Break The Sense of Entitlement

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12-05-2005, 03:20 PM
CorbinFisher_BD

Break The Sense of Entitlement

I was curious as to peoples' thoughts on this subject:

how to go about breaking peoples' sense of entitlement when it comes to stuff online. That is, the feeling that there's no such thing as stealing porn, stealing content, stealing software, so forth.

It seems that with any intangible product (being music, videos, software, and stuff that you can't actually have sitting before you and touch) there's this sense that you're entitled to do all you can to get it for free. I see on discussion boards all the time people openly talking about how they'd never buy software or pay for a site membership because they can get it all for free (through p2p and hacked memberships/videos).

You never hear people sitting around talking about how they're all perfectly entitled to walk in to a store and grab whatever they want and walk out the door because they have no desire to pay for it. We universally recognize such types as thieves. But when it comes to non-physical products online, there's still a big culture of entitlement to such things.

A porn fan would probably immediately recognize that it was wrong and illegal to walk in to a brick and mortar porn store and steal a basket of DVDs. But take those DVDs, rip them, and post them online and that same person's ethics will change entirely, and they'll feel like they have every right to acquire the digital copies.

How would you suggest that culture be broken?
12-05-2005, 03:23 PM
Lee

Quote:

Originally Posted by CorbinFisher_BD

How would you suggest that culture be broken?

Sue the fuckers :thumbsup:

Can you image all the coverage that would be generated if 5 or 6 companies all banded together and started to sue these theives?

We have anti-piracy / anti-theft laws for a reason but very few companies in the industry use them.

Regards,

Lee
12-05-2005, 03:27 PM
CorbinFisher_BD

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lee

Sue the fuckers :thumbsup:

Can you image all the coverage that would be generated if 5 or 6 companies all banded together and started to sue these theives?

We have anti-piracy / anti-theft laws for a reason but very few companies in the industry use them.

Regards,

Lee

That's an idea that is more and more appealing to me with each day.

There do indeed need to be some real consequences suffered by people who so blatantly go about stealing. Although there will surely be a backlash by some who think it's too heavyhanded and draconian, I can't imagine how else to go about it that'd have any real effect.

So long as people can go about doing it with no consequence, they'll go on feeling like there must not be anything wrong.

Everyone gave the music labels shit for suing individual music file swappers, but I couldn't see anything wrong with what they did. They had to make examples out of people, and the simple fact of the matter is that people who were trading their files were indeed breaking the law. And they weren't Robin Hoods, either.
12-05-2005, 03:57 PM
Dzinerbear

I agree with Lee.

How many webmasters pulled all of the Titan stuff off of their sites when the first lawsuit started happening.

I used to download software and look for cracks, but that became too time consuming. Just like the porn business, the password trading business is full of spammers and scammers who never give you what they promise. So when you'd "click here for a Photoshop password" and it opened 45 porn windows, well, it just became more of a pain in the butt. So, in this case the spammers actually killed the vehicle they were using to try and sell their other products.

So, this brings up a good idea. Why don't you floor the market with fake Corbin Fisher downloads. I don't know if this is possible but create a movie clip that has 45 seconds of the real deal and then flip it to a white screen for the rest of the movie. Do you understand what I'm getting at here? You'll need a clip that has the file size of a real clip, otherwise everyone will know that the 48k clip isn't the real deal.

Anyway, I'll leave the details up to you techie people. But if you and Sean Cody and whomever got together and created a whole bunch of these fakers and then flooded the market with them, surfers would get frustrated because they'd spend all this time downloading clips of white screens. Eventually people may just stay away from Sean Cody and Corbin Fisher clips because they're a waste of time. You may recuperate some memberships this way.

Of course you might just piss the people off for good. But who cares, you never had them as a customer to begin with.

I remember when AVS started the newsgroups were full of people screaming and they would never buy memberships. But I got so tired of going to Hunk Hunters and getting bogus "free porn" than wasn't free and wasn't much in the way of porn that eventually I just bought an Adult Check membership to make it easier for me to get to see the porn I wanted.

Stop making it so easy for people to see you stuff. The above might help. suing people (or at least scaring them with a cease and desist letter) might be another good way.

Michael
12-05-2005, 04:05 PM
XXXWriterDude

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dzinerbear

So, this brings up a good idea. Why don't you floor the market with fake Corbin Fisher downloads. I don't know if this is possible but create a movie clip that has 45 seconds of the real deal and then flip it to a white screen for the rest of the movie. Do you understand what I'm getting at here? You'll need a clip that has the file size of a real clip, otherwise everyone will know that the 48k clip isn't the real deal.

You know, this is something that Madonna did with her last record, American Life. People would download the songs and all they would get would be a recording of Madonna saying, "What the fuck are you doing?" in a bitter voice, as if to imply, "How dare you steal my work?" I thought that was pretty cool.
12-05-2005, 04:09 PM
Lee

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dzinerbear

So, this brings up a good idea. Why don't you floor the market with fake Corbin Fisher downloads. I don't know if this is possible but create a movie clip that has 45 seconds of the real deal and then flip it to a white screen for the rest of the movie. Do you understand what I'm getting at here? You'll need a clip that has the file size of a real clip, otherwise everyone will know that the 48k clip isn't the real deal.

We used to do that on P2P networks and it worked really well except, it actually was a video clip we distributed.

About 15 seconds before the end of the clip when the moneyshot was about to happen we encoded a popup in to the clip which sent the viewer to our sites custom join page telling them they had to become a member to see the end of the movie.

We got LOTS of signups that way... Until Microsoft stepped in and release Media Player 9 which completely cut out the option of spawning a console in the clip :(

P2P Networks are a great source of traffic if you can utilize it efficiently, im waiting for the day when DRM allows us to play the first part of a clip before requiring the viewer to get a license to finish it, when that day comes, you can guarantee ill be one of the first people jumping all over DRM especially for marketing on P2P Networks :)

The problem isnt necessarily with P2P networks though, as you stated, many webmasters pulled their illegal Titan content once word spread that Titan were vigorously defending their copyrighted materials.

Unfortunately, as Brian mentioned, Titan did get some flack for what they did however, like Brian, i thought what they did was great, its about time more people in the industry realized there are repurcussions for content theft and not just images or movies, text, design layouts, you name it, if someone else created it, the copyright belongs to them.

Many people in the industry dont realize that when you get a designer to build a site, create a banner or write some text for them, the designer is actually the legal holder of the copyright, even after you have paid them for the work unless, it is specified they are transfering ownership to the client in its entirity. Can you image the fuss that would occur if a rogue designer suddenly decided they wanted to get ALL of their copyright works back? Their clients wouldnt have a leg to stand on if it ever went to the courts.

But yeah, there does need to be something done to stop copyright theft in the industry on a much wider scale than what Titan are doing, as we have seen from their actions, defending our copyrighted work does work however, it is costly so many companies simply cant afford litigation, even if they win.

We sued someone several years ago for stealing some of our original works, we won, they never paid and were out about $10k because of it. Thankfully the company who we won a judgement against is no longer in the industry but the fact remains, we were still out by $10k plus damages even though we won.

Regards,

Lee
12-05-2005, 04:51 PM
CorbinFisher_BD

Well I'm less interested in stuff like what Titan's dealing with (producer vs. other businesses/webmasters) and more interested in the actual end users and their sense of entitlement. The belief that they're not stealing, that they're not obliged to pay, that content is free for the taking.

I think shady webmasters who steal know their up to no good, and know they're doing something wrong but hope to get away with it anyways.

They consumer who sees absolutely nothing wrong with stealing - doesn't even see it as stealing - and feels they have every right to anything and everything online is more what I'm talking about.
12-05-2005, 05:06 PM
XXXWriterDude

Quote:

Originally Posted by CorbinFisher_BD

Well I'm less interested in stuff like what Titan's dealing with (producer vs. other businesses/webmasters) and more interested in the actual end users and their sense of entitlement. The belief that they're not stealing, that they're not obliged to pay, that content is free for the taking.

Actually, the first thing you see in a Titan video is the message "Most people would never walk in to a store and steal a DVD." Or something like that. I forget exactly what it says. So, in fact, Titan is trying to eliminate this feeling of entitlement as well.

And you're right; the problem does lie with consumers. But people will do lots of stuff if they know they can get away with it. I mean, most people would agree that it's wrong to run a red light. But put those same people in the middle of an intersection at 4 in the morning with NO ONE around, and I'll bet you at least 4 out of 10 run that light. In the absence of authority (i.e, there is no store security at home on the Internet), people will do all kinds of things they know to be wrong.

How can you eliminate that? You can't. It will never change. Online piracy may never go away. The best you can hope for is deterring some people by slapping big fines on the major culprits. It's like the drug wars. They'll NEVER end. This is something you are, unfortunately, stuck with. It's just part of the business you've chosen to work in. Sad as that is to say, it's true.
12-05-2005, 06:49 PM
HotMaleVideos

Is it really an attitude of entitlement?

I always felt they did it because they could, without repercussions. The easy accessibility makes it all the more tempting. They probably consciously know it's wrong, but justify it to themselves with one excuse or another even though they know the real reason is that they're just cheap. Is cheapness a form of entitlement? I dunno... I can't think yet this week. long weekend. ;)

But in any case, I think it'd help to remove the "no repercussions" syndrom. Legal means, and technological means that alert them to the fact that they're not as anonymous as they think ("Your IP is...", etc.)
12-06-2005, 02:04 AM
desslock

Quote:

Originally Posted by CorbinFisher_BD

Well I'm less interested in stuff like what Titan's dealing with (producer vs. other businesses/webmasters) and more interested in the actual end users and their sense of entitlement. The belief that they're not stealing, that they're not obliged to pay, that content is free for the taking.

This is an interesting question, and the answer is probably more complicated then first thoughts. Going to court is an option (after all it's the American Way)... but I agree that its effectiveness in the long run would not be particularly high. Would I be inclined to litigate someone in... oh... Venezuela?

Let's apply some basic economics to this problem. Black markets are going to come with any line of products, particularly when people cannot acquire them legitimately. Could this mean that the price of some adult products are too high? File traders are a fact of the market, because the consumers are demanding it.

I've also been thinking about the long-term implications of selling creative content when it is now reality that duplicating such material is a fact of life. Producers are simply going to have to innovate to meet this change.

Value will come from things beyond creating and selling simple old fashioned movies. I see some websites already doing this pretty well. I'll point out one that comes to mind: Falcon Studios. Not only do they have a large site that is updated frequently, but they also groom a set of exclusive models who attract armies of fans who follow their every move and muscletwitch like they were rock stars.

If ya wanna see Matthew Rush, you know where you gotta go. Falcon Studios.

Sure, if you like Roman Heart you can join his Yahoo group, which often has copyrighted images with him going around. But on the other hand it is also a non-stop commercial for Falcon Studios.

If Falcon moved to shut down the Yahoo group they would essentially be upturning their middle finger to the thousands of customers subscribed to that group. The fans would like that as much as William Shatner saying to a hall full of Star Trek fans to get a life and move out of their parents basements.

Getting back to their innovative website: Falcon gets the models to have live chats and sex shows on their paysite. You can easily pull up their movies. You can rent them online. That is the value - Falcon's website makes it EASY to get your fix.

Compare this to the pirate's side of life, as Dzinerbear noted - you try downloading one movie; it could take hours. You get it, and you often can't figure out how to run it. They come with spyware. It all can get pretty ugly.

I would suggest that our industry could do good with some positive-message PSA's not showing lawbreakers in handcuffs, but rather the delighted face of a paying customer enjoying the EASE of getting their fix!

I've read some people on the Brent Everett yahoo group post "Desperately Need Help" messages for days on end about trying to get some pirated set of clips to link and play properly. I once wrote back informing them that they could have just gone to a legit site and rent it PPV for $15, an amount the guy probably spent eating at Chili's for dinner last night.

The ease and benefits of paid memberships could really be advertised and packaged better. That would address the "entitlement attitude" in a noticable way. People will pay for it, if they see how it benefits them.

WIIFM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Steve :coffee:

PS: Another suggestion - I would like to see us producers/creators to create a formal process so that if one rogue webmaster has stolen content on their site, his affiliates drop him. Then it would be a lot harder for him to profit off his operation. This would be a good "to do" benefit of a webmasters association. :coffee:
12-06-2005, 02:23 AM
gaystoryman

Ya know Steve, that is about the best answer I have seen so far on the topic. People want it free because they perceive it to be easier than paying.
:thumbsup:
12-06-2005, 02:23 AM
desslock

Quote:

Originally Posted by XXXWriterDude

It's like the drug wars. They'll NEVER end. This is something you are, unfortunately, stuck with.

Yes it is much like the drug situation, but there's no need to be dour. The barriers for supplying narcotics are government created penalties. A black market will appear for anything when a demand exists.

That is neither a positive or negative by the way... it is a fact, like the existance of the color green.

The more states and cities tax cigarettes, the more they will be traded on the street, off the books. Interstingly, if you added in the black markets of highly restricted economies like Brazil or Argentina to their real economies, you would get much more vibrant statistics.

A free market handles its problems primarily by innovation. This is a question you therefore can't really predict a certain outcome. But you can think and be creative to address. That's how 3M came up with the Post-It.

Steve
12-06-2005, 02:54 AM
chadknowslaw

My opinion is a little self-serving, but I think if more copyright owners sued pirates the problem would drop dramatically.
The vast majority of people that like porn don't regularly throw a brick through the window of a brick and mortar adult store because there is a good chance they will get caught and punished. There are still a few idiots that will break into a store to steal, but you cannot eliminate stupidity, just reduce the occurrence of it in your life.
If more copyright owners would start enforcing their copyrights, then the vast majority would realize it is not worth the risk. Right now, copyrighted material can be stolen on the internet with little risk of repercussion.
I can drive down on the Phoenix highways at 20 MPH over the speed limit with little fear because I know the enforcement is pretty relaxed. If I drive down the highway and every mile I see someone pulled over, I am going to drop my speed down to the limit.
I really don't like to have to sue people. I am not asking for more business. There are other lawyers that like to file copyright lawsuits and they are good at it--go to them. But seriously, GO TO THEM. Don't accept the status quo. Plus, do all the other things that have been suggested in this thread.

I just wish content providers and webmasters could unite for a common effort to reduce piracy but expecting adult content providers and webmasters to agree on anything is a stretch, especially when it involves putting money up front.:juggle:
12-06-2005, 04:18 AM
Matt 26z

It's not so much that people feel an entitlement to online porn as they do an entitlement to online services in general. Other than your ISP charges, the internet for the most part is totally free.

People have a hard time accepting that an online product should actually cost money. Especially when there are so many free offerings of the same. News, IM services, TV listings, message boards... porn. Free? You got it!

The problem stems much further than the availability of pirated content. This goes right back to the image we have created ourselves. That in most cases, porn is free. The effect of this has been the same as it has on every other type of website; an unwillingness to pay for what is offered for free in abundance.

I do not believe there is any real difference between the two types of chronic freeloaders. You've got those who limit themselves to authorized free content, and those who take part in unauthorized trading. Either way, they are freeloaders and of no worthwhile value to the industry in terms of what we are currently offering and/or the way we currently offer it. Nor do they cost us money out of pocket.

Anyhow.... Piracy isn't something the average website needs to worry about. It's primarily the DVD sellers. You VERY RARELY see made-for-internet content being traded unless we are talking the top quality couple sites in each niche. But for a surfer to think that before actually buying a membership he can check around for unauthorized content from XYZ studs, forget it.

As for suing porn traders, it won't have the effects of the RIAA lawsuits (that is, if they've even have an effect). The music industry is huge and it was a news story worthy of great coverage for them. However, nobody gives a damn about a gay porn company suing filesharers. News that doesn't get out can't become a deterrent.

Another thing that gay producers need to be prepared to accept is the fact that some people who they sue will be closeted men and teens, and the PR results of that within the gay community. If you did get news coverage, this would be it.
12-06-2005, 06:05 AM
basschick

a few years ago, we had a few small porn sites, and we were seeing some chargebacks. i phoned every one of them, and basically one guy summed it up pretty well - he said "i don't feel like i should have to pay for porn".

we talked for a while about the fact that we had to pay to license our content (he had actually believed we didn't pay for it - and in 1998, there was no free content). he said he had always heard porn was free on the internet, and when he had to pay, he felt ripped off. he seemed to feel very different about paying for sex stuff than non-sex stuff.

more recently i was working with someone on a panty paysite. the first time he got hit by password sites, it was devestating. and one of the guys whose passwords we yanked (just before we added pennywize) actually emailed me to complain. not only that - he complained that the server was slow *LOL* i did point out it was because of HIM that the server was slow and he explained the same thing - basically he felt no one should have to pay for porn.

those are only two guys, but i've heard this from many others. i can't figure out why these guys feel they are entitled to free porn - it is neither in the constitution nor is it on your dialup package when you first go online.

these same guys who pay for playboys and their dvd's at home seem to feel that somehow internet porn should be free. and if that ain't a sense of entitlement, i don't know what it is.

oh - yes, i do. it's fucking annoying.

CorbinFisher_BD - good post but other than talking to the surfers, all we can do is explain the expense and point out that if they want US to keep producing good porn, that takes $$$.

sadly my most successful way of getting them to pay on the chargebacks was to tell them they were committing a crime and that i would press charges. but i doubt that changed the underlying problem - that they felt they SHOULD be provided with free porn.
12-06-2005, 09:45 AM
Dzinerbear

Quote:

Originally Posted by basschick

those are only two guys, but i've heard this from many others. i can't figure out why these guys feel they are entitled to free porn - it is neither in the constitution nor is it on your dialup package when you first go online.

Because way back when the Internet first started porn was free. It was available on newsgroups, you could trade it on IRC, and you could even find it on the odd website. And anyone who could afford a scanner could go through his stack of Blueboys and create more "free" porn.

And the way I remember it, AVS's started popping up and the sales tactic of the day was to circulate posts on newsgroups that the FBI was going to start charging people who didn't prevent children from accessing porn.

There was such a backlash back then to the whole notion that one had to pay for porn, it was as if we were suggesting Americans turn in their guns.

But this seems to be how we do things on the Internet. Everything starts off free to get people used to obtaining and using a product, and then, at some point it starts moving towards a pay model. When WS_FTP was free, I saw no need to offer to pay for it. When they implemented free trials for 30 days and you couldn't just uninstall, download, and free install, then I bought it. It became more inconvenient for me not to pay. Now, I could learn how to clean my registry so I can download 30-day trials for the rest of my life, or I could look for another free FTP program, but (a) I don't enjoy playing with my registry and (b) I like WS FTP and I'm used to it, I don't want to change.

I also think desslock has made some excellent points. Perhaps Corbin Fisher could get some of their more popular guys back to do live shows. Advertise the feature at the beginning of the clips that end up circulating. basschick also made some good points about trying to educate people about the costs of prodcuing porn.

I had one member e-mail me. He said he loved my site but he didn't understand why I upgraded MANcheckPlus galleries more than Regular ones. I told him the reason was the MC+ galleries were semi-exclusive content that I obtained direct from a photographer. They cost me more money to buy. He said he understood, he just didn't see the point of popping off $40 a month to have access to a lot of stuff he'd never use. On the other hand, I've got people who just want the access so it's there when they want to use it. It's two extremes.

Michael
12-06-2005, 10:45 AM
Jasun

YOu know, just yesterday, I posted a thread on justusboys.com about the new Fratmen Podcast and one guy started to LOUDLY whine that we wer only making viewable in iTunes, and how Steve Jobs was this or that becuase he woulnd't make a version of iTunes for Linux.

When some people suggested that he spend the small amount for the Mac Emmulator so he could run it he said "That would require me to do something I don't do: Pay for Software".

He then tried to get me to make a special version of the podcast for him so he could see it.. even though he had no intention of ever joining the site.

People's feelings of entitlement run so deep that they have no qualms about asking the producers for free product. It's almost daily durring live shows when someone comes in and says "CAn someone please give me a free password so I can watch the show?" and when I tell them that everyone else pays for their membership and so should they, they always get rather religerant.

I guess my point really is that the culture of getting stuff for free has been made cool on the internet... people feel like thye're hackers because they have a free membership to AOL and know how to get files off of Fileshare.com.

It's going to take a lot more than anything we have in our arsenal right now to get that to change.

The Music Industry tried to appeal to young people's sense of.. I'm not sure.. with a site called www.keepmusiccoming.com which was pretty much a site that tried to say "If you don't stop downloading for free, there will be no more music". Stupid idea. Most people bombed the message boards and chat with insults and vicious attacks on the site, but then it turned into a place where teenagers shared info on how and where to find any album for free.

Maybe flooding the download sites with viruses or spoofed files would be a good idea.. maybe making 1,000 huge video files and calling them "Young Teen sucking cock" or "Studs and big juicy load" but then having then play nothing just to discourage downloaders would work in the short term.. who knows. The big problem that we have is that people can get away with it and it's fun... they're not going to stop doing it or even stop bragging about it.. hey sharing it makes them cool.
12-06-2005, 05:24 PM
desslock

Quote:

Originally Posted by basschick

a few years ago, we had a few small porn sites, and we were seeing some chargebacks. i phoned every one of them, and basically one guy summed it up pretty well - he said "i don't feel like i should have to pay for porn".

we talked for a while about the fact that we had to pay to license our content (he had actually believed we didn't pay for it - and in 1998, there was no free content). he said he had always heard porn was free on the internet, and when he had to pay, he felt ripped off. he seemed to feel very different about paying for sex stuff than non-sex stuff.

Basschick - I think your experience here is with an attitude that is all too common. But keep in mind though that this technology is new. So it is reasonable to expect a time of transition. Imagine people who have never lived around a toll road suddenly given the option to use one to get to work. Initally a lot of people might feel indignent for having to pay money for getting to work. Many people may stubbornly take their older, slower routes rather then have to pay for the new road.

Five or ten years later the numbers of the stubborn people will dwindle, and most people will probably start using the toll road ... mostly because everyone will accept the fact that the tollroad is there, and they will eventually see its benefits.

Steve
12-06-2005, 06:29 PM
gaystoryman

Quote:

Five or ten years later the numbers of the stubborn people will dwindle, and most people will probably start using the toll road ... mostly because everyone will accept the fact that the tollroad is there, and they will eventually see its benefits.

or perhaps more will use the toll road because they closed the non toll road or simply ignored its upkeep?

People want whatever for as little cost as possible. It doesn't matter if its porn, or programs or whatever. We all generally 'shop' for whatever we want, and even those with oodles of cash can be bargain hunters. I don't think this is a sense of entitlement, but simply a sense of being cheap, frugal, thrifty, or greedy. It is also a bit of laziness too. Why go to the trouble involved in signing up when you can supposedly snatch the stuff for free from some trading site?

To avoid fraud, we tend ot make signing up a bit more difficult than walking into a store and buying the stuff. Songs & music are simply over priced and the p2p sharing is the result. Who is to blame? The idea that the consumer wants something cheaper or the music industry who profits at the expense of not just the consumer but the artist?

I don't look at 'free' as something people expect so much as it is something people prefer and desire. Is that entitlement or simply being economical?
12-07-2005, 12:15 PM
CoNo4Amdam

Should We Say Morality?

Quote:

Originally Posted by CorbinFisher_BD

I was curious as to peoples' thoughts on this subject:

how to go about breaking peoples' sense of entitlement when it comes to stuff online. That is, the feeling that there's no such thing as stealing porn, stealing content, stealing software, so forth.

It seems that with any intangible product (being music, videos, software, and stuff that you can't actually have sitting before you and touch) there's this sense that you're entitled to do all you can to get it for free. I see on discussion boards all the time people openly talking about how they'd never buy software or pay for a site membership because they can get it all for free (through p2p and hacked memberships/videos).

You never hear people sitting around talking about how they're all perfectly entitled to walk in to a store and grab whatever they want and walk out the door because they have no desire to pay for it. We universally recognize such types as thieves. But when it comes to non-physical products online, there's still a big culture of entitlement to such things.

A porn fan would probably immediately recognize that it was wrong and illegal to walk in to a brick and mortar porn store and steal a basket of DVDs. But take those DVDs, rip them, and post them online and that same person's ethics will change entirely, and they'll feel like they have every right to acquire the digital copies.

How would you suggest that culture be broken?

Hi I am new here but could not help but put in my two cents. I think this is about morality. People have become desensitized to what stealing is. Employees often feel it is not stealing to misrepresent time worked, or to take the stickies and paperclips home. People no longer feel it is stealing to engage in file sharing or copying of movies, music etc. How many people go back to a store and give back the excess change given by the sub par person at the cash register? Morality is not something to impose and should be our own personal endeavor first. Then do things to shift the moral tone of people around you and with whom you interact in business.