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hi
I'm upset and sad at the same time
US defends secret money tracking
Bundles of US dollars Tens of thousands of transactions were scrutinised
US Treasury Secretary John Snow has defended a secret programme which has been tracking international money transactions for nearly five years.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/5110282.stm
DEVELISH
You know, nothing surprises me anymore. :(
BTW, nice new avatar, Develish! ;)
:yeah:Quote:
Originally Posted by DEVELISH
I feel somewhat vindicated as web hosts in non extradition countries, and more dubious people, have posted on these boards saying we're safe from certain U.S. laws in certain countries, don't have to pay taxes etc.
You can bet that all the info they continue to gather will be used in more ways then "fighting terror" as the war on porn is at the forefront of the cultural battle the world is engulfed in.
Anyone else have thoughts on this?
Just a quick side note...
Isn't it interesting that they've been doing this for five years and haven't caught the richest terrorist in the world Bin Laden?
Also interesting that Iraq is still unstable and Afghanastan and we can't cut the people off funding the terrorists?
Makes you really wonder what is going on and why America is the only country now priveledged to have this, usually secret, world view of international money transactions. :nowords:
Not depending any actions mentioned in the above posts but it isn't just the US that track these kind of things.
The Aussie government has for decades tracked transactions over 10K.
I agree it isn't right but I don't have anything to hide so if the US government want to track my SWIFT transfers (which I use for 90% of my accounts payable) then I couldn't care less - they are all listed in my company reporting requirements as it is.
Although if they didn't it would be easier to be a bad guy I suppose.
I didn't know that about the Australian government. I'm learning new things about Australia all the time. I'm American and have been here about 4 years now.Quote:
Originally Posted by davespeedoevans
We're not doing anything wrong but doesn't mean people can peer into every aspect of our lives.
When the police come knocking on your door will you tell them everything they want to know, or will you cooperate to an extent then call your lawyer?
The only difference here is nobody has any representation to make sure their rights are protected, and you don't even know if your rights are violated as nothing is disclosed.
I'm not a ciminal but everytime I travel I'm treated as if I am one doesn't that say something about where society has changed and where it's headed?
Here (Germany) its the same as in Aussi-Land - transfers greater then I think 12K EURO must be checked with Photo ID and you have to state where that money comes from.
Still - that's within my country going out to another one - so it's local law. I do not find this ok - but oh well...
What the US - no wait - the Bush administration did was tab into another continents banking information system without having proper legitimation to do so. Just because some texan Schmock said "hello, we are the US, resistance is futile - will be assimilated" is also no proper way of aproaching a company NOR is this "legitimatin" enough for handing over sensitive data.
I am also not amused of the data handling by SWIFT since Belgium has Dataprotection Laws and the EU has Dataprotection laws as well (you might have heared that the EU called the submission of passenger data flying over or to US terreroy illegitimate).
Why doesn't the Bush Administration disclose which "terrorists" they caught or how much money they froze (or assimilated into the war-funds)? They happily disclosed pictures of dead soldiers and terrorists eventhou this was against international rules. Oh yeah - It might be because the US took a step away from the Geneve Conventions which regulates treatments of humans in war. No Rules Apply....
Why can an administration rectify each and everything with "war on terror"?
In the US you have the right to remain silent, you do not have to tell them shit “and its a good idea not to” any thing you say can be used against you after all.Quote:
Originally Posted by Squirt
In the US we have the right to privacy as well as protections against unreasonable searches “with out really good reason and a warrant from a judge normally”
I do not know about Australia, but being a American I guess I assume most free countries have about the same rights, if not I might ask for them LOL
Well, you might be thrown to Guantanamo as a terrorist ;DQuote:
Originally Posted by maxpower
Don't ass-u-me, Planoboy :DQuote:
In the US we have the right to privacy as well as protections against unreasonable searches “with out really good reason and a warrant from a judge normally”
I do not know about Australia, but being a American I guess I assume most free countries have about the same rights, if not I might ask for them LOL
The US as well as many other countries in the world shift from being free to a be rather "controlled". Telecommunication surveillance, email reading, cams on public spaces and public transportation systems throughout the city, people tracking via cell-phones....
Would you have the balls to remain dead silent while the police (some "swat ligh" team) ram in your door, hold a gun to your face, slam you either on the ground, the wall or handcuff you or all of the above, sit you with your roommates on a table without the right to talk or go to the bathroom alone, without the right to call your legal assistant, search your whole apartement, read almost every document (including legal documents between you and your lawyers) before sacking them?
Yes I find it interesting that the EU is so big on privacy yet they let this happen without so much as a peep to let their citizens know it was going on.Quote:
Originally Posted by DEVELISH
They haven't disclosed any "catches" because their haven't been any significant ones I'm sure.Quote:
Originally Posted by DEVELISH
In 5 years using this "tool" they haven't caught Bin Laden. Just another neo conservative government taking away rights by using fear to scare people into submission. I'm seriously surprised that in the new millenium this has worked! They must all be smoking their cigars giggling at how much they've gotten away with and they are right, we've all turned into a bunch of whining sheep IMHO
Where have you been the past 5 years? We have NONE of those protections anymore. Haven't you heard? The Patriot Act revoke all of our civil liberties.Quote:
Originally Posted by maxpower
Develish,
Isn't it the EU where you can't book into a hotel with a passport?
That rule has been around for decades and don't tell me Interpol isn't tracking different things through that.
And there are no US Citizens in Guantanemo - bill sof rights prevents that. Kinda interesting to note that Australia doesn't have a bill of rights. I remember a law subject said that with a really corrupt Aussie govenment that legally rights could be taken away without legal recourse.
But I've got nothing to hide so if SWAT break down my door when I'm stateside, my lawyer and I will have nothing to worry about.
The more I travel and live overseas the more I realize that no government is perfect and all governments change the rules when they please... period.Quote:
Originally Posted by davespeedoevans
The point isn't whether you have something to hide or notQuote:
Originally Posted by davespeedoevans
The point is the repercussions of your rights being taken away.
To use your analogy... if the SWAT break down your door when you're stateside and answer to nobody what are the repercussions for you, an innocent man? 1) you have to pay for an attorney 2) damaged property 3) loss of income due to their seizure of your property 4) having your arrest on record ( surely if they are raiding you they wil arrest you ) 5) public embarrassment as neighbors see your house invaded and searched while you're escorted to a police vehicle 5) time in jail for no crime committed.
Do you understand where I'm coming from? Innocent people have a price to pay when their rights are slowly eroded and/or violated. All you need to do is look at the Chinese, N. Koreans, Russia the list goes on.
Have you ever been innocent of something and falsly accused?
I have and in the end you lose a LOT more then you think an innocent person would and when it's all said and done you have recourse but are you going to waste the next few years of your life entangled in a lawsuit to be reimbursed for what you deserve? See where I'm coming from?
I think you are going way overboard, I am not fan of Bush but all this American bashing is getting a bit old. Most of the people that bitch the most do not even have the same rights in their country to start with, maybe you should work on your own right in your home countries rather than falling into your politicians BS. Its easy to point fingers, but if you look close most all this is just the same crap that china says so its people don’t ask for more rights. Just my .02
http://www.3planesoft.com/img/flag_screen01.jpg
I for one am proud to be an American, All you from other countries know if you where in real trouble we would be the first to have your back!! :love: :love: :love: :love:
Maxpower - I'm with you all the way mate.
I'm not a fan of American bashing at all and believe me that being an American and living in Australia I get shit from everyone I meet because I'm American.Quote:
Originally Posted by maxpower
I think you're being oversensitive again regarding this post.
You need to remember that not only American was a part of monitoring the SWIFT transactions, many countries are :biker:
I am not a fan of Bashing Americans either - I am a fan of "Bashing Bush Administration", and I make a huge difference there.
From what I hear many many US American people are very unhappy with their president and can't wait until he's finally gone. Then the world has to wait what comes next.
I am also not only upset by what the USA do or do not do but also what my country comes up with bright ideas or the European Union as a whole (like saving telecommunication data for up to 2 years - including who calles whom, how long, from where, SMS-mails, internet connections (time and duration), IP addresses...)
Ya you guys are right I did go a bit far, but the American anthem was playing on TV when I said that :) I hate Bush too, but he’s a dead duck, its over for him I would really be shocked if he could accomplish even one more real thing in this whole term. In another couple of year we will have a new president to bitch about, “God I miss Clinton” its just the allot of the American people get really conservative in a time of war or attacks, but when this crap is relatively over, their will be a big backlash. Bush will go down in history as one of the worsted presidents we ever had, other than invading Iraq I think any president would do the same as him, if not more. Its just some people give him credit for just doing what anyone would do, hell even I would have gone into Afghanistan. When the attack first happen and we had air support in the area I as president would have been on the seen with in a few hours to reassure people, I know it would have been a bit of a risk but that’s part of the job. I would not have been running and hiding like that pussy did.
First of all, for the record, the government tracking financial records is not illegal. Sad to say, but we do not have very much financial privacy, particularly in the US. And that is not a "Bush Administration thing".... the IRS has a very long arm, which has gotten longer and longer following laws passed in the 1980s and 1990s.Quote:
Originally Posted by DEVELISH
As an example of US gov money tracking, if you go to a casino in Las Vegas, and spend over several hundred dollars, they take down your ID and social security number. (this does not happen in most other countries) Your income is tracked, numbered and reconciled.
Also, Squirt has expressed several times on GWW an outrage of the government tracking money wired from outside the United States. Well, for argument's sake - when you physically cross in the United States, you are asked if you have anything to declare, and that's includes the money you are bringing in. What's the difference?
So look -if you suddenly have a newfound outrage over this policy, I suggest that you examine the lifetime of granting such powers to the government for the past decades. Our country's system of progressive income taxes, capital gains taxes and death taxes, etc. enforced by the Internal Revenue Service will by defination mean that the government must relentlessly follow your financial life in order for it to collect its revenue.
(This is why replacing a progressive income tax with a national sales tax is a structural reform that which would significantly enhance financial privacy, which I've always supported)
Steve
I'm not outraged and haven't expressed my views on the government tracking money but for the first time, which has been in this thread.Quote:
Originally Posted by desslock
I would personally love to see you travel overseas Steve and constantly defend our country to people who've been the victim of us dominating the world in everything from Satelite communications, TV, internet and radio to computers and technology.
Back on topic: Saying everything is just as it has been for years, which is usually your argument on everything, is a cop out.
You stated "Sad to say, but we do not have very much financial privacy, particularly in the US. And that is not a "Bush Administration thing".... the IRS has a very long arm, which has gotten longer and longer following laws passed in the 1980s and 1990s."
Well your beloved Treasury Secretary John Snow said specifically that the program is not "data mining or trolling through the private financial records of Americans" so you're comparing apples to oranges.
This NEW program (since 2001) has no court approved warrants, or subpoenas to examine banking records but used a BROAD SUBPOENA to SEARCH records. This all is currently legal because of the BUSH ADMINISTRATIONS EMERGENCY POWERS granted in 2001. This IS a Bush administration thing, contrary to your previous statement that it's not. This administration answers to nobody on this program. There are no checks and balances.
Again, I'm not outraged. This is what extremely conservative administrations to do. I used to count myself as not really liberal or conservative, but since Bush has come into office I see myself more liberal these days. :king:
Well I think that this SWIFT program has debatable merits, and I emphasize the word debatable. I am not so sure this is all due to "Bush emergency powers." The United States has passed numerous money laundering laws
over the past twenty years... mostly in the name of tracking drug money.
The law requiring you ID and send a special form to the IRS if you spend more than $10,000 on anything (like buying a car) is the product of a late 1980s "reform" bill. Aggressively following the cash you spend in casinos is a product of the mid 1990s. We have been yielding lots of privacy to the US Dept of Treasury for years now. That is a consequence of the particular revenue tax system that they are obliged to enforce.
Now this all nicely skirts a reality, which is there is lots of cash sitting around in Saudi Arabia and other neighboring countries which gets zapped to places like London so that terrorists there can build their bomb supplies to blow up the Underground. Furthermore muslims move to France, the Netherlands, Denmark, etc, set up ghettos of sharia rule. Unlike typical ethnic immigrants moving to the US over the years, who leave home and stay in their new country, these people are different. For example, there are more direct airline flights from Oslo to Pakistan than to the United States. They maintain very strong financial links to their home countries. How should our Western governments respond to that?
For me, it's a complex question.
I live in Australia and have very strong financial links to the U.S. and the Australian government doesn't do anything about it because there is no need to, just as there's no need for the U.S. to see SWIFT transactions around the world for non U.S. citizens.Quote:
Originally Posted by desslock
Those of us who have nothing to hide should be concerned that "emergency powers" have been in place for 5 years which have eroded our rights and granted the government a system with no checks and balances. That's the main point we should focus on regarding this SWIFT situation, that and the fact that our foreign government has been sticking it's nose into non U.S. citizens banking matters which is unethical at the very minimum.
It's actions like these that are pushing our allies farther from our side and into a more neutral stance, as has been shown in recent months.
At the bare minimum can you concede that something doesn't have to affect you in a negative way in the immediate future to be wrong and/or unethical?
You do realize that when you have something, and it's taken away, that the other has more power, as they now have what you no longer do?
Our constitution was created by the people, for the people, not to control the people. Our constitution was created to grant us rights, not take them away. Our government is here to serve us, not put us in servitude.