable and if you don't think foreign governments don't work with the feds, your wrong.
There is no point in discussing this any further with you as you think you are an expert but you are not.
As for your other remarks - how dare you publicly slander my company. I am stepping in as moderator of this board and removing your post.
I am not an expert on anything.Quote:
Originally Posted by Chilihost
I cut and pasted CCBillEU's terms of service, with a link to their site. You were wrong, people using CCBillEU have to abide by 2257.. who cares?
You've deleted one of my posts on GWW, if you continue to delete my posts on GWW I will take this beyond this board where you will not have the ability to censor what I say. I am bringing up questions and facts. That's not slander. Why are you so quick to delete a post asking you questions about your business and the sites you're hosting? What is so threatening about that?Quote:
Originally Posted by Chilihost
Your Australian Pty Ltd company is legally bound by australian laws which forbid hosting such sites.. is that correct?
I don't have anything against you, or your business, but you deleting my post about you hosting those kinds of sites is bringing up red flags at this point.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chilihost
Normally I wouldn't step in to a fight between other people, but deleting posts is a big deal on any board, and such actions can raise a lot of red flags to the participants who are part of the community. Who wants to post on a board where the moderators are quick to censor?
For the record, I didn't see where Squirt slandered your company at all, Chili. Slander is only slander when something malicious is said about you in public. I didn't see anything malicious in Squirt's cut-and-paste of your site's rules. He was simply using them as an example to make a point. Just because you don't agree with the point doesn't mean that he was slandering you.
If you're going to be a moderator, you should be a fair and calm one, and not be so reactionary. Nobody likes a dictator.
Just my $.02.
To come back to the beginnig, Yes, if you are running your biz in Europe (even if you are american, as nobody can blame you if you are working for as an US for an european company :) think about this) you do not have to care about the usc2257 as this is an US Law and not an european. And luckely the US Law will not count anything here in Europe.
how can an american that hosts in the US and promotes US sponosors - own a TGP site without getting into trouble with 2257?
webmasters are submitting 30 galleries a day to him, they should also be faxing him 2257 documents ?! that is not going to happen.
I don't see a way around it, do you? :bomb: :boo:
guys, lets try to stay on topic, this is important, it's a very big thing for most of us.
lets say "joe" is an american citizen that hosts in the US (host is US based) and promotes US sponsors and lets say "joe" owns a TGP - and I really mean a thumbnail gallery page, with thumbs, let's say they are 120x80 images submitted to him by gallery submitters.
how can he comply to 2257?
webmasters are submitting 30 galleries a day to him, they should also be faxing him 2257 documents ?! that is not going to happen.
I don't see a way around it, do you? :bomb: :boo:
oops, sorry for double posting, I didn't see the first post was submitted.... :hmmph: :dunce: :(
in my second post I really phrased it the way I wanted it, please ignore the first
I live in europe, and the 2257 don´t bother us at all. We don´t have the rules like US have... Happy that I am not living in US:-)
ofcourse we use legal content etc. but the 2257 at each tgp would have killed my bank account, in lawyer bills etc. blaaaaa
I really feel sorry for you guys that lives in US with such a fucked up goverment....:-(
Move your asses out of the corrupt country:-)
If I was a big player in adult, and did live in US, I would have moved my ass for a long time ago. !!!
bye from now...
Taz
This is an excerpt from a story that I wrote on 2257 preparations a few months back. It talks chiefly about Canada, but I would imagine that it might apply to any non-U.S. terrirory:
Quote:
Tony Rios, Chief Technical Officer for Chi Chi LaRue’s affiliate site ChiChiClicks.com, says, “We will be compliant in all regards except for the secondary producer rule. Our attorney has advised us against sending out our models’ IDs to ‘secondary producers.’ And, frankly, we agree. It’s a violation of privacy.”
That was the same tune being sung by Sweet Productions, Inc., the production company behind the Sweet Entertainment Group, home of affiliate program SweetMoney.com, when they issued a statement saying that they would not be releasing model information. “Sweet Entertainment Group intends to honor its commitment to its adult entertainment models to respect and be vigilant in the protection of their right to privacy,” the statement read. The Canadian-based company noted that it falls under the jurisdiction of British Columbia’s Personal Information Protection Act, which, they stressed, maintains “there are certain rights that adult entertainment performers have under that Act and certain obligations that SEG has pursuant to that Act as well.”
Conversely, Montreal-based live video chat site 2much.com released a statement earlier today saying that they, “with great reluctance,” had adjusted its LiveCamNetwork 1.9 platform to comply with the revisions, with President Mark Prince offering, “We say ‘with great reluctance’ because this version of the regulations is obviously meant to harass and annoy the adult industry rather than ferret out child pornography.”
The Canadian issue raises a bit of confusion, as Canadian privacy laws are extremely strict and prevent information such as home addressed from being given out, which stands in striking contrast to 2257, which could now make it a federal offense to not release the same information on American shores. “Certainly with us, it’s a big concern,” says Eric Johnson, President of Toronto-based Maleflixxx.net. “I still can’t believe that privacy laws in the United States aren’t somehow governing this sort of disclosure information. Personally I’m concerned about having a responsibility for having and storing this information, because it’s people’s private information. In Canada, this kind of legislation wouldn’t stand because the privacy legislation would supercede it.” Still, Johnson concedes that, just because his company is not based on American shores, that does not mean he is off scott-free. “The bottom line is, 2557 applies to anyone doing business in the United States, so it’s our intention to comply with the legislation, and I think that any company in Canada should,” he says. “Regardless of the fact that our headquarters are in Toronto, the fact that we do business in the United States [means] that we’re obligated to follow the rules of 2257.”
Again, you may want to talk to an adult entertainment attorney in order to get proper advisement on how to deal with the laws. Even if you do not live in the U.S., doing business with U.S. Web surfers may affect how you do business.
Well, I will follow the US Laws when you as an US citizen will start to follow the laws for surfers in Germany, India, Agypt, Singapure etc. so, move on!Quote:
Originally Posted by XXXWriterDude
Yeah, but you forget what an arrogant country America is. We like to throw our weight all around the world, or had you forgotten??? :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Servhot
Man I really hate 2257 and all of the stuff it involves but bottom line is this.
If you produce material and want any US webmaster to promote it, you need to be able to provide THEM with the proper 2257 info. It really is that simple. If you don't want the largest porn buyers to have access from local webmasters, hey, then don't comply.
Secondly, if you are a US Citizen, doesn't matter where you are, where your server is, where you live even. You pay taxes to Uncle Sam, are a citizen of that country then YOU are therefore BOUND by it's laws as well as the country you might reside, work, or host in.
Would the US government come after you if you live abroad? Who knows, but the thing is, if you do go back to the States, you could be fitted out for an orange jumpsuit.. so again, compliance would make sense.
anyhow, my 2 cents and not meant as legal advise either, me no lawyer, i leave that for guys like Chad.
Ian:coffee:
Michael,Quote:
Originally Posted by Dzinerbear
I think you are correct. I have another friend up there in your fair city and he tells me that he has checked with his attorney and has been told that as long as his servers are in Canada their is basically nothing that the DOJ can do as far as enforecment. The AMERICAN Department of Justice, in this type of situation, only has authority over companies that are based in America.
All of that being said; however, he is still posting the appropriate 2257 notification on his websites and does maintain the proper model releases but he will never have to worry about being raided.
And, it will sure be interesting to see what level of involvement the big studios in Hollywood will have. I thought it was a hoot that all of a sudden they awoke and thought..."oh shit, that applies to us".
Bill
You are correct!Quote:
Originally Posted by gaystoryman
Hosting companies, billing companies, affiliates, content producers.. they all have something to gain by saying you'll be ok, no problem.
Talk to your adult industry attorney and get the facts. I hate seeing so much misinformation being spread on these boards about what is legal, and not. If you would just follow industry news you'd read the stories of American webmasters who have their whole operation overseas, and they're getting busted, not for 2257, but for other American law offences.
Even people saying "if you use CCBill EU you don't need to follow 2257"..... people are so quick to fire off BS on boards without researching.
It took me 30 seconds to google CCBillEU 2257 and see the CCBillEU TOS stating you have to follow 2257.
Then of course after you state the facts.. those who spread the misinformation are eerily silent.
People need to spend a couple hundred bucks getting an adult entertainment attorneys advice. Some idiot on a board wont be held accountable if they misinform you.
Go with the flow, enjoy a hassle free life! Until they really fxxk you up then stand firm, seek reparation. They'll be banning kissing in public places next!
or...
go with the flow, have all your sites taken down and lose your business.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gayboys4fun
So War is a necessary evil?