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Was just wondering what everyone thought the single most damaging thing to the adult industry was to date?
Regulation? Laws? Processing? Content? Or something else?
Just curious to see what everyones opinion was on this after a conversation i just had.
Regards,
Lee
Personally I think its the devaluation of content, once you give content away for free what do you think its worth then too viewers? :penny:
Lee,
This is a good question. There are actually many factors. I will post when I actually have time to think about it.
My first response would have to be us webmasters ourselfs. We are our own worst enemy. I will explain on that later... :)
Online theft of content and free porn. Makes it hard to sell when people are giving it away for free! ;-)
Only way to battle FREE is to make really good original content that people want and then to protect it like hell.
We get coupons for free food/samples all the time. If you like it, when it's gone you buy more. Quantity of FREE porn is an issue. Theft of content can be a benefit.Quote:
Originally Posted by Titanmen
Protect it like hell? You mean disable the right click?
Over protecting content is one thing that is killing this industry...
Let's be honest with ourselves here.
If we can't build sites the surfers are willing to pay $30 a month to belong to what are we doing wrong?
Are our sites not good enough to warrant $30?
Well a lot are simply not, the worse thing that ever hit this industry was "Exclusive Amateur" content. It led to 1,000s of site owners shooting content themselves or getting some idiot to shoot it for them for peanuts. Plus sites without enough content to justify a months viewing. Unless your site contains 60 videos and 150 sets which are GOOD your site is not good value for a month.
The most damaging thing this industry ever did was to value affiliates above members, traffic above content.
When you value a busker giving away freebies at the bottom of the street more highly than the people paying his wages you do yourself, the customer and THE BUSKER a major disservice.
Why does this industry convert at 1 to 1,000? Because we have not got something 999 are willing to spend money on. Who's fault is that?
A huge threat is the internet's move towards user created content and the technology and sites that make it possible.
Porn sites used to bridge the gap between the beautiful people and those who lust over them. The new internet writes us out of the picture in that regard.
Nowadays though the use of MySpace you've got an unlimited number of hot people to contact directly. That's something most types of porn sites never even allowed.
That's not porn, but consider that even just 5 years ago you needed to be a webmaster to put stuff online. Not anymore. The emergence of digital cameras, webcams, blogs, free pic and video hosting, profile sites, social networks, etc... leave open the possibility that future development of these things could lead to self-produced adult material that does compete with the industry. In fact we are already starting to see it now.
Why should someone pay $6 a minute to watch a guy on F4F when there are hot guys on cam in Yahoo chat? And these guys are real, not cyber hustlers.
You don't need to join a single model site and pay $30 a month for his friendship when such guys are now easily found on MySpace.
This sort of stuff will never kill porn because of the production quality issue, but I think they can give us a serious hit down the road.
:cry: :cry: :cry: :cry:
Not to be offensive but you are a content provider and a str8 one at that, you “opinion” is mainly coming from the fact you what to sell your content and not have people make their ownQuote:
Originally Posted by Paul Markham
Talk about an opening. One might be tempted to say Maxpower here but I won't do that. Not me. Nope... me a good boy.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lee
I think in many ways it is what Paul alluded to in his post. We are placing a lot more emphasis on affiliates in place of customers and I would also say we are rushing to get sites out the door than taking our time in developing them with proper good content shot by those who know how. Some amateur might do okay, but for my money, the pro knows more and will be cheaper too without the added wastage an amateur would have.
Personally though I think what has damaged our business the most is not accepting that it is a business.
my 2 cents
So what do you see as a solution? Applying for a job at MacDonald's?Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt 26z
You could never compete with people who will give it away for free and if you think the Internet invented free porn and free sex you really are kidding yourself. Especially in the Gay arena. There has been bath houses where Gay guys could get all the free sex they want, yet Gay hookers have always earned a living. This also fits straight guys in 2006 and hookers still make money.
They dO it by giving something extra.
No offense but your statement said nothing. If you think I'm wrong tell us all. Are am I not allowed to be right because I'm straight and a content provider?Quote:
Not to be offensive but you are a content provider and a str8 one at that, you “opinion” is mainly coming from the fact you what to sell your content and not have people make their own
What I'm saying is "IF YOU CAN'T COMPETE WITH WHAT PEOPLE GIVE AWAY FOR FREE, GET OUT OF THE BUSINESS. IT'S OUTGROWN YOU."
The novelty of Internet porn has gone, it's now an accepted method of porn delivery. Spending on porn is still massive and I doubt if it's going down. But the Internet is now culling itself of a lot of sites that simply do not compete in 2006. If you want to be a survivor compete with what's for free by giving the end user a better deal.
That goes in the straight market as well as the Gay market.
paul, i like amateur content and i've seen some amateur sites out there that totally rock, not only because they are really REALLY sexy but also because i like they are entertaining. and i've seen plenty of sites get a good start with 20 movies and pic sets that retain like crazy - in gay or str8.
most sites are the same old niches, same old themes, heck - half the time they also have the same old models. i love creativity - sites like armpitlover.com and dirtyjason.com may not totally break the mold, but they both have ideas i haven't seen a million times. and that rocks!
I will tell you a solution but your not going to like it :) if the 10 or so gay content providers would start getting stricter about the images they let people use in free and avs sites that would go a long way or at least start turning some of this around. How about only allowing 50 images a set “normally the first 50” and only really low quality images be used in free and AVS sites, adding more value to our members sites. Now I know you will not like that cuzz it might mean less sales for you guy at the start, but if you ask me its a good way to keep your stuff fresh for us.
Why do you think people have to make their own content? I will tell you its because most of this studio content is way over exposed now. Hell with in less than a year I will have to start creating all my own content just because there is not enough of what I need and what you guys do have is over exposed. I really do not want to have to create my own content that is not my job as I see it, but what can I do, you guys can not provide me with enough good twink content to even fill a few sites. Most of the studios don’t even know what a twink is they think its any frat guy under 30.
As I look at it the greedy studios created most of this problem, and in the end are going to pay the price for it to.
Sorry I am in a bad mood its just with the holiday BS my bank is dicking me around
I have nothing against Amateur content, in fact made a fortune from it over the years. Why do people always assume I am talking about amateur when I say compete?Quote:
Originally Posted by basschick
The problem is Amateur on the Internet is often used as an excuse for bad.
Amateur means doing it for the fun, the thrill, personal goals, improving ones self without the prospect of financial rewards. When it comes to porn it means people fucking for the sheer hell of it, like a swingers party.
An "amateur porn" buyer is often looking for something to remind of him of the Girl/Boy Next Door, Readers Wives/Husbands or someone who will fuck for the sheer thrill of it. Some people try to use it to produce a fantasy of an Amateur shooter taking pictures/video of professionals. The professional models often look bored, detached and unfuckable.
Now there is nothing wrong with this fantasy, I've met hundreds of guys who would like my life, but they fantasize I fuck a lot of the models. Something some "Amateur" niche guys do not project. But again nothing wrong with this. Except it's over supplied.
The Law of Supply and Demand apply to the Adult Internet as they do to everywhere else. If a product is in an over supply situation related to the demand, sales suffer. I make a lot of money not because everyone wants to buy my style of porn, it's because few can shoot it.
Now you can all tell me how arrogant I am and flame me without showing where this post is wrong, but could you also point me to other non exclusive content providers who shoot like we do please.
We charge extra for people to use content on the free sites. Simple system if you want it for your paysite, or to submit yourself, and not saturated then the price is as seen. If you want to give it to 100 or what ever affiliates we want more money. The downside is few buy the extra license, the upside is those who do make more money because others are too tight.Quote:
Originally Posted by maxpower
But do you really think the content producers are so bad and greedy or that they are scraping to make a living?
Is there any shortage of Twink in the DVD market or magazine market? If the answer is no then you have your answer. The shooters are not making enough to tempt them over to the Internet.
Laws of supply and demand again.
Don't worry about it. I'm thick skinned or am I just dense? :penny:Quote:
Sorry I am in a bad mood its just with the holiday BS my bank is dicking me around
paul, don't get paranoid on me. i think you're one of the more involved photographers around and i've felt lucky to get to talk to you over the years about various things in our industry - truly. also i agree with a lot of what you are saying.
porn was bound to reach a new level. when i started on the web in 1996, there were probably less than 1/100th the number of webmasters. but there are also TONS more sponsor paysites, many with a twist you can sell. so why shouldn't marketing methods include free samples? heck, you can write to oil of olay or MANY other products for free stuff. TV shows on all non cable networks are free to watch just so you will watch the advertising. my daughter LOVES free stuff and the companies tell her they feel that even if she doesn't buy their products, the word about their products will still get out through her. why are so many people so sure this shouldn't apply to porn?
maybe the free porn samples aren't the problem - maybe the way they are used to market is the problem. there are zillions of guys i talk to on boards who can't make 1 sale every day using galleries - but all the time they were on all the boards saying tgp traffic is just plain bad, i was making money and sales every day. and i'm talking about through september 2005.
it's SO easy to say "well, there wasn't as much free porn around back in 1996 - that MUST be the problem". but it's sloppy thinking.
how many subscribers were unable to cancel their memberships back in the day, and learned not to trust paysites? how many even now discover that most of what they joined a site to see isn't really there, or is the smallest part of the site? how many have been upsold or mislead? come on, we're causing a lack of trust as an industry. many of the big programs have sites that don't even offer the core contant of their sites' niches. every time we get paid $30 for one of those sales, another member is being taught that paysites aren't going to give you what they promise.
we are taking guys with credit cards and teaching them that using them will lead to disappointment or worse. beyond those other issues, small blurry videos and small pic sets run rampant. sites pretending to be reality sites have regular old licensed porn.
i think our industry would be more successful if there were more sites like randy blue, corbin fisher and videobox/gayvideo box around. those are the sites teaching members not only to stay longer as members but also that it's worth pulling out their credit cards!
Ya man I am sure they are trying to do the best they can, but most studios do not have any restriction on the content at all. I am really not sure about the magazine stuff, but the DVD and videos of REAL twink content that is available to us is very limited. Its just when you start to talk about webmaster using exclusive amateur videos as a bad thing that got me, they too have not choice about it. Personally I really do not want to have to mess with creating content at all, but it is a must if you want your site to grow now days, and I am sure the first 10 or so I do will really suck too.Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul Markham
Its just a bad situation and blaming member site owners for the problems is not the way I would go, they have about the least control of any of this
No worries, not paranoid.Quote:
Originally Posted by basschick
We agree on so many things. Any industry that treats it's "Buskers" better than it treats it's customer is going to struggle winning over the customers to spend money. This hurts the Industry and all within it.
Buskers = people who give out free samples.
Who's ruining the business... could be free porn that's out there... could be lousy content... or just sloppy webmasters...
personally I think that this is ruining the business...
1. Producers doing 20 sloppy sites in 19 niches... and overcharging for access instead of delivering good, neat and hot site in one niche
2. Web site owners who take everyone for an affiliate, regardless if he sells 1 membership a day or 10... so why should I be treated the same as someone who is just overusing the same content but making no sales?
3. Photographers, who are totally unwilling to cooperate (not all), but I've dealt with 15 photographers in last 8 months and many of them have no clue what they are doing, or just don't reply (from 48 I've sent an email, I got reply from 18), regardless if you offer crazy amount of cash for a set. Or are just too uncooperative and think that 15 pics represent the set
4. There is serious lack of photo content on content sale sites and most of it is just plain average... who says I'm not willing to pay 100-200$ for a non-exclusive set if it's done bloody great? Same content on different photo brokers....
5. Gay LinkLists with their rules that just make even more content available for free
6. Sites that fuck with surfer, telling them they can join for free and in the small print it says "If you don't cancel in 2 days you will get billed 39.95" or something like that... (and there are many sites like this)
7. Big sites that charge big bucks and deliver photos in flash with a watermark at 300x400 resolution (falcon), videos that nobody can save...
Anyway... I'm still amazed that anybody buys memberships... I mean... personally site has to deliver something unique, daily driven for me to join, otherwise if I want to jerk off, I'd go to TGPS, see some pics, see some clips and that's it. Why pay 39,95 for 2 and a half minutes of pleasure?
so many good answers it would be hard to choose just one.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lee
jim
Not sure about your answer on the Twink in the DVD market. Are you saying it's not available to you on the Internet or not available in the shops?Quote:
Originally Posted by maxpower
The point I'm making is, is it available in the shops and you can't buy it for the Internet? And is the quality of what you get is lower than what's in the shops?
The answer could be you are not paying enough.
Is the level of supply in the Gay porn arena down to the returns the producers make from their product? Seems to me if they were making a fortune there would be a lot more of them supplying a better product and they could be a little more restrictive on their licenses.
If you ask me the best thing for all of us would be more resections on free content like only X content allowed for free “No Hard Cocks” and all XXX content must be password protected. This would still provide free stuff to make sales and not give away the farm too anyone with a internet connection.
But do I think this will happen NO, its just going to get worse and in 5 years if your not a photographer or have big bucks to pay your own you will be out of luck. :cry:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul Markham
Ya do not really know what goes on in the stores man, I really only know about what available online for use. To tell the truth I have never owned a gay DVD or what ever that did not have to do with my work. If their are so many good DVD’s and videos out their why not allow just to use at least some of the older ones? It would be cheap and pretty easy to do, but most of what we get is from Russia or something and kind of sucks. I don’t know at some point I was thinking their would be a whole world of content to chose from, but its not really how it is. Even the sites Bass talked about all have only exclusive content as far as I know.
No Clue = not professionals.Quote:
Originally Posted by Toni_Enzo
100-200$ = Work out the costs of production, and calculate the sales needed to return a profit at $150 a set. Now look at the other avenues open to a "bloody great professional" shooter. Will a set sell 20 times at $150 and return $3,000? Now take out the costs. Do you see why you are not getting the good product yet?
But you did make some very good points, now also look at what is being spent to get traffic? Not enough spent on product, too much spent on traffic and a lot of people conning surfers. All adds up to making it tough.
I think maxpower has answered the question.
I also find it amazing that someone selling a product is so unaware of the other methods of delivery for that product.
And why don't the DVD sellers let you have the old stuff? You don't offer them enough. Trust me they will sell if the price is right.
Credit card regulations, search engine consolidation would be up there on my list. Credti card regulations caused severe cosolidation in the collecting money part of the business... which was a bad thing for us and others because it severely choked our revenue streams and made making sales more difficult, however, that same action could be considered a good event because it forced many of those sites not willing to pony up and play fair to go out of business...
I think sites can still compete using free content. use old content as free content to market new exclusive content works well for us.
Lets not forget affiliates who join paysites just to steal all the content out of the members area and use it as their own.Quote:
Originally Posted by Toni_Enzo
Regards,
Lee
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lee
Yeah, I would too consider stolen content in general as the biggest damage one can do to the industry and in my opinion those are most inferiour people of your industry. Not only causing damage to the studios but also showing other not so bright people that stealing content is "ok". If a dumbass like this would steal my content I would hang him face down by his nutsack stapled against a wooden bar at the Taipeh 101's last floor.
Free (own or licenced) content out there is just a marketing thing - if you could produce something that costs nothing to reproduce why not give away a piece of it and see if they like the full deal? Microsoft does so with software when supplying schools - the kids get used to M$ products and later they buy a PC with M$ on the harddrive - this time paying for it.
0.02 €
DEVELISH
these days you can almost assemble a models complete photo shoot by visiting a couple of thumbnail galleries so what's the point of joining a site?
i agree there needs to be a tighter "reign" on content as well as restrictions on how the content is used ( first 20 pictures samples only/etc.) but that seems to be non-existent with some content providers interested in mass-sales.
i still believe "original/exclusive" photo/videography will "stand-out" , and regardless of how much "free-content" is out there will hold it's own in the adult marketplace.
sincerely ~ ..."you get what you pay for"...
As far as I am concerned, cheaters (webmasters, sponsors and members) are the most damaging - in essence, most of the changes forced upon us are the result of their actions.
(I can just hear the DUHs now.)
Free content is not enough of a threat, and I see it no differently from a movie trailer: the best parts are always given away, yet people still flock to the theatre or the video store.
This one is so easy to answer. The point of joining a site is to save time and not have to visit a couple of thumbnail galleries to download a poor selection of small compressed images. To get the videos in full length.Quote:
Originally Posted by longboardjim
But if you're saying that paysites don't offer the quality that a TGP site does then who's fault is it the surfer does not want to pay? A paysite should be offering 30 days of value for a 30 day membership fee. Say 50 videos and 100 sets minimum of couples and solo action.
As for this "original/exclusive" photo/videography will "stand-out" if any site owner can pick up a camera and shoot to my level then he really will be in the money. But if he's going to be learning photography and pornography while trying to manage models good luck to him getting any quality out. If it were that easy how come the content providers struggle? And just because a few exceptional guys can do it does not mean anyone can.
If he can compete with the guys who do it as a sole profession then I go back to my original stance, you are not paying them enough. Which thinking about it I think is the case. You have one guy who thinks it should be sold for a $150 a set, is that a set and video, or just a set. Yet does not want the set to be sold too often. Do the maths and work out the profit.
Paco AGREED. These guys have done more damage to this industry than anyone. And I include all those who thought they could put up a website that will make $1,000s for under $20K. Let down a member once and he will forgive you, let him down more than once and he will not.
the point of joining a paysite rather than going to galleries?
1. bigger better quality pics. our paysite member area pics are on average 200k and they are shown at 1024x768. no tgp gallery has pics even half that big.
2. a full set of pics isn't 40 or less in most sites - it's over 100. most galleries average 15 - 24 pics, so seeing a couple galleries doesn't really give you the full set.
3. not only do you get the full set of full sized high quality pics in the paysite, you also get the video that goes with the pics. and since the average movie gallery offers 1 minute total of video, and the topbucks sites, for example, have 30 minute videos, i don't think a movie gallery is going to really satisfy.
4. and remember, with a paysite if you like the style and quality of the one movie and pic set, you will have dozens more in the same theme, style and quality.
it's knowing this that made my gallery marketing what it was - i know and believe that the surfer who likes the content on my galleries will truly like the paysite i am sending the surfers to. that's why i only used one sponsor per gallery - the content and the page were all about that niche or site and the fact you could get lots more - NOT of some generic bs like thousands of pics, but of the actual style or niche i was offering.
paul's site is all his style of photography and of models. he's been in the thick of it for years and has his own special style of glamour. if you like 20 measly pics on a gallery, think of how much you'll like that type of 18 - 21 year old girl in his style when there are hundreds of them all in one place!
Quote:
Originally Posted by longboardjim
And I'm not the only site to do this. Offer the surfer value for money, think of the member first, affiliate second. Think CONTENT is KING, traffic is his queen. And you to will see what a powerful friend free porn can be.Quote:
Originally Posted by basschick
These rules apply if you're selling straight, gay or one legged Chinese midgets. :P
agreed , the point of joining a site is for better quality photo/videography
jim
Firstly, The Adult Industry is Growing as far as revenue is concerned.
With that in mind, it is not the amount of free content avaialable. Any surfer who is going to buy, will buy. Period. No matter how much free porn they get. Unless of course you are giving them the full 40 min video. But even then Bit Torrents sites are a great way to make sales. They watch one video (full 30 min), see your content, fall in love, get bored watching over and over, and will come back and buy a membership because they trust you.
It's like Basschick said you can get free samples all the time.
Regulations have HELPED this industry. Period.
About a year after I started the gov. tried to pass COPA. Everytime the gov. tries to regulate any aspect of our industry, they risk losing and having a law like COPA go to the highest court and fail. The failure of COPA has helped us.
Everyone was running scared with VISA. What did VISA regulations accomplish? One thing - we recognize porn as part of our business and here are the rules you have to play by. It got rid of a lot of webmasters that shouldn't be running paysites in the first place.
We ran scared of 2257. Even parts of that are tied down in lega battles.
The new labeling system is an attempt to get COPA back as the courts ruled earlier that the current filtering systems were adequate. But the fact is even this bill is fundamently flawed just as COPA.
Even though we live in a Republican controlled country. There are so MANY free speech precedences set before that these regulations will be tied up in courts for years. The first ammendment is more powerful than many webmasters would believe. And IF this new bill fails in the courts, the gov. is back to square one. Another victory for us.
Credit Card processinf and revenue streams are an issue. Basically we as webmasters are relying on two main processors. That is scary. DMR and IBILL were once darlings, just as Ccbill and Epoch are today. And let's not firget Epoch's problems a few years back.
The INDUSTRY has changed as far as content. And I know personally that many content providers are feeling it. Broadband is in and photos and feeds are becomming less valuable. Surfers who have been screwed by crappy sites (as Bass Chick mentioned), want exclusive content, videos, and DVD's.
I would also like to suggest that they want a good experience. And we in the porn have embraced technologies like DRM before they have actually matured.
If I can go pay $10 on a music service for a DRM protected CD and burn it to a cd and play it on my regular cd player. Why can't I as a surfer go and download a DRM protected video and make a dvd? The technology is not there for video.
When I ran my paysite I always linked to tools that allowed my members to make vcds of the videos I produced. Retention was amazing.
So many sites offer so little content in the niche they advertise, but offer all the plug-ins, old pics, low quality vids (that many even protect w/ DRM), and just a bad experience that it's sad.
If i get one more unable to authorize licence from a porn site I will flip.
So what is really hurting the industry. Considering the amount of money being spent on porn is NOT going down, it's just spread out more. And my answer would be we are reaching market saturation. The big are getting bigger and the small are getting smaller.
The cost of entry for a new webmaster has gone up. It's a more coporate structure. You need to treat it like a business and NOT a hobby as you could do in the past. You need a business plan, goals, fresh ideas, and the willingness to think outside the box.
As I said before it's webmasters who are our own worst enemies.
Think of the member first. GIVE THEM WHAT THEY WANT! I can't agree more. Bend over backwards, do flips, do whatever it takes. Give them a WOW factor.Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul Markham
I think you guys are missing the point, these are people that would join a members site that are telling you they get all most everything they need now for FREE. We all know they would get more if they pay, but they are saying they do not need too to see what will get them though the day. Free samples are ok, but if they gave free samples of everything in the grocery store 24/7 how many people would just hang out their to get a free meal.
These people that are telling you this are viewers and I am sure their are 100 of thousands of other viewers that think the same way they do. If you want to ignore what they are saying I guess its up to you but they are telling you the truth. Just go to gay.com and ask people if they look at porn, then ask if they belong to members site, I am sure you will find most people look at porn all the time and almost never pay for any of it. Ask them why they do not pay, and you are going to get “why should I can just go to so and so site and get what I need” just like the people here are trying to tell you.
Quote:
Originally Posted by maxpower
The adult industry is growing. Period. Free content sells memberships. Quality content retains it.
Very true, we are the our own worse threat. People disappointing the members then blaming free porn as the reason surfers will not sign up.Quote:
Originally Posted by abostonboy
I just worked out why ratios were so much better 6-7 years ago, it's not because of free porn. It's because we had not ripped off so many surfers and they trusted us.
maxpower free porn does not give what a quality pay site does end of story. Maybe it gives what 80% of the sites out there give, but then who's to blame for that?
If you believe free porn does give what a quality paysite gives, then show us the free porn site with 200 good porn and quality videos and 500 good porn and quality image sets in it.
And if you think a site can survive today with less good content, unless it's in a very narrow niche, you are sadly the problem.
You know what would be the very best thing for this industry today. It would be that on the join page the website has to state very clearly what the surfer is getting for his $30. Number of videos, image sets, sizes and the tour give good examples of them.
Yes it would mean the death of some sites, but think of it from the surfers POV and from those who can compete in 2006.
And why are some of you "amazed" and people today still buy website memberships and/or DVDs? Ummm.... people go and pay $10 to see crappy Hollywood movies in the movie theater. If you ran a retaurant that sold $8 gourmet cheeseburgers, would you throw a fit if McDonalds came into town and started selling their 99 cent burgers? (Or would you just goto the city council and chase them out of your turf?)Quote:
Originally Posted by Lee
Should biotech drug companies be allowed to keep their patents on their drugs forever? After all, like you guys, they spent a lot of money creating their product.
You have chosen to run a business in an extremely competitive marketplace. I find it interesting that operators don't seem to realize that this competition includes, and will always include, free porn.
I find this "tug of war" between entertainment producers and their consumers using their products interesting.
It's like with DRM. Producers think their movie products should be as sacred as a United States passport. My passport is not really "mine" It's issued to me as a United States citizen, and when it expires, the government gets it back. And any act of spindling or mutilating the document puts me under the thumb of federal criminal penal codes.
I never really own a passport, like I should never really own anything I want to watch on my laptop?
Steve