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i'm writing descriptions for a set of handjob videos, and i just got to one that stands out because the room echoes like crazy and the girl is taking what she thinks are deep, sexy breaths. unfortunately because of the mic and the echo, it makes her sound like darth vader, which ruins the video.
how much does sound quality affect videos for you?
I mute the audio when I watch porn. I hate listening to other people having sex.
I am the exact opposite. I am very "auditory" and the sounds can potentially greatly enhance a movie. These can be sex sounds and talking or music. Why watch a porn without sound? This would be like eating dinner with a clothespin clamping your nose shut.
Movies that have a musical accompanyment that helps drive the video always gets additional mention and gives me even more complimentary things to regard about the movie.
Unfortunately I see too many movies that have near nothing happening on the audio channel. I think this really helps make for a movie that will be forgotten about five minutes after leaving the screen.
Steve
But, in 'porn' isnt that what we want the viewer to do?Quote:
Originally Posted by desslock
I mean, we want them to buy the next movie featuring that hot guy they like, not keep watching the same one over and over again.
There should be 'some' auditory stimulation in movies but at the same time, only the minimum amount required like a sound track or just the 'sounds' of the guys going at it.
Regards,
Lee
Well there is no "correct way" vs. "incorrect way" to make a movie. And I would also say that I completely disagree with that entire statement.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lee
I will suggest that people who proceed to create films like that... ones with *minimally sufficient* qualities... you will basically be making something interchangable, and that looks like everything else. I would suggest as well that such projects will create minimal returns.
For comparative purposes let's look at Horror Movies. There are companies that stamp out inexpensive, very forgettable movies... and there are people who make a little extra effort for their productions. Would you say that Clive Barker flicks not only going to entertain viewers more and earn more money?
Or David Cronenberg? Compare that --- noone may not know what I'm taking about here --- like those really cheap American International Pictures horror flicks in the 1970... like Tales From the Crypt with Joan Collins back in the early 70s.
And you don't need a lot of money either. Using the horror genre - John Waters and John Carpenter made early movies on piggybank budgets.... and people still seek out to rent and watch Polyester or Halloween after all these years.
All I am saying is that producers can take a shaker of Accent spice and shake it over their movie by just doing a few little extras, and it would turn it from something that looks like everything else, to something that would generate some buzz.
Steve
Steve,
I hear what you are saying and, to some extent i agree with you but, on the flip side of the coin, people will always be buying porn whether we go 'artistic' with the shoots or not - nobody buys porn for the 'artistic quality' of the movie, they buy it because the model is hot and they want to shoot their loads.
To put this in to some perspective for those who may not know a lot about the production side of things, when all is said and done, for around $4-6k broken down into the shoot, the editing and the dvd duplication / packaging, you can get around 2-3000 DVDs produced.
With an average retail price, for a REALLY low quality end product, you are looking at about what? $20 minimum for a surfer to buy a DVD?
Playing the numbers game, for various amounts of movie sales at $20.
If the producer sells X amount of DVD's they make X amount of money:
100 = $2000
200 = $4000
300 = $6000
400 = $12000
500 = $10000
1000 = $20000
1500 = $30000
2000 = $40000
2500 = $50000
3000 = $60000
So, in other words, to break even, they only have to sell 200-300 copies of their DVD in stores and, lets be honest, any distributor worth their salt could push those sorts of figures within a 3 month period.
But back to my initial statements, with producers only needing to sell 200 copies of a movie before at least breaking even, why put additional extra work in to it if its not required?
I realize customer loyalty comes in to play by adding the extra work but, at the end of the day, if you are selling your product based on customer loyalty, you are in the wrong business and, yes, a good product will sell more but, it ultimately comes down to a numbers game for many producers, especially the pro-am ones who cant afford to throw tens of thousands of dollars on a production instead, throwing some money in to marketing once you have your product ready is going to pay of a lot more for them.
Anyway as i say just throwing some business info around in this topic of discussion which may explain why a lot of people choose cheesy music or no audio at all in their movies.
Regards,
Lee
okay, let's talk rebills here. really boring porn, porn with music that is jarring or ruins the sexual vibe of the movie - that isn't going to cause a lot of rebills. i've seen videos with classical music (because it's free to use) that were AWFUL for the scenes it played over. i also recently saw a site with exclusive masturbation scenes with sort of fast plinky piano. it almost made them seem like sped-up silent movies, and WOW - was it ever not stroking masterial.
and maybe it doesn't take much to break even when making a movie, but if you make a name for yourself with a few extra touches and music that sets the scene, you can make MORE money from the great reviews and from word of mouth.
Patti,Quote:
Originally Posted by basschick
Rebills, are only important to sites that use the revshare business model and a lot of the sites that use the type of movies you are describing are using the PPS business model, its not just these types of movies either, its the same plugins that a surfer can find in pretty much any other site they visit, its the same image sets and even models being shot 'exclusively' across a range of sites, on one site the 'lead role' is a top in to cute twinks, the next his passion is bottoming for rough guys.
Lets not forget that on the PPS business model, most site operators dont care about rebills, its traffic numbers game, they make their money from the upsells inside the members area if a surfer actually hits the join page and signs up or, from console sales to another sponsor. The more traffic they get, the more money they make elsewhere.
Most revshare sites *I* have seen use almost the exact same kind of content that could find on any PPS sites members area but, its not only arranged better, there is a LOT more of it. Couple that with the fact that most revshare sites actually host their own content and they arent chock-a-block full of plugins, thats what makes a customer rebill, its not the quality of content, its the quantity, the regular updates, the easy navigation - the personality of the site that makes a surfer rebill.
If it were purely the quality of content that kept a customer rebilling, how do you explain why so many of the real micro-niche sites with content shot by one guy, working out of bedroom, on his digital camera which he bought from Best Buy and he edited himself rebill so much and, how come all these super sites that many of the PPS sponsors provide us with, all using exclusive high quality content, dont?
Quality of content, really isnt as important as we tend to think it is as a webmaster, again, it comes back to who are programs actually marketing themselves to? The webmaster or, the surfer? Which is more important to a sites success?
If a program is being marketed to 'webmasters' then yes, they are going to hard sell the 'quality' of their tours, their content, their support and all the other stuff that, in all honesty, really doesnt amount to much as far as the surfer is concerned.
The surfer wants to see guys fucking, hot guys, ugly guys, black guys, white guys, guys with one leg, guys with 2 heads, as long as the content matches what the surfer is looking for, they will join and, as long as the content is updated at regular intervals, the surfer will rebill.
I know you promote a few micro-niche sites that have updates once a month that the surfer still rebills on, why? Is it because the content is of an exceptional quality or, is it because the surfer is willing to wait to see whatever he (or she) gets their jollies off to because they cant find it anywhere else?
Right but, at the same time, lets say that it costs another $1000 for arguments sake to 'spice' up a movie with some good effects and audio. Over the course of 5 movies, thats an extra $5k the producer just spent to make what, the same amount of mney as they could have done on a low-budget flick. But, after 5 movies, if they put that additional $1k per movie aside, they have the funds to make another low-budget flick which can yield them another possible $60k economically, thats a no brainer decision to make. At least to me.Quote:
and maybe it doesn't take much to break even when making a movie, but if you make a name for yourself with a few extra touches and music that sets the scene, you can make MORE money from the great reviews and from word of mouth.
Amateur porn is a HUGE market place and, that doesnt have a very high quality so far as the content goes yet, amateur sites convert and retain like crazy. If surfers really were interested in the quality of their porn, why do these types of site do so well?
Regards,
Lee
Interesting argument... and I wonder..
is it the surfer who is saying they don't want quality? or the cookie cutter webmaster trying to hype the product?
if the surfer truly doesn't care about quality in any sense, just wants to shoot their load, why do films like those produced by citiboyz turn over so well? why are their huge pre-books for Bel Ami films? Is it that they produce the same low end stuff or high quality which gets people fantatical about their stuff?
Does the surfer go from one site to another simply because they are looking for a quick jack off or is it because what they have found so far simply doesn't satisfy them? Is it that the surfer is lowering the bar or the producer?
Personally I think quality will always win out in a long run. Yes if you add an extra 1k to the production cost if you saved that over 5 films you could produce another film... however if you add that extra 1k to a film, to make it more than the normal, you might also be able to better justify a higher resale price instead of the $20. I mean consider how they release a video today, then in 3 or 4 months release a director's cut where there is more added and boy has the price risen... so why can't a good video producer do the same here?
I think many companies lose track of the long term goal. They seek to reap the profits today and don't look beyond that. Eventually the well does run dry, but a good producing company like Citiboyz as an example, will weather a lot more ups & downs than the quick buck producer. And that means extended profits, higher retail pricing, and much higher profits... so I wonder, who really is setting this low standard?
just a thought
Ian
same, I turn the volume way down.Quote:
Originally Posted by Xstr8guy
One of the actors usually says something I dont like and it ruins it. Someone moaning the wrong way or theres a sex noise I dont like.
I like old 70s porn where theyd overlay the audio with many people moaning and sucking noises, I thought that was hot.
Maybe you can turn the heavy breathing into a positive. Id write a description about how shes a real moaner and gets into it. I think a lot of guys would be turned on by a girl who was so hot when you filmed it that she was breathing heavy.
nah - if you saw this video, you'd understand. darth vader or asthmatic - she's about as sexy as an accordian. i've watched over 500 of these videos for descriptions, and this one stands apart. you keep waiting for her to faint from breathing so hard *LOL*
i never thought of turning the volume down on porn - you could turn on your favorite sexy tune to go along with the action. do it yourself soundtrack :D
I actually think its both however, as 'webmasters' we only ever hear one side of the view.. The paysite owners.Quote:
Originally Posted by gaystoryman
I personally dont think its either of those things, as i mentioned above, its all about the models, if a studio has hot models, which the surfer / viewer is looking for then obviously the titles from those studios will sell. There is a reason that Hollywood movies pay huge numbers for the actors / actresses in their movies, those actors are what us, the viewing public want to see.Quote:
if the surfer truly doesn't care about quality in any sense, just wants to shoot their load, why do films like those produced by citiboyz turn over so well? why are their huge pre-books for Bel Ami films? Is it that they produce the same low end stuff or high quality which gets people fantatical about their stuff?
How many of us would have talked about or seen Troy had Brad Pitt not been scantily clad, how many of us would have talked about or seen Alexander if Colin Farrel wasnt in it? How many of us wouldnt have talked about or seen many either of these movies if, instead of their lead roles being played by 'stars' they were played by Bob Jones from Tenessee? Sex sells, it really all comes down to that (see further down my answer).
I actually think again, this is a question where the answer lays with both the surfer and the webmaster / producer / site owners. If a surfer leaves a site because it doesnt 'do it' for them then the site owner needs to fix the problem.Quote:
Does the surfer go from one site to another simply because they are looking for a quick jack off or is it because what they have found so far simply doesn't satisfy them? Is it that the surfer is lowering the bar or the producer?
However, on the flip side of the coin, how can the producer fix the problem if they dont have the funds available to do so or, in fact, the need to do so, as i mentioned above, its a numbers game especially when it comes to paysites, send enough traffic to a site, even if it has 2 words and 2 pictures on the tour and eventually a sale will be made, the same can be said for movies that you find in the stores, if enough people look at the DVD cover, eventually one of them will buy the DVD. As i mentioned above, sex sells.
True enough but, ultimately, you might less sales if it has a higher price tag. Why risk charging more when, you already know you can sell 200 $20 movies? If something isnt broken, dont fix it.Quote:
Personally I think quality will always win out in a long run. Yes if you add an extra 1k to the production cost if you saved that over 5 films you could produce another film... however if you add that extra 1k to a film, to make it more than the normal, you might also be able to better justify a higher resale price instead of the $20.
You know i have thought about this several times in the past couple of years and to be honest, so far as 'porn' goes, unless it is a specific 'series' type production or, a big budget production, this wouldnt work. My reasons for stating it wouldnt work? Surfers are cheap and, its just porn at the end of the day.Quote:
I mean consider how they release a video today, then in 3 or 4 months release a director's cut where there is more added and boy has the price risen... so why can't a good video producer do the same here?
True enough yet, the same is true for almost every type of business in the world, a few do forward plan and, because of that they make a shitload of $$ but, at the same time, someone like Microsoft, doesnt have another 10000 people all trying to target the same market as they do, they dont have to worry about rebills, upsells, cross sells, saturation and all that other stuff that we do in the adult industry.Quote:
I think many companies lose track of the long term goal. They seek to reap the profits today and don't look beyond that. Eventually the well does run dry, but a good producing company like Citiboyz as an example, will weather a lot more ups & downs than the quick buck producer. And that means extended profits, higher retail pricing, and much higher profits... so I wonder, who really is setting this low standard?
They launch a product and, for the most part, people HAVE to use it and, if they dont have to, they are forced to when it comes time to upgrade their computer. Porn doesnt work like that unfortunately, once a movie or site is released, even if it is an original one, it gets copied within weeks at least, the premise of it does.
Lets also not forget, many of the movies that were released a good 5-10 years ago are now being 'licensed' for web use. Many webmasters are flocking to these DVD's to put them inside their sites but, the harsh reality of life is, many surfers will have ALREADY SEEN these movies in the stores and perhaps even own them. Going back to what i said about Microsoft, you dont see them charging a recurring fee for us to use Windows 95 if we already own an older version of the software.
Another aspect of the adult movie is that, as i just mentioned, because the industry has matured, there are now even more ways for these production companies to profit from their titles, VOD, web licensing, PPV, rentals, the list goes on.
I know one guy from the UK who has 3 DVD's that he made almost 5 years ago recently added to one of the large PPV companies, even though those films made him his 'profit' years ago, he is still clearing close to $700 a month from PPV licensing.
I am also trying to persuade him to start licensing the titles for webmasters to use whereby he'd license the DVD's for around $100 a pop in this scenario, he'd be able to make back his initial $5000 from 5 years ago with only 50 licenses to webmasters being sold. Im sure in another 5 years we'll see more ways to make money from our old work too.
As i said above, if something sells, why change the format?
Regards,
Lee
There are obviously different approaches to marketing.
One viewpoint posted here, and I've seen it consistently from that poster's approach in everything he's written, is do the absolute minimum necessary, rip off/deceive the member/buyer wherever you can, annoy the fuck out of the surfer with a million popups/consoles/spyware installs/whatever else, make the absolute crappiest content you can, insult the intelligence of the surfer, take whatever money you can get this way, and run. The same poster has advocated working with dishonest sponsors that shave under the theory that they "produce more money."
Obviously, for this poster, that approach must work, since it's touted as gospel by him and apparently must be successful, at least to some extent, or to his level of success.
However, a number of other posters, possibly the majority (who I happen to agree with) believe that there's a better way.
Treat your member/buyer as an intelligent human being who wants a quality product (be it video or website), provide a high quality product, offer great support/service and frequent updates (membership sites) or good quality video with some nice extras (DVD sales) and this will yield either extended rebills (membership model) or repeat purchases of other titles in your line (DVD model).
Of course the quality of the models will make a significant difference in the transaction in any case... if you have the most gorgeous models on the planet, you can treat your customers like shit or produce a crappy product with bad editing and sound, and people will probably *still* buy your product. But if you have OK or somewhat mediocre models/scenes/artwork, but fabulous service, tons of content, updates like clockwork, or amazing, artsy DVDs, you'll probably do really well.
But if a company does both -- provide a fantastic product with gorgeous models, high quality photography, great editing and sound, extras here and there (or, on the website model... honest, non-misleading marketing, not annoying your member with obnoxious upsells/spyware/etc, frequent updates and responsive service -- combining both will be a double whammy that helps to fuel fast and sustained growth and stability.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lee
Because that is the best the consumer has to buy right now.
If someone offers a better Amatuer PornSite product, the potential to capture those sales is great...
Steve
Huh? How do you work that out? If the consumer wants a better quality than 'amateur' they will buy a production by one of the larger studios.Quote:
Originally Posted by desslock
Regards,
Lee
a better amateur porn video wouldn't mean better quality in terms of lighting or camera. it would mean shooting it so it wasn't stupid, as so many are. it would mean NOT putting music over the masturbation or sex that made the scene ludicrous. it would mean taking the time to find the right music. it would mean taking time to do edits that make sense and make the movie more interesting and hotter.
and none of that needs to cost a single dime.
See, to me, an amateur movie shouldnt have any fancy music or transition effects between scenes. Take a look at the Dirk Yates or Active Duty studio lines, they dont have any fancy music of graphics yet, they sell REALLY well.Quote:
Originally Posted by basschick
Why? Because their models are hot and ultimately, thats what it all comes down to, if you have hot models, the movies are going to sell, irrespective of whether the product is packaged with 'quality' editing or audio.
Regards,
Lee
We've found that whereas obviously people are most interested in the visual offerings of any video clip, sound definitely is essential to each clip. At the very least so as not to distract from the video.
The right audio elements - quality sound, realtime sound (voices, noises, etc) - all play in to what the member gets out of the experience.
A video can be hot as hell, visually, but if there's a problem with the sound that can't be fixed in the post production, we'll scrap that whole session if need be.
lee, read my post again. at no time do i talk about transitions or anything else - just good sound quality, good edits (meaning cuts, not frills) and music that doesn't detract when it's there.
most amateur videos DO have music - the only difference is i think that the music should fit the video.
All my research and effort couldn't produce for me a clear idea of what kinds of music actually would fit into adult film. All I know is most of the vids I watched as examples used not so great music that didn't do much to accentuate the visuals. Which is what the whole point of the music is in first place. I think in this age of DVD everyone should offer a natural/with music option so people can pick just groans, or groans plus music.
So that means producers should be cleaning up their audio track really well and making it sound great, plus picking out fantastic music that matches the scenes.
Americans have been at it a lot longer, but I think by far the absolute best example of how to produce a quality video, both aurally and visually, is the work of Eurocreme. That is the level of quality that all US producers should strive for.