Are Hot Desert Knights models are getting younger (20s) and more clean cut?

Just noticed that in some of their latest releases the guys are in their 20s and kind of college jock type buff guys.
They look more clean cut now, to me.

In their older movies the guys tended to be 40 something and rougher around the edges.

Do you think this is intentional, like that's what the market is demanding more of, or do you think thats just the models that have been coming in lately for shoots?

I'm asking because im putting together some daddy and bearish type sites but if theres way more demand for the clean cut kinds of guys then I might rethink my strategy here, lol

Yes and it's disappointing. Xstr8guy and I have been asking for more older and hairier guys, but they keep putting out more of their Euro boy stuff. And they're hot, too. But HDK/GAP is drying up as a source for mature men, leather men, and hairy guys. There's still lots to buy, but if you've been buying it all along, like Jim and I have, the pickings are getting thin.

I wish Hot Desert Knights would get back to their roots. They were the best.

Michael

I second that.

Hopefully Bill will swing by to address this question. But until then, let me give you my perspective.

I have a long history with Hot Desert Knights. I've pretty much based my entire mini-empire on HDK/GAP men like Will West and Steve Parker. Bill Gardner is a GOD to me and great mentor. I love you Bill!

I got involved with them when i first started in the business. I was promoting a sponsor that was illegally using content from HDK. The sponsor provided content to it's affiliates. I used some of that content to build a couple AVS sites. Bill contacted me and told me to remove all of his content from my AVS sites. I was scared shitless!

That's not a great way to start a relationship, lol. But Bill was very understanding of my situation and decided to work with me. He allowed me to purchase content from them way before they opened up GayAdultPhotos.com... heck, I think that was even before HotDesertKnights.com opened up it's membership site. At the time, the only legitimate bareback sites were my AVS sites and bareback.ca. (I think, although I may be wrong).

In the early days, Bill was (I think) at the center of all of the action... even to the point of filming a lot of the action. I believe it's a matter of public record that HDK got it's start by filming their own personal play parties and it grew from there. Also they were based in Palm Springs... the center of the daddy universe.

Bill and his partner relocated to the east coast a year or 2 ago. And that's when the focus shifted to Euro types of men. I think HDK must be outsourcing a lot of their movie shoots to European videographers. This has made it kind of difficult for me to continue in my current niches. GAP used to frequently update with new hairy/mature models. Man, it was great... new hot hairy daddies every week!

To adapt to the content released by GAP since, I've had to adjust. I still use a lot of GAP content but my niches have expanded to include the younger Euro models. The Euro guys have their own charm... big uncut cocks, hard smooth bodies and exotic european faces. And for the most part, I've adjusted without chasing away my original surfers. However, I've had to pursue content from other sources to continue with the hairy and mature niches.

My $.02, you can't go wrong by using any of GAP's content. It's still under-used compared to Ounique and MaxPixels. They continually update more often than the other 2 content brokers. And everyone at GAP is a pleasure to work with.

I am glad they can get as young as they want, twink content now days really is main stream, I have them in my site, and yes was glad to see younger guys. I think it had to do with their Fratmen feeds being the #1 traffic generator for them!

Mind you im not complaining, I'm just seeing which way the wind is blowing.

I remember PRSimon had videos and they were the only game in town (as far as I could see). But they went out of business or are trying to sell it or something.
McKey made like 5 videos then stopped. Treasure Island had some gruffer older men in their early videos but now its all about the smooth tight bodied 20 year olds.

So I dont know what the truth is on daddy/bear/gruff men content. Does it sell or not?

I mean if McKey only made a few videos and PR Simon closed shop and Paul Morris and HDK may not be concentrating on it as much as before then what does it say about that niche?

I am sure some people can make living off of it, but its a ken to Asian content in my book “common and hard to sell” The gay market is very youth oriented, now if you put some bears with some young twinks then I think you will have something to sell.

and what happened to http://www.gruf.com/ ?

bearscans brisbane is still there but it looks like the exact same guys I saw back in 1997 http://bsb.org/
http://www.topbear.com looks exactly the same as before, no new guys in years.
http://www.manhaven.com/ is gone now
http://bear.net/ down
www.woofwatch.com gone

jeez, these sites should be ROCKING with activity and sales and new content since theyve been up since the early days and cater to more older/bear/amateur gay men.

Are bear surfers just cheap or something and dont buy?

well like this guy http://www.amateurdanou.com/vidscum.html he is giving way his videos for free, bear stuff is hard to sell or even for this guy to give away. For most guys if you want to see a bear or hook up with one its not that hard, adult sites are about fantasy and what’s out of a persons reach in real life. That’s what I think people will pay for, hell even most bears like twink content, but the same can not be said for twinks. BTW twinks online normally are broke anyway. All of this is just my option of course. :kelly:

All this said someone has to make bear sites, but its not main stream enough for a major feed company to specialize in it.

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Originally Posted by maxpower

well like this guy http://www.amateurdanou.com/vidscum.html he is giving way his videos for free, bear stuff is hard to sell or even for this guy to give away. For most guys if you want to see a bear or hook up with one its not that hard, adult sites are about fantasy and what’s out of a persons reach in real life. That’s what I think people will pay for, hell even most bears like twink content, but the same can not be said for twinks. BTW twinks online normally are broke anyway. All of this is just my option of course. :kelly:

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well thats just some guy, you cant use that as an argument, as there are tons of people giving away porno of themselves for free, for kicks.
Hell, look at MySpace.

Im not just talking about Bear, because HDK didnt have really bears in their early videos. Im talking about that whole range of daddy type men, or hairy men, or guys who look a little rough around the edges.

I think there is a market for this. I think there are a ton of guys who would rather have sex with a hairy truck driver or a tattooed bricklayer then some gum snapping 18yo.

Im just suprised these early sites that were once so popular now appear either stagnant or gone.
So maybe I'm totally wrong on this.

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Originally Posted by Marc

well thats just some guy, you cant use that as an argument, as there are tons of people giving away porno of themselves for free, for kicks.
Hell, look at MySpace.

Im not just talking about Bear, because HDK didnt have really bears in their early videos. Im talking about that whole range of daddy type men, or hairy men, or guys who look a little rough around the edges.

I think there is a market for this. I think there are a ton of guys who would rather have sex with a hairy truck driver or a tattooed bricklayer then some gum snapping 18yo.

Im just suprised these early sites that were once so popular now appear either stagnant or gone.
So maybe I'm totally wrong on this.

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Maybe your right I guess their are some people like that for sure, "BTW that guys pics came from this site" but apparently they are allot less likely to buy content, maybe they have all hit 65 now and don’t care about sex anymore LOL or the market is filled with more effeminate viewers that are less likely to take a chance on adult sites who knows man. Live and let live if people want to make Bear sites more power to them, I would really prefer if every one but me would stop making twink sites at all :)

This is not 100% on topic but as I look at it the age thing goes

18-20 Teen Boys
20-26 Twinks
24/28 Frat boys
26-35 Jocks
35+ Bear/men

Some over lap but that’s about right in my book

The bear niche sucks. It doesn't sell at all. I would concentrate on twinks.

:noddy:

Michael

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Originally Posted by Dzinerbear

The bear niche sucks. It doesn't sell at all. I would concentrate on twinks.

:noddy:

Michael

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I agree, twink is where its all at, leave those less common and micro niches alone they really dont sell.

Regards,

Lee

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Originally Posted by maxpower

This is not 100% on topic but as I look at it the age thing goes

18-20 Teen Boys
20-26 Twinks
24/28 Frat boys
26-35 Jocks
35+ Bear/men

Some over lap but that’s about right in my book

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Glad I don't read your book... and yeah those other niches don't sell worth shit..

Gee maxpower, where have you been all of my webmaster career? I had no idea I should only be making tons of twink and teen sites (aren't they the same thing?).

The gay world does not revolve around whatever you say it does. That's a small-minded attitude. You are correct that gay culture is youth oriented but so is all of american society. But that certainly doesn't mean that there is no demand for anything other than youth.

There are billions of people in the world and only 3-10% are gay. According to your logic, we shouldn't even bother making gay sites at all. Why bother with only 5% of the market when we could all make straight sites and capture the other 95% of the market?

Why don't I bother with twink and straight sites? Because I would rather focus my attention on something I enjoy and understand. And that doesn't include twinks. I can sell mature, hairy, bear, leather, etc. sites all day long. I couldn't sell the best twink site in the world with 1,000,000 hits a day. However, I could sell a crappy bear paysite with a 10 year old Chris Steele photoset from Ounique on my fake TGP that gets about 200 hits a day

maxpower, I would appreciate your opinion more if you only tried to discuss things that you really know about. You have become a very active member of this board and I'm sure you have something of value to add. But please, for everyone's sake, try to restrain yourself from spouting off about things that you know absolutely nothing about. Please!

Thanks. My $3.50

I don’t have any problem with you making bear sites, or anything else you want trust me man, in fact I wish more people did. No one lessons to me, I never claim to be some kind of gay messiah. I was just talking about Hot Desert Knights and other feed companies going to younger content, and why they might be doing so. Sorry if I made you mad was not my intent

Don't let them get to you man, I was lessoning to you.

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Originally Posted by JustBryce

Don't let them get to you man, I was lessoning to you.

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lysdexia? ;)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by JustBryce

Don't let them get to you man, I was lessoning to you.

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Ha Ha I know your joking but its just nice to talk to people that even know what I am talking about sometimes that is, even if they don’t agree with me

Unless someone does a very in depth study of the market and what sells (and I am not sure you actually could since there soooo many variables) no one can really say that X sells better than Y. I agree that you should make sites in the niche that personally TURN YOU ON...if you make a site that YOU would buy...a tour that would motivate YOU to get YOUR credit card out then you will make MORE MONEY than if you simply try to build a site that you think will be popular.

In my case that is 18 - 22 year old LATINOS...they really turn me on so that is what I concentrate on. Sure, it's a micro niche within the twink niche and ethnic niche...perhaps I have limited my potential customers BUT it's what I enjoy and I think I can therefore SELL it very well.

Lee

bear traffic sent to a quality bear site sells MUCH better than twink. it's true that there is a lot more twink traffic, but i make more money with bear than twink every time, whether we're talking about gallery traffic, avs traffic or search engine traffic.

in fact, till last june 22 my best selling niche after muscle was grandpas. there is no paysite for that around, so i made a premium avs site of guys 55 - 70. it had incredible conversions - and that's not just about gay. i had a site for years called "grandma's hairy pussy". it was all unshaved women 45 - 70 and was one of my all-time best selling str8 niches.

maxpower, feeds have nothing to do with sales or niche success. guys who make feeds want to get the most webmasters to buy, not surfers. so while having more twink and teen feeds could mean that more webmasters have twink sites, it doesn't mean they're making more money or better sales. i know plenty of guys with twink sites who have to work a day job to pay the bills - but they have all the regular feeds.

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Originally Posted by basschick

my best selling niche after muscle was grandpas. there is no paysite for that around.

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check out older4me.com
exclusive content and has a good members area

My 2 cents:

It seems that with the number of people on the internet, it's likely that ANYTHING will sell (let's not forget the guys-breaking-balloons site) if you can find the traffic for it.

Hell, if you happen to have the only guys breaking balloons site, or the only twinks eating ice cream naked while wearing a Mickey Mouse hat site, and you can find the traffic, you can probably find 1000-2000 people throughout the Web universe that will want to see that content.

Twinks might be "lowest common denominator" (I think even that is debateable) but I think one can do extremely well with other areas, provided one has the traffic.

We'd do bear sites in a heartbeat if we understood the niche and had the traffic to feed it... who knows, maybe it will be on our project list for 2007? :)

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Originally Posted by basschick

bear traffic sent to a quality bear site sells MUCH better than twink. it's true that there is a lot more twink traffic, but i make more money with bear than twink every time, whether we're talking about gallery traffic, avs traffic or search engine traffic.

in fact, till last june 22 my best selling niche after muscle was grandpas. there is no paysite for that around, so i made a premium avs site of guys 55 - 70. it had incredible conversions - and that's not just about gay. i had a site for years called "grandma's hairy pussy". it was all unshaved women 45 - 70 and was one of my all-time best selling str8 niches.

maxpower, feeds have nothing to do with sales or niche success. guys who make feeds want to get the most webmasters to buy, not surfers. so while having more twink and teen feeds could mean that more webmasters have twink sites, it doesn't mean they're making more money or better sales. i know plenty of guys with twink sites who have to work a day job to pay the bills - but they have all the regular feeds.

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Well I was just glad they where making more of the feeds that fit into what I am doing is all. I know it is really hard to make-it, luckily I have been making twink sites for years and have a regular viewer base

I dont know how this turned into an exclusively "bear" thread, that wasnt the origional intent, lol

I just dont get how some of these companies (pr simon, hdk, etc etc) who were all masters of this kind of different daddy/bear/rugged men content would steer away from it when there seems to be such a huge demand for it

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Originally Posted by Marc

I dont know how this turned into an exclusively "bear" thread, that wasnt the origional intent, lol

I just dont get how some of these companies (pr simon, hdk, etc etc) who were all masters of this kind of different daddy/bear/rugged men content would steer away from it when there seems to be such a huge demand for it

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Well you know what I think man, its really not that popular or profitable :roadie: I few years ago Hunk or Stud content was mainstream now I think twink content has taken its place, but what the hell do I know.

it's a lot easier to find younger athletic models. that could be a factor. also they might want to cross some niche lines and sell to more markets. maybe they have a new director who likes a different type of guy.

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Originally Posted by Marc

I dont know how this turned into an exclusively "bear" thread, that wasnt the origional intent, lol

I just dont get how some of these companies (pr simon, hdk, etc etc) who were all masters of this kind of different daddy/bear/rugged men content would steer away from it when there seems to be such a huge demand for it

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I review for Hot Desert Knights, and honestly am enjoy the new look. No I am not saying there is anything wrong with the models they have before. But if a studio continues to use the same stereo typed model don't they become stagnate after a while.

I just did a review on a euro based video called "Backseat Butt Fuckers", and found it rather good. A few flaws here and there, but over all pretty good. But then you got to remember when one does reviews it's based on their opinion and their opinion alone. I'm not defending HDK, just explaning my view is all

Marc

I don't know, Bel Ami and Falcon haven't seemed to have gotten stale, neither has Titan, and they're all pretty much sticking to their formula.

Michael

Oh I didn't say stale. But isn't variety the spice of life. It's nice when a studio changes around their models base once in a while is what I meant. I mean come on you wouldn't want to put in a DVD and sit there and just say, ok seen it before. Anyway you look at it, Youth Does Sell, and you have to supply the buyers market.

Marc

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Originally Posted by Dzinerbear

The bear niche sucks. It doesn't sell at all. I would concentrate on twinks.

:noddy:

Michael

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LOL!!!

Maxpower I've never met a bear that prefered looking at Twinks. Any that I know go running in the opposite direction.

Back to HDK thread -- I was kind of surprised to find out that they were branching out to other types of models. LOL maybe surprised is a little strong. Maybe the type of model they originally based their work on is becomming extinct? I don't know.

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Originally Posted by robin

Maybe the type of model they originally based their work on is becomming extinct? I don't know.

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Ya just like the woolly mammoth, soon they will all be extinct! Thax global warming :sun:

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Originally Posted by robin

LOL!!!

Maxpower I've never met a bear that prefered looking at Twinks. Any that I know go running in the opposite direction.

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Well when I go on gay.com they all come out of their caves and try to maul me? I can only speak to what I experience. I think it might be like overweight people saying they hate skinny/in shape guys, just to make their options sound by choice not necessity. I well add an apogee as well I know that was a bit harsh :argue:

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Originally Posted by Gay Porn Corner

I review for Hot Desert Knights, and honestly am enjoy the new look.

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Well I have also been wondering what's been going on at HDK as well. But it's been different. I'm not talking about the imports from the Czech Republic. I was in Houston about two months ago at a location where I had the opportunity to see World's Hungriest Cumhole Contest, which I had not really laid eyes on in some time. Pretty good, and then I recalled thier other titles like Barebacking Boys, Boy's Club, or the unforgettable Chocolate, Cream and the Fucking Machine.

My probelm is that the movies I have received lately from them are movies like the dreaded Sex Party Guys DVDs which I have found very difficult to appreciate. In other words, I rather liked their original California produced movies, and I do think there is plenty of room for recreating such spirit in future titles.

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Originally Posted by Gay Porn Corner

I just did a review on a euro based video called "Backseat Butt Fuckers", and found it rather good. A few flaws here and there, but over all pretty good. But then you got to remember when one does reviews it's based on their opinion and their opinion alone. I'm not defending HDK, just explaning my view is all Marc

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Thumbs up on the movie. Thumbs down on the name.

But then the movie is about sex in cars.... something you haven't seen since David Cronenberg's riveting movie Crash with James Spader !

Steve

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Originally Posted by maxpower

Well when I go on gay.com they all come out of their caves and try to maul me?

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The guys on gay.com arent bears though.. They are desperate, there IS a difference :)

Regards,

Lee

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Lee

The guys on gay.com arent bears though.. They are desperate, there IS a difference :)

Regards,

Lee

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Your probably right, but that’s my only experience with guys like that, normally in the clubs that I go to their are not very many of them and they are a bit hesitant.

I think that it's possible that HDK has started shifting to shooting out of California and the USA because of the issue they have been going through concernng the tax status treatment of models they were using in California. A decision made against them made it very clear that models could not be 1099'd as contractors, but had to be treated as employees, and thus, all the associated paperwork, taxation, and additional contractural obligations it placed on HDK made it more attractive to outsource to other states, and countries.

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Originally Posted by tombarr

but had to be treated as employees...

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There we go -- now that's probably bang on the money. Soon as you have to treat ppl as regular employees that starts getting; well expensive, tedious, onerous, beurocratic, etc...