Ok... this tripped my anger button

I am told that often I am not very good at being politically correct or clearly communicating my position in a post.

Therefore, let me first start by saying, "NO! I have not converted to being an animal rights activist." I continue to live by a hunter's code.

If a hunter's ethics are offensive to some of you. Then I extend my sincere apologies and we can agree to disagree.

Having stated this:

I have never been in favour of any creature, big or small needlessly suffering. As such, I ask that if you are moved by this, you petition the French goverment to stop this practice. Sending a letter of complaint doesn't take that much time.

http://www.thesun.co.uk/article/0,,2-2005450117,00.html

And for the record, I don't know of anyone that hunts that would agree with this barbaric process.

If you do make the effort to write a letter may want to toss in the fact that in France it is part of their cuisine procedures to force feed geese until their livers burst. In order to "enhance the flavour" of the liver that is used in their world famous pates.

Well far be it from he to criticize the manner in which The Sun reports a story (hehe) but that article left out the fact that:

- What's being reported in that story, i.e. using live dogs and cats as bait, is illegal. That article makes it sound like it's something the French government approves of and condones and that's not the case.

- Other papers reporting the story point out that these are mostly stray dogs and cats being used for this. Now I love dogs and cats just as much as the next person, but in some parts of the world stray dogs and cats might as well be rats. Nuisances, not cuddly housepets.

- Geese have nothing to do with it.


Yeah it's a sick and twisted thing but I don't think it does any good to make it seem like the French have all decided to sit back, chill, and guffaw merrily while it happens, thumbing their noses at anyone that takes offense. I mean maybe they're not rioting in protest against it (ok bad taste, I admit) but what should one expect em to do? Assign armed guards to every stray dog and cat on the island?

Speakin' of riots, on the scale of national priorities and issues of pressing concern to the people of France maintenant, stray dog shark bait might not be right up there at le very top.

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/n...dog_shark.html

another article on it from National Geographic that at least tries to paint a clearer picture of it all.

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Originally Posted by CorbinFisher_BD

Well far be it from he to criticize the manner in which The Sun reports a story (hehe) but that article left out the fact that:

- What's being reported in that story, i.e. using live dogs and cats as bait, is illegal. That article makes it sound like it's something the French government approves of and condones and that's not the case.

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I am going to get blasted for this next comment. But I'm going to state it anyway.

What is systemic of France and French culture is the ability to not see what they don't want to see and not acknowledge what they don't want to acknowledge.

Yes it might be ilegal on paper. But rest assured, it is being tolerated and not enforced. At the most basic levels, they get cheap shark steaks and it eliminates the problem without having to spend money on dog catchers and humain disposal.

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Originally Posted by Hamilton Steele

What is systemic of France and French culture is the ability to not see what they don't want to see and not acknowledge what they don't want to acknowledge.

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Deja vu! that's almost word for word what my hubby was saying last night about them.

Many years ago (the 60's-70's) he was in France and that part of the world quite frequently.

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Originally Posted by CorbinFisher_BD

- Other papers reporting the story point out that these are mostly stray dogs and cats being used for this. Now I love dogs and cats just as much as the next person, but in some parts of the world stray dogs and cats might as well be rats. Nuisances, not cuddly housepets..

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?????????

I'm sorry, but again: ?????????????????????????????????

So, because an animal is not cuddly and lovable, it makes it OK to shove a hook through its snout and drag it WHILE STILL ALIVE as shark bait??????

i know some people who aren't cuddly or attractive. maybe we could use them for sharkbait instead. unlike the cats and dogs, at least you could explain to the humans that they were making a contribution...

We use live fish as bait. We raise live animals in some pretty atrocious conditions for food. We do a lot of messed up things to animals. We get pissed off when dolphins get caught in drift nets, yet don't much care for the tuna.

What determines what animals shouldn't suffer and which ones we're willing to put through some pretty rough shit for our own convenience? Lotta cows live pretty miserable lives before slaughtered, but because they're nothing but food to us no one really much cares.

Hamilton_Steele doesn't take issue with hunting, so has no problem blowing a bird outta the sky for sport. (I hunt too, so am just using that as an example).

What makes dogs and cats so special? That they're pets to us here in the West? Other parts of the world don't share that perception.

And so us using our own cultural viewpoints to condemn other cultures for what they do that we do not approve of is, I feel, prejudiced and ethnocentric.

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Originally Posted by XXXWriterDude

?????????

I'm sorry, but again: ?????????????????????????????????

So, because an animal is not cuddly and lovable, it makes it OK to shove a hook through its snout and drag it WHILE STILL ALIVE as shark bait??????

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To a certain extent? Yes. At least that's how people tend to treat animal rights.

Bunnies are cuddly and cute so let's not test makeup on them.
Dogs are our pets, so let's get pissed when people in other countries eat them.
Horses are our companions and friends so let's make eating horses illegal.

So, here in the US, it's totally normal to eat cows but since we decided horses weren't food and instead companions sometime back, we're horrified at the prospect of their being used for food.

I remember when I lived in South America how horrified some US citizens there would get when they'd find out that guinea pigs were a local delicacy. "How could anyone eat them?! They're pets!" I even knew someone who had like 100 pet guinea pigs he "rescued" from local stores, buying them before anyone who'd wanna eat em could. Same with rabbits.

Eat chickens = yes. Eat parrots = no.

Trap and kill: raccoons, possums, rats, mice, and other such animals considered pests and vermin.

But don't trap and kill cats and dogs because they're our cuddly pets.

I even remember reading an article awhile back about people freaking out and pissed off over the killing of feral cats in Australia. Cuz they're kitties! Say nothing of the fact they're nonindigenous pests causing great harm to native species.

When I lived in Egypt, Westerners were horrified by the local police going out in to the street once a month to shoot and kill stray dogs on sight. But these dogs were pests - carried disease, attacked people, were a real nuisance.

In Bolivia, stray dogs were a real nuisance and carried rabies. But they didn't kill them there. They'd capture them, spay and neuter them, give them rabies innoculations, and set them free. A stray dog with a yellow collar on was a spayed, neutered, rabies-free stray dog.

Why'd they treat them that way in Bolivia, yet blow them the hell away in Egypt?

Again, just pointing out the cultural differences and how we should remind ourselves cultures and circumstances beyond our own dictate different behaviors that we might not necessarily have a right to condemn.

one difference about fish as bait is they don't spend several minutes drowning when people do use them.

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Originally Posted by CorbinFisher_BD

Hamilton_Steele doesn't take issue with hunting, so has no problem blowing a bird outta the sky for sport. (I hunt too, so am just using that as an example).

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Again I'm most likely not going to be politically correct in this. But here goes.

Don't you ever put words in my mouth or make an assumption about what I would or would not.

That said,

I have hunted a hell of alot in my life.

BUT I HAVE NEVER ONCE HUNTED FOR SPORT!!!
I'm not going to start any time soon. And when I target practice I go to a club.

If something sacrifices it's life for the benefit of another. A person damn well better show some respect for it and use every part of that animal possible. Otherwise you're just another "good old boy" with a beer in his hands and shit for brains.


And for the record:

1) I do not hunt when I'm in a city centre or go on hunting trips. There are grocery stores available.

2) I only hunt to put the food on my table, the furs on my bed or back, the fat for heating, etc.

3) When I shoot something I make reasonable effort to make it a clean kill. Otherwise I don't take the shot. You don't make things suffer.

4) Guns and weapons are neither cool nor toys. They are tools! You treat them with respect too.

They are NOT subjects for bragging, showing off, etc. You take a gun out only to do a job and when that job is done you store it ***PROPERLY** IE: Open chamber, trigger locked, locked cabinet and ammo locked up in an entirely different area of the property. And you don't friggen tell anyone where they are. In my home you wouldn't even know where my guns or ammo are.

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Originally Posted by basschick

one difference about fish as bait is they don't spend several minutes drowning when people do use them.

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So they don't suffer or feel pain?

Well... thanks for the gun safety tips, HS.

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Originally Posted by CorbinFisher_BD

So they don't suffer or feel pain?

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I'm sure your a nice guy and I can see how someone might think that I'm nothing but a good old boy that likes to walk around in the woods handling weapons and drinking beers with his buddies. I also speak my mind and don't give a Tom-cod about what anyone says

So having said that...

You know I don't mean to take a whizzz on your parade. I still don't believe in owning pets and I don't love animals like XXXwriter or Basschick. And my opinion always remains the same. "Animals are animals and People are people."

But having said that my father always taught me to to have a clue what I was arguing before I opened my mouth.

I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that I'm most likely the only person on this board that grew up in a fishing village without electricy to plumbing. Trust me I know my fish and I know animals.

Fish don't feel pain. In fact they don't feel anything the way you or I would or most creatures understand it. To be blunt they don't have the the same nerves and when you touch a fish they react more to sudden temperature change and pressure. But no one uses live bait when you catch shark and yes I've caught my share of atlantic sharks.


You don't troll for shark. You bait the water and cast your lines and wait.
So in the dog's case I can pretty much work out what they are doing.

And here is whats happening:

1) The water is baited with something like chum, cut up fish, half-rotted butcher's blood or any other strong blood scented product.

2) The dog is hooked via the snout. Then tossed into the water.

3) The dog panics and swims desperate to try to get back into the boat.

4) Now if the water is too warm the sharks might take longer to appear because they aren't as hungry. If the water is too cold it will take longer for the stuff in the water to reach a shark's senses.

5) When the sharks do appear they will slowly begin to work into a frenzy. This has got to put the dog in a complete panic. Imagine a preditor in the water like that making "runs" on you? (And animals know when there is a preditor around)

6) When a shark finally does strike it will be from the side and most likely grab only a leg and begin to tear.

Now sharks don't "Bite" through their prey. Instead they bite, clamp and saw through them by shaking their bodies back and forth. Literally tearing their prey in half. Or in the dog's case, limb by limb.

Trust me the damn dog is alive for most of the ordeal. The average dog is just too damn big to for a shark to kill it in one strike. And yea, I'm factoring in great whites and pretty much almost any other shark species.

You see they are using the dogs not because they are cheaper. But because they will guarantee more catches.

The dog is warm blooded, so the shark reacts to it better.
The dog is paddling all over the place and that further helps attraction.
Plus sharks prefer live game over dead.

Live game will get more sharks frenzied and bitting. Thus overall a better day of fishing.

In normal shark fishing...
You toss in your chum and put a big chunk of something tasty on the hook and wait.


So yes b'ys. I don't agree with this.

This study says that fish do indeed feel pain and exhibit all the characteristics (both physical and behavioral) of animals able to sense pain.

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Originally Posted by CorbinFisher_BD

This study says that fish do indeed feel pain and exhibit all the characteristics (both physical and behavioral) of animals able to sense pain.

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Buddy,

Putting on my Masters degree and saying this with a straight face.

I can find a study on what umbrella opens faster or what ketchup has more lip smack goodness. All made by some academic nerd that doesn't know shit from shinola.

Look,

If you depend on the sea for money and food. Plus you grow up a boat-scont from bumfuck no where, with a bunch of other people that lived and died on that rock. You damn well know what the creature feels or doesn't feel and what it is like.

Because it's your job to know.

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Originally Posted by CorbinFisher_BD

We use live fish as bait. We raise live animals in some pretty atrocious conditions for food. We do a lot of messed up things to animals. We get pissed off when dolphins get caught in drift nets, yet don't much care for the tuna.

What determines what animals shouldn't suffer and which ones we're willing to put through some pretty rough shit for our own convenience? Lotta cows live pretty miserable lives before slaughtered, but because they're nothing but food to us no one really much cares.

Hamilton_Steele doesn't take issue with hunting, so has no problem blowing a bird outta the sky for sport. (I hunt too, so am just using that as an example).

What makes dogs and cats so special? That they're pets to us here in the West? Other parts of the world don't share that perception.

And so us using our own cultural viewpoints to condemn other cultures for what they do that we do not approve of is, I feel, prejudiced and ethnocentric.

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I definitely see your point. But there's a difference in slaughtering a cow quickly for meat and hooking a hook through its snout and dragging it through water so a shark can eat it.

My problem is not so much in the killing of animals for food but in the way they might be treated, abused, tortured and or harmed in the process.

If you're going to do it, then just do it. But do not torture them beyond pain for the sheer sport of it. That it what is absolutely atrocious. And trust me, if I was anywhere near that and I had a gun, I'd fuckin' shoot the humans just to make a point. Inflicting unnecessary pain and suffering on any creature--fluffy and cuddly or not--is absolutely unacceptable to me, and it infuriates me to no end. There is no acceptable excuse for it, plain and simple.

i thought my point was pretty clear - fish don't drown. i didn't say anthing about pain.

fish also don't have the same level of attachment and intellegence as cats or dogs. but i was trying not be be reactionary on this thread. i don't believe anyone should fish - for shark or anything else. i'm a vegetarian who doesn't buy products that animal test and hasn't bought leather since 1994. i thought i'd leave my politics off this thread and respond only to the points made.

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Originally Posted by CorbinFisher_BD

So they don't suffer or feel pain?

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Originally Posted by XXXWriterDude

I definitely see your point. But there's a difference in slaughtering a cow quickly for meat and hooking a hook through its snout and dragging it through water so a shark can eat it.

My problem is not so much in the killing of animals for food but in the way they might be treated, abused, tortured and or harmed in the process.

If you're going to do it, then just do it. But do not torture them beyond pain for the sheer sport of it.

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We better get a weather forcast from Hell. It's got to be frozen over because you and I are in agreement.

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Originally Posted by Hamilton Steele

B
If you depend on the sea for money and food. Plus you grow up a boat-scont from bumfuck no where, with a bunch of other people that lived and died on that rock. You damn well know what the creature feels or doesn't feel and what it is like.

Because it's your job to know.

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Well I'm still gonna go with the study over you.

I grew up in the desert but that don't make me the world's foremost expert on sand.

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Originally Posted by XXXWriterDude

I definitely see your point. But there's a difference in slaughtering a cow quickly for meat and hooking a hook through its snout and dragging it through water so a shark can eat it.

My problem is not so much in the killing of animals for food but in the way they might be treated, abused, tortured and or harmed in the process.

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Originally Posted by basschick

i thought my point was pretty clear - fish don't drown. i didn't say anthing about pain.

fish also don't have the same level of attachment and intellegence as cats or dogs. but i was trying not be be reactionary on this thread.

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I hear what you both were saying. I wasn't really talking about any of those, though. My initial response in this thread was the very first response to H_S's post. That's the one I was responding to, and that I felt was unfairly critical of a different culture. The comments about geese, for example.

Not to mention the fact that I felt the tabloid Sun wasn't the best source to go to for information on the story because they're pretty well known for sensationalism.

I didn't see why a discussion over dogs being treated horribly and tortured had to be about bashing another culture. Reunion Island is made up of a diverse array of ethnicities and religions - Malays, Indians, French, so on. Different cultures have different values and as often as our own cultural values taint what we do in the eyes of the world and as often as we behave in a manner we feel is appropriate through our own culture, we should be respectful of others as well.

Now I ain't saying putting hooks through dog snouts is a cultural thing. But eating dogs is. Not viewing dogs as pets is. Viewing dogs as pests and nuisances is. Seeing them as just another beast to be used for whatever purpose we see fit is. Those are all ways in which different cultures view dogs. Just like we view cows as food yet some cultures view them as sacred.

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Originally Posted by CorbinFisher_BD

I'm not saying putting hooks through dog snouts is a cultural thing. But eating dogs is. Not viewing dogs as pets is. Viewing dogs as pests and nuisances is. Seeing them as just another beast to be used for whatever purpose we see fit is. Those are all ways in which different cultures view dogs. Just like we view cows as food yet some cultures view them as sacred.

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Good point, and it's one that is well taken. It's also why I don't get so high up on my horse when I hear that an older man is caught with his pants down with a 16 or 17-year-old teenager, because in other cultures, such behavior is condoned and often practiced. Hell, Rome was built on it. You're absolutely right in your assessment that Americans are typically arrogant people who see the world only through the eyes of our culture, and that is definitely a ridiculous way of thinking. American culture is built upon sexual repression, hypocrisy and moral sanctimoniousness. It's a culture that tells us that we are free to live our lives as we want, yet penalizes us for doing so. It's a culture built on building monopolies and intolerance, and I personally have very little respect for American morals and values. I am much more European in my way of thinking. Well, except when it comes to eating dog and cat. :)

we have a problem with stray cats and dogs back home a lot.
I've had to carry pepper spray and/or gas gun to keep these pests off my dog being attacked.

My grandmother has been attacked by stray dogs. I've almost been attacked by stray dogs so many times I lost count.

I'm all for castration or putting them to sleep, humanly not beating the crap out of them.

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Originally Posted by CorbinFisher_BD

Well I'm still gonna go with the study over you.

I grew up in the desert but that don't make me the world's foremost expert on sand.

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So I take it you didn't grow up in a village of glass blowers?

And I'm sure some expert on sand can catagorize, break down what sand's chemical compounds are, work out the atomic weight, etc.

But they wouldn't be able to turn that sand into so much as a simple glass to drink out of.

Same can be said for studies on fish, fishing villages and fishing.

I've seen some species of fish bite a hook, rip part of it's mouth open and still go back over and over again for that bait.

Trust me if they felt pain the same way you and I do, they would have left the hook alone after the first strike. Most animals do.

Regarding fish:

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Originally Posted by Hamilton Steele

Trust me if they felt pain the same way you and I do, they would have left the hook alone after the first strike. Most animals do.

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Yeah, but isn't the theory that because their brains are so small, they don't retain the memory of pain? I guess if we were fish, we would know for certain just how much pain it is possible to feel, but I would suspect that a big ol' hook through the mouth would be plenty painful for just about any creature with a circulatory system.

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Originally Posted by XXXWriterDude

Regarding fish:




Yeah, but isn't the theory that because their brains are so small, they don't retain the memory of pain? I guess if we were fish, we would know for certain just how much pain it is possible to feel, but I would suspect that a big ol' hook through the mouth would be plenty painful for just about any creature with a circulatory system.

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I don't want to get into another one of these debates.

Right now I'm living in France and watching it degenerate into a facist Nazi state. I'm really up to my eyeballs in work, problems and controversy.

How about someone tell some Newfie jokes.
Or spam my french yahoo group with gay porn so I can laugh at homophobes.

I really need a laugh right now.

Cute or not. Intelligent or not. Something (a being) you appreciate or not.
No matter which way you look at it, it is simply wrong, and a THEORY about whether or not some beings feel pain is meaningless. I am not interested in theories, only fact. The fact is, the being is (or was) alive and another being decided to end it for them.

I have a theory that the persons or fisherpersons (and those that see nothing wrong with it) feel no pain because (as far as I am concerned) they are thinking with their ass, therefore they should be the ones dragged behind the boat with a hooks through their skulls & genitals.

Using that mentality, I guess babies (undeveloped brains) hanging from hooks at the local playground is a good idea and acceptable... merely bait for land sharks (child rapists).