How can AVN woo us back?

I never got much out of the AVN shows themselves. They seemed to be an excuse for everyone to gather in one place. And of course, it was meeting old friends and making news ones and business contacts that made the show. But the shows themselves: registration is disorganization and hard to find, signage is unclear, it's a 40,000 mile hike from your room to the show, the seminars are the same year after year, the show floor is abyssmally boring. And August's show is at a Westin Diplomat Hotel (This is a smoke-free hotel. Breathe Westin(TM)) how is that going to go over with the porn crowd? And of course there are the rumours that there's not even going to be a show in Vegas in January.

So, what do you think AVN needs to do to woo us back to their events?

Michael

Forgive my ignorance but are the AVN events a poor experience just for the gay sector or is it the straight sector too? If the straight sector is thriving, they may not see a need to change things.

unless i'm remembering wrong, the first thing avn needs to do is stop holding their events simultaneously with other events. taking people away from another event is sort of like stealing traffic.

I doubt that we will ever be attending another AVN event. The shows have turned into an excuse to party rather than an event where we go in order to network or attend seminars to learn new things or re-learn things we've forgotten.

Traffic, expensive rooms, excessive costs, long travel times, confusion, lack of quality seminars, etc., etc., just makes the event less and less desireable each year. Unless, of course, you just want to go to a very expensive party.

Bill

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Originally Posted by Dzinerbear

August's show is at a Westin Diplomat Hotel

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Two years in a row, we went to the Diplomat and the hotel's service was so abysmally bad both years, I finally filed a formal complaint with corporate and said, in so many words, they needed to fire the general manager. I got a call from him, but didn't let him off the hook. I'm guessing it will be more of the same this year.

As for the conference itself... 2005 was better than 2004, but so sparsely attended that it's hardly worth going, and this year, I keep hearing that NOBODY is attending.

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And of course there are the rumours that there's not even going to be a show in Vegas in January.

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Straight from Chad Beecher at AVN, that isn't a rumor. He says there will *not* be an Internext in Vegas in January, but that they *might* have one at some other time of the year, and/or in a different place.

I've heard rumors of a collaboration between AVN and somebody else on a new trade show for gay webmasters (this in addition to Gay Phoenix Forum) but no details yet.

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So, what do you think AVN needs to do to woo us back to their events?

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A. Price things more reasonably. CCBill manages to get enough sponsors to provide free food/drinks, excellent conferences, great resources, and webmasters pay nothing except their hotel bill. AVN could learn from this.

B. Don't hire lowest-bid fast food rejects to handle registration. Spend the extra 50 cents an hour and get people who aren't 800 years old, and can type and process registrations quickly and efficiently.

C. Scrap the entire seminar format and start from the ground up. Don't use any of the same people (except, perhaps, the attorneys) Come up with new topics.

D. Have someone that ACTUALLY KNOWS HOW TO MODERATE moderating the seminars to prevent one or two blowhards from monopolizing the topic.

Or, a shorthand way of saying this:

Hire CCBill to run your shows.

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Originally Posted by boyfunk

Two years in a row, we went to the Diplomat and the hotel's service was so abysmally bad both years, I finally filed a formal complaint with corporate and said, in so many words, they needed to fire the general manager. I got a call from him, but didn't let him off the hook. I'm guessing it will be more of the same this year.

As for the conference itself... 2005 was better than 2004, but so sparsely attended that it's hardly worth going, and this year, I keep hearing that NOBODY is attending.
We are going, because we have movies to promote. Not sure about getting a booth, though.


Straight from Chad Beecher at AVN, that isn't a rumor. He says there will *not* be an Internext in Vegas in January, but that they *might* have one at some other time of the year, and/or in a different place.
I always said they should switch Florida and Vegas around... so that we get nice warm weather in Florida come January (instead if suffereing through hurricane season in August) and nice Las vegas heat in August, instead of rain and the cold and occasional snow that we get in January.

I've heard rumors of a collaboration between AVN and somebody else on a new trade show for gay webmasters (this in addition to Gay Phoenix Forum) but no details yet.


A. Price things more reasonably. CCBill manages to get enough sponsors to provide free food/drinks, excellent conferences, great resources, and webmasters pay nothing except their hotel bill. AVN could learn from this.
Well put. I spend thousands on Internext every six months and it barely gets me any return business. Just an expensive way to show your face.

B. Don't hire lowest-bid fast food rejects to handle registration. Spend the extra 50 cents an hour and get people who aren't 800 years old, and can type and process registrations quickly and efficiently.
Try having 5-6 models lined up for registration with the type of person you described... Las Vegas was a nightmare.

C. Scrap the entire seminar format and start from the ground up. Don't use any of the same people (except, perhaps, the attorneys) Come up with new topics.
I even question using the attorneys... it's been the same "booga booga they're gonna GETCHA so hire us before they come-a-knockin" crap for the 4 years I've been attending. That's why I shoot movies instead of going to the seminars

D. Have someone that ACTUALLY KNOWS HOW TO MODERATE moderating the seminars to prevent one or two blowhards from monopolizing the topic.

Or, a shorthand way of saying this:

Hire CCBill to run your shows.
YAY FOR PATRICK!!

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Comments listed above in white font...

:-P

Rocky

No one has commented on Westin's no smoking policy (the entire hotel is non-smoking). How do you think this will go over with our crowd.

Cheers
Michael

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Originally Posted by Dzinerbear

No one has commented on Westin's no smoking policy (the entire hotel is non-smoking). How do you think this will go over with our crowd.

Cheers
Michael

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It's going to kill the crowd. I wasn't going anyway, but as a smoker, I refuse to stay in a place that believe they have the right to infringe on my rights.

Bill

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Originally Posted by hdkbill

It's going to kill the crowd. I wasn't going anyway, but as a smoker, I refuse to stay in a place that believe they have the right to infringe on my rights.

Bill

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Bill,

Don't you live in California (at least part-time)? And hasn't California been smoke-free in public places (bars, restaurants, etc) since 1994?

Rocky

The Westin has always been a non-smoking hotel, certainly for the last 3 years anyhow $0.02

Regards,

Lee

Yeah, I think that CCBill would do a nice job of running the event.

They really know how to manage and plan an event...those Networking Guides they published for the Phoenix Forum are sensational and a handy tool too! (we like handy tools)

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Originally Posted by EonFilms_Rocky

Bill,

Don't you live in California (at least part-time)? And hasn't California been smoke-free in public places (bars, restaurants, etc) since 1994?

Rocky

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Hi Rocky,

Yes, I live in California part time and in Delaware the rest of the year. Oddly enough both states have identical laws and that really doesn't bother me. But the laws do not apply to large hotels generaly over 25 or 30 rooms. So it bothers me if a hotel chooses to go completely non-smoking. It is, of course, their choice, but I then can choose where to spend my money.

Last time I went to the Westin it was non smoking in all public areas and I have no problem with that as I respect the rights of others. But, when I am in my room and I'm paying for it, I should be able to smoke in it if I choose to. Whether it is a room for one night, or my home, it is my "castle" and the choice should be mine.

Bill

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Originally Posted by hdkbill

Hi Rocky,

Yes, I live in California part time and in Delaware the rest of the year. Oddly enough both states have identical laws and that really doesn't bother me. But the laws do not apply to large hotels generaly over 25 or 30 rooms. So it bothers me if a hotel chooses to go completely non-smoking. It is, of course, their choice, but I then can choose where to spend my money.

Last time I went to the Westin it was non smoking in all public areas and I have no problem with that as I respect the rights of others. But, when I am in my room and I'm paying for it, I should be able to smoke in it if I choose to. Whether it is a room for one night, or my home, it is my "castle" and the choice should be mine.

Bill

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So smoke in it. What are they going to do... kick you out? They will be making so much money off of this damn thing that they will turn the other cheek.

There was an instance two years ago when Karl & Morgan had a party in their room. There were naked boys running around all over the place. Some hotel patron (not there for internext) walked by the room's open door and saw some nude boys mingling with the crowd of gathered webmasters and called hotel management to complain. The cops were called and otel management became involved.

A few words were exchanged from Chad Beecher to the management of the Westin and the situation was suddenly overlooked and the party resumed.

For the millions of dollars the Westin receives when we arrive for our three days in August (from the price of the convention halls & rooms to food & drinks), I am sure they will overlook a little smoke in a room... I know you wouldn't be the only one who would smoke in their suite.

Rocky

Rocky,

Yeah, I remember hearing about that party. If we decided to come, which is unlikely since I really don't think the costs can be justified for what little business we'd get from the event, we'd stay at one of the Gay Guest Houses that appreciates our business.....and has a sling room set up:yeah: Much more fun!

For the cost of attending I can run 6 months of full page ads in the Adult Store Buyer and get a much better bang for my buck.

But, if you go....have a blast!

Bill

Personally I never stay at the Westin. I just go and hang out at the pool and socialize or shoot some models in between checking out the convention floor or hanging out at our booth. I usually stay at a Holiday Inn or some other affordable hotel where the cost of a week's stay is as much as one night in the Westin.

This year I have to go... we are promoting our new movie(s) and need to be seen.

Rocky

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Originally Posted by EonFilms_Rocky

Personally I never stay at the Westin. I just go and hang out at the pool and socialize or shoot some models in between checking out the convention floor or hanging out at our booth. I usually stay at a Holiday Inn or some other affordable hotel where the cost of a week's stay is as much as one night in the Westin.

This year I have to go... we are promoting our new movie(s) and need to be seen.

Rocky

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Well now....if we had an opportunity to see ALL of you, would be worth the trip you sexy thing!:D

Good luck with the new movie!

Bill

I dont attend the shows, but what I've heard similar complaints on the straight side about Internext/AVN in Vegas. Way to big, too many fans and total chaos.

I understand having the contract girls & boys signing for hours on end is a great way to interact with the fans and generate attention, but it seems to make it one huge clusterfuck from the pictures I've seen - and not very condusive for business.

however, I get the feeling that a lot of people just got as an excuse to see people in other parts of the biz, party and promote their companies. Also the straight companies have the AVN awards then and since many are involved in both online and traditional sectors of the business, maybe its like killing two birds with one stone....

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Originally Posted by Xstr8guy

Forgive my ignorance but are the AVN events a poor experience just for the gay sector or is it the straight sector too? If the straight sector is thriving, they may not see a need to change things.

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That's a great point, and one I've thought about several times.

I know a considerable number of gay webmasters are not going this year - many being staples at previous Internexts and folks you see at most every show - but perhaps, on the straight side, everyone's still set to go en masse?

Maybe, as there are simply more of them, there are plenty more opportunities for straight webmasters to get stuff done and so the kinds of issues that kill it for us aren't ones that much matter to them.

I'd go if the plane tickets were not so damn expensive - for AOE-Europe it is almost heaper to fly to Bangkock for a week including hotel than going to Berlin - no shit here...

:develish:

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Originally Posted by DEVELISH

I'd go if the plane tickets were not so damn expensive - for AOE-Europe it is almost heaper to fly to Bangkock for a week including hotel than going to Berlin - no shit here...

:develish:

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And Bangcock would be a LOT more fun

I went to Vegas once. I have been to Phoenix twice now and plan on going every year. Considering they are both 10 hour flights for me that says something. CCBill do an excellent job and spoil me to the point where I don't see the point of the Vegas show again. Aren't xbiz doing a Vegas event in the summer? Maybe they will do it right. I might go to the Webmaster Access in Amsterdam later this year because it is somewhat close to me but other than that I think Phoenix is it for me.

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Originally Posted by DEVELISH
I'd go if the plane tickets were not so damn expensive - for AOE-Europe it is almost heaper to fly to Bangkock for a week including hotel than going to Berlin - no shit here...

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Originally Posted by HDKBill
And Bangcock would be a LOT more fun

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Although there is often a lot of banging and a lot of cocks here...it's BANGKOK. Or you can choose to call the city by it's real name of Krunthepmahornakorn if you are so inclined.

I don't know way people would think of Bangkok and suddenly forget how to spell. :honest:

As for AVN, I think they are making the right decision to move it to a different part of the year. I think they can keep in Vegas because everybody is used to that and it's kind of a tradition, but it would make it much, much easier on everyone if it's not held at the same time as the AVN awards.

Cheers,
D.

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Originally Posted by dannyz

Although there is often a lot of banging and a lot of cocks here...it's BANGKOK. Or you can choose to call the city by it's real name of Krunthepmahornakorn if you are so inclined.

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Sorry, I meant "Krungthepmahanakhon Amonratanakosin Mahintharayutthaya Mahadilok Phopnopparat Ratchathaniburirom Udomratchaniwet Mahasathan Amonphiman Awatansathit Sakkathuttiya Witsanukamprasit."

or

"The City of Gods, the Great City, the Residence of the Emerald Buddha Capital of the World Endowed with Nine Precious gems, the Happy City Abounding in Enormous Royal Palaces Which Resemble the Heavenly Abode Wherein Dwell the Reincarnated Gods, A City Given by Indr and Built by Witsanukam."

Don't laugh now, my mum had an exchange student for 2 days leaving the country early and he told us the real name ob Bangkok. I thought it was funny so I just memorized it *cough*

:develish:

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Originally Posted by dannyz

Although there is often a lot of banging and a lot of cocks here...it's BANGKOK. Or you can choose to call the city by it's real name of Krunthepmahornakorn if you are so inclined.

I don't know way people would think of Bangkok and suddenly forget how to spell. :honest:

As for AVN, I think they are making the right decision to move it to a different part of the year. I think they can keep in Vegas because everybody is used to that and it's kind of a tradition, but it would make it much, much easier on everyone if it's not held at the same time as the AVN awards.

Cheers,
D.

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I still like BANGCOCK, since I hear a lot of that goes on......and dislike attending a show in Las Vegas which is held at the same time as several other conventions thus making the experience miserable. Unless, of course, one truly loves crowds, inability to get a taxi, waiting for hours to eat in a restaurant and loves paying inflated prices for rooms.

And, why in the world would AVN choose to hold their Expo just a few day after the holidays. At that time most of us would like to relax a bit.

In any event we somewhat gotten away from the topic of the thread. As long as AVN chooses to hold their Expo at a time when the rates in Las Vegas are at their highest. As long as they choose to use the same tired, old speakers and moderators for their seminars (the attorneys excepted), as long as they continue to be disorganized and make the attendees stand in long lines and then walk like what seems miles from one area to the other, I doubt their is anything they can do to woo us back.

Bill

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Sorry, I meant "Krungthepmahanakhon Amonratanakosin Mahintharayutthaya Mahadilok Phopnopparat Ratchathaniburirom Udomratchaniwet Mahasathan Amonphiman Awatansathit Sakkathuttiya Witsanukamprasit."

or

"The City of Gods, the Great City, the Residence of the Emerald Buddha Capital of the World Endowed with Nine Precious gems, the Happy City Abounding in Enormous Royal Palaces Which Resemble the Heavenly Abode Wherein Dwell the Reincarnated Gods, A City Given by Indr and Built by Witsanukam."

Don't laugh now, my mum had an exchange student for 2 days leaving the country early and he told us the real name ob Bangkok. I thought it was funny so I just memorized it *cough*

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LOL, yeah I had memorized it too in when I took Thai language lessons a few years ago...I couldn't remember the whole thing though so thank you for the reminder heheheh

and yes, it is the longest name for a city in world. :D

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I doubt their is anything they can do to woo us back.

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Bill, I'll agree to disagree with you on that. Although I'll certainly admit Internext has it's problems, and I personally didn't go this last year, I did make business deals with people I met there in the past which resulted in thousands of dollars passing through different hands. It would have not been possible were it not for the great connections I made there. Yeah it is a big party, but I wouldn't really want to do business with anyone that I couldn't have a bit of fun with anyway.

If they change the timing of the event, and make it easier for us I'm sure a lot of people will still want to attend.

although a lot of people tell me you can't get anything done at internext, i know a guy who, at one recent show, hooked up:

1. a photographer for his sites
2. an excellent hosting deal
3. the opportunity to buy an active webmaster program
4. a programmer for his new sites
5. a stack of affiliates to promote his sites
6. some incredible custom plugin deals

i guess it's all about the way you network and how comfortable you are working a crowd of people that you mostly haven't met. this guy is never shy, never allows himself to be left out. most of us aren't like that, however.

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although a lot of people tell me you can't get anything done at internext, i know a guy who, at one recent show, hooked up:

1. a photographer for his sites
2. an excellent hosting deal
3. the opportunity to buy an active webmaster program
4. a programmer for his new sites
5. a stack of affiliates to promote his sites
6. some incredible custom plugin deals

i guess it's all about the way you network and how comfortable you are working a crowd of people that you mostly haven't met. this guy is never shy, never allows himself to be left out. most of us aren't like that, however.

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Basschick - you are absolutely right, it's all about how you go about it. The best thing is to try to schedule meetings and plan as much as you can in advance, get bitching business cards made, pick up as many biz cards as you can and really put yourself out there. I can't tell you how many deals, affiliates and contacts I have scored from there in the past, so don't think what happened with your friend is at all unusual. But I guess I"m someone who does well with (and prefers) face to face contact.

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Originally Posted by dannyz

Bill, I'll agree to disagree with you on that. Although I'll certainly admit Internext has it's problems, and I personally didn't go this last year, I did make business deals with people I met there in the past which resulted in thousands of dollars passing through different hands. It would have not been possible were it not for the great connections I made there. Yeah it is a big party, but I wouldn't really want to do business with anyone that I couldn't have a bit of fun with anyway.

If they change the timing of the event, and make it easier for us I'm sure a lot of people will still want to attend.

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Danny,

When I said I doubt their is anything to do to woo us back there I meant that personally. I dobut that AVN can do anything that will woo me back there or any of my employees.

I have no doubt that anyone who attends can make contacts with possible customers or providers. Their is no such thing as a bad trade show if you are willing to work it. But, one of the reasons I send my employees is so that they can attend the seminars and learn and unfortunately the seminars at AVN, with the exception of the legal seminars, have become very stale.

The timing of the event just sucks. Right after the Christmas and New Year's holidays when everyone has been traveling anyway to spend the holidays with family members, and after all of the expenses of the holidays, and then, during a traditionally slow period for internet sales, just combine to make it a very bad time. Add to that that is usually occurs during the giant CES show and the rates at the hotels in Vegas just skyrocket.

So, for our company, I just can't justify the expense for the returns that are possible. And, I would venture to say, that when considering operating ratios, and use your net profit before tax and multiply it times your operating ratio, it would be difficult for most companies to justify the expense. I know for a fact that if I spend $5,000 attending the show, I must generate a minimum of $150,000 in NEW business from the show just to pay for the show. Just isn't worth it to me.

For others, it may well be.

Bill

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When I said I doubt their is anything to do to woo us back there I meant that personally.

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Gotchya' Bill....I thought you were referring to the collective 'us' as the topic of thread implies. ;)

I do agree with your points and hope they change the timing of the event, that seems to be the most obvious step.

I will go grudgingly to Internext this summer--or maybe just go to Florida and hang out while skipping the show.
Oh, and since I hate making choices, I'll hit AOE next week and Bangkok again this year too [love me some dannyz hospitality!]

AVN really needs to make their shows convenient and affordable. I honestly don't give a shit about what is on the room service menu and I don't need to pay for the perfume scented halls of the Venetian. Give me a bed, a clean shower, a toilet, and a 5 shot expresso to start out the day and decent seminars and network opportunities and I will be there. Panelists For Life with Bad Attitudes [anyone who has gone to 2 or more shows and seen the same people on the same panels giving the same line of negative bullshit knows who they are] need to not be invited to speak on panels, no matter how many over-inflated egos are bruised. Panelists do not pay for passes. Attendees DO pay for passes. Attendees do not want to pay to hear how awful and scary everything is or how you cannot be in the {blank} niche if you aren't {blank} yourself. And speaking of passes, make them affordable. Fuck $250 per person. Keep it under $100 and get more people there. And make a discount pass available for non-seminar attendees so that studios can bring their models. Even Ron C. of CCBill complained about the need for "eye candy" at shows. Personally, I have never done anything with a model that earned me money so I could do without models at shows, but then a few attendees would tell me I could do without a pack of ciggies in my pocket 24/7 so I won't beat that drum.
AND--speaking of smoking!! This is a smoking crowd. I am sure they cannot possibly mean no lighting up outside. Or if they do, good fucking luck enforcing THAT. The Westin does have rooms with balconies so the smokers can have rooms with balconies but if they think for a moment I am not going to light up until I reach the sidewalk they had better be ready to make a scene.

AVN--listen to the attendees. Cost is important. REAL seminars are important. Good moderators are important. Networking is important. Fun activities like the Dodge Ball Tourney are important. This business is maturing and trade shows need to show value for the money spent. The Forum is growing and it is doing all of those things. Many companies, gay, straight and 'other' are staying away from Internext because of failure to listen to the people that go to shows. "We have always done it this way and we are the biggest so we can do what we want" was the motto of Montgomery Ward.

Great post Chad, although I do hate all you smokers that stink up my non-smoking room. ;)

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Originally Posted by hdkbill

If we decided to come, which is unlikely since I really don't think the costs can be justified for what little business we'd get from the event, we'd stay at one of the Gay Guest Houses that appreciates our business.....and has a sling room set up:yeah: Much more fun!

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I would absolutely reconsider my decision to attend Internext/Florida if there were more slings/sling rooms available at the facility.

The cigarette smoking is not really an issue for me.

Steve

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Originally Posted by dannyz

Great post Chad, although I do hate all you smokers that stink up my non-smoking room. ;)

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Danny dear, smokers don't light up in your room! You can keep that smoke-free. But we DO want to be able to smoke outside by the pool and at the open-air bar.

And Steve,

well,

I am just rolling my eyes at Steve......

:shifty:

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Originally Posted by desslock

I would absolutely reconsider my decision to attend Internext/Florida if there were more slings/sling rooms available at the facility.

The cigarette smoking is not really an issue for me.
Steve

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Sling room are always a good thing!

Last time we went, we stayed a week after the convention at INN Leather in Ft. Lauderdale. Plenty of slings in the rooms there and as they say, a good time was had by all.

Bill