dealing with chargebacks

Hi all,

I am wondering how you deal / prevent the whole part of having members contacting you with the "I never signed up for this site" excuse ?

I had one call in today gave the right adress but a differnt name said he had no idea who we were and woudl like the charge credited back.

He may have been telling the truth as the e-mail adress on file was a yahoo acocunt but what steps have you found work well to help stop / eliminate the people who really have signed up and now just want a refund a month or 2 later?

You are kind of fucked from what I know, but the person will never beadle to use your processor again on any site. That only happened 1 time to me, and they just refunded the last month for him and not the other 2 he wanted, then his CC was blocked.

if you don't get many of these, i suggest you eat that refund. a refund is always better than a chargeback - it costs you less and doesn't apply against you with visa like a chargeback could.

you can very VERY gently (gently and nicely) let guys asking for refunds know that they could lose their ability to buy site memberships if they make a habit of getting adult site refunds.

the guys who said their card was stolen i asked for a police report number. sure, it meant nothing to me but i didn't hear back from them again as a rule.

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Originally Posted by collegeboyslive

Hi all,

I am wondering how you deal / prevent the whole part of having members contacting you with the "I never signed up for this site" excuse ?

I had one call in today gave the right adress but a differnt name said he had no idea who we were and woudl like the charge credited back.

He may have been telling the truth as the e-mail adress on file was a yahoo acocunt but what steps have you found work well to help stop / eliminate the people who really have signed up and now just want a refund a month or 2 later?

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We put something buried in our TOS that says "You agree to contact us in the event of a customer service issue or incorrect charge, and give us 15 days to resolve the issue BEFORE requesting a chargeback from your bank. If you do request a chargeback before contacting us, you agree to pay us an administrative fee of $100 plus the cost of the chargeback.

I've never tried to actually collect the $100, but what it has been useful for is the guys that say "Do (whatever) or I will request a chargeback" and, after I point out to them that they've already agreed to the fee, usually they back down.

One of the best ways I've seen webmasters avoid chargebacks is records.

What IP did that person login as (each time)
What days? What did they download?

Then you write a nice letter...

Dear member:
I see you requested a chargeback for your membership.
I also see that you have accessed the site 29 out of the 30 days.
Downloaded (x) amount of files.

We follow up on all chargebacks and will subit our information to the credit card company and police as it appears that your card was stolen. If in fact you did use our site please make arrangements to void the chargeback or pay us what owe in the next two days.

Of course, this is not what they send out as I'm not at the office. BUT the thought is on track.

Keep records and then follow through.
If a person kept signing in on one or two IPs each day and downloaded or viewed files...then go after them.

Thats the sort of thing we tell any customer who chargebacks us. It might put the fear into them, but I don't think we've ever recieved the money they owe us though.

I think if more people did this maybe the chargeback problem would lessen. I dunno...

As it is, credit card users are getting TOO savvy and know that they can just request a refund from ccbill and they will get it every time. :cry:

For the most part you are correct.

CCbill is a lot harder to file claims with Visa & MC.
It can be done but it is harder.

This happens not only in our industry but ALL industries. The card hold only has to say "It's not mine..." and they merchant bank allows the chargeback. We have had more success when with our own Merchant Account (not CCbill) by filling the disbute form with all the information above.

The ones with CCbill I had to contact the client myself with the information and suggest that I will be filing a claim. It had had about a 50% success rate.

The chargebacks that I did with my own Merchant account has a 95% success rate. The big difference the that I can file my claim with the credit card bank direct with my own...but can't with CCbill.

Drives me crazy too since we all know the user wanted the membership or product. I would like to see a service that I could pay someone to hand deliver noticed to these clients and lean on them a bit more. Letting them know that we will have to have their wife sign the form too that they did not use their credit card to view porn.

The bottom line is that no matter what records you keep, no matter how many emails from customers you get, no matter how many times you talk to them on the phone, they will win if it goes to chargeback because it is an electronic transaction devoid of the customer signature.

The credit card system and banking system are still very much set up in favor of the consumer and very much against the merchant.

We have a policy that we try to discourage the chargeback and we use several of the tactics included in this post, but we always immediately issue a refund and blacklist the card and person as soon as anyone starts talking about unauthorized charges, fraud, or potential chargebacks.

All it takes is the customer breathing the word unauthorized to the bank and you get a chargeback that you can't substantiate without a signed point of purchase authorization from the customer. it's that easy. and many customers know this.

We once had a customer that purchased several videos from us and we verified his IP location, his telephone, his address, all belonging to him. We had a positive CVV2 score, AVS score, we talked to the customer by phone and email, and two months later we got a chargeback from him as an unauthorized transaction. I was pissed! I filed a police report for fraud.
The police showed up at our office, took down a few essentials, and basically said that there is not much they can do but pass the report off to the customers police jurisdiction. And that's the last we heard of it!

Bottom line, give the refund. I think discouraging it in the terms of the site is a good idea, and hinting at repercussions.... but bottom line, give the refund before it becomes a chargeback.

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Originally Posted by tombarr

The bottom line is that no matter what records you keep, no matter how many emails from customers you get, no matter how many times you talk to them on the phone, they will win if it goes to chargeback because it is an electronic transaction devoid of the customer signature.

The credit card system and banking system are still very much set up in favor of the consumer and very much against the merchant.

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This is so true

No matter what records you have you will not, I repeat WILL NOT stop a chargeback as the credit card company doesn't even call the merchant before crediting the charge for the customer.

It's just part of our business that some people will charge back

The ways to avoid chargebacks:

1) Update regularly

2) Supply to members what you promis in tours

3) If a member emails you, respond to their email

4) If a member requests a refund, give it to them, no questions asked, and if you don't, your processing company will :cry:

you know, sometimes when a member says he didn't join, he didn't. we had an affiliate send 41 joins with stolen credit card numbers once - and there really ARE times when someone's 19 year old son borrows dad's card without permission.

i had several guys who did chargebacks on us years ago send us checks after i talked to them. while it didn't help us with our processor, it did convince me that some are misguided rather than complete jerks - and we can help educate a few of them to make them better customers.

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Originally Posted by basschick

you know, sometimes when a member says he didn't join, he didn't. we had an affiliate send 41 joins with stolen credit card numbers once - and there really ARE times when someone's 19 year old son borrows dad's card without permission.

i had several guys who did chargebacks on us years ago send us checks after i talked to them. while it didn't help us with our processor, it did convince me that some are misguided rather than complete jerks - and we can help educate a few of them to make them better customers.

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That's all well and good Patti but when it comes to dealing with chargebacks merchants have little recourse, no matter how kind hearted and what pure intentions the card holder might have.

And God dam you should have taken that affiliate to court or at least outed him on GWW so we all know who he is so we could avoid the same situation.. that really sucks

One of my very few beefs with ccbill is that they offer the webmaster NO way to contest a chargeback. We had a customer that very clearly had used our services a lot, we had the log files and various emails in which he'd expressed satisfaction with our services. Clear evidence of receipt of services.

I tried to get ccbill to take the materials we had to fight the chargeback, but they weren't the slightest bit interested... they insisted that "they had their own ways of fighting the chargebacks" which, to me, means probably doing nothing since, without evidence to the contrary, they couldn't prove anything.

I tried to get the info so we could submit the info ourselves, but, of course, they wouldn't allow us to do that either.

I just thought it was crap.

I am not sure third party processors can release consumer credit card information even though you are the end reseller....the fact remains you are a reseller of the processors services... and it is on their merchant account, not yours...so they may have a legal issue with giving you any information to fight the chargeback.

CCBill also knows it is futile to dispute a chargeback for a paysite subscription....it's not supportable with signed documentation, 100% card in hand proof at the time of purchase so they have a liberar no questions asked refund policy to protect their merchant account which is the mainstay of their business...

so at the first sign of trouble from a customer, I am sure CCBilll would rather just refund than take the risk with their merchant account.

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Originally Posted by tombarr

I am not sure third party processors can release consumer credit card information even though you are the end reseller....the fact remains you are a reseller of the processors services... and it is on their merchant account, not yours...so they may have a legal issue with giving you any information to fight the chargeback.

CCBill also knows it is futile to dispute a chargeback for a paysite subscription....it's not supportable with signed documentation, 100% card in hand proof at the time of purchase so they have a liberar no questions asked refund policy to protect their merchant account which is the mainstay of their business...

so at the first sign of trouble from a customer, I am sure CCBilll would rather just refund than take the risk with their merchant account.

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Tom,

What you are saying is right to the point.

Bottom Line: You win some. You lose some.

And sometimes we forget that MANY times a surfer stays a member and never visits a site for months and never asks for a refund. So giving arefund or getting a CB here and there is really just part of the business. You win some, you lose some.

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Originally Posted by tombarr

so at the first sign of trouble from a customer, I am sure CCBilll would rather just refund than take the risk with their merchant account.

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You are 100% correct because a refund comes out of our pocket... but a chargeback goes on CCBILL's record... and when push comes to shove it's them before us :king:

and this is nothing against CCBill.. it's a third party processor dichotomy, they're damned if they do damned if they don't... whereas an unhappy or unscrupulous customer has nothing to lose by asking for their money back :high:

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Drives me crazy too since we all know the user wanted the membership or product. I would like to see a service that I could pay someone to hand deliver noticed to these clients and lean on them a bit more. Letting them know that we will have to have their wife sign the form too that they did not use their credit card to view porn.

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i wish where was a system wheer all or most websites subscribed to and all 3rd party processors did where if someone does a charge back that card is blacklisted imidantly across ALL processors and marchants.

it may discurage people if they basically had to get a new card from their bank if they do a chargeback. and after all they usualy state they didnt do the charge so its probally safe to list the card as stolen right?

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Originally Posted by collegeboyslive

i wish where was a system wheer all or most websites subscribed to and all 3rd party processors did where if someone does a charge back that card is blacklisted imidantly across ALL processors and marchants.

it may discurage people if they basically had to get a new card from their bank if they do a chargeback. and after all they usualy state they didnt do the charge so its probally safe to list the card as stolen right?

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Was this post meant for the drunk webmasters forum?

And not being judgemental.. I've had my moments as well :thumbsup:

Outside of the box - It's a service that is rendered when people pay to play on a site. The only tracking is that of IP logs and phone logs, if they called in their membership.

Why not sell them something that needs to be mailed and in return they gain membership to the site as an extra? Even if it's to a 6 month keychain club membership where we send you a hip new keychain each month, you have shipping label tracking that can be used in a chargeback situation showing an invoice for material goods, shipped to the cardholders address.

Maybe too far outside ...

LOL squirt... long day, late night

that has been tried. many potential members don't want anything mailed to their homes, so you will lose those guys. and there are different kinds of processing - you can't just decide to sell an item if you are processing for a subscription site.

then roommates and sons might have the same address, so it wouldn't really establish that they didn't misuse the card.

btw, we ran an amateur girls in panties site. we couldn't manage to give away most of the panties the girls wore in the site.

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Originally Posted by IdolKnights

Outside of the box - It's a service that is rendered when people pay to play on a site. The only tracking is that of IP logs and phone logs, if they called in their membership.

Why not sell them something that needs to be mailed and in return they gain membership to the site as an extra? Even if it's to a 6 month keychain club membership where we send you a hip new keychain each month, you have shipping label tracking that can be used in a chargeback situation showing an invoice for material goods, shipped to the cardholders address.

Maybe too far outside ...

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For both scenarios, I find being open and honest, with the client, works best:

I start by explaining to them how our server logs all account activity (IPs, login count, dates, times, duration etc) and how I review the 'stats', before I proceed with the 'refund request'.
This is a record showing that you used our services, repeatedly.

Next, I remind them of the specific terms which they had to agree to, TWICE (we have two check boxes, for terms), in order to proceed with the transaction (I kindly provide them with the exact text that is on the URL or link, which I also provide).

Next, I explain, in detail, how their actions are viewed as a form of fraud. I continue to inform them of the steps that we and the billing company are forced to take, so to ensure they (first & last name, credit card #, e-mail address, bank account #, e-mail address etc), can NEVER acquire a subscription with us, again, or with any site that also use the services of the billing company, (whom by chance happen to process transactions for a very large percentage of the adult website).

Lastly, I ask that they commit to or confirm their choice or request.

Probably do not have to tell you that I rarely see a 'confirmation', rather I usually get never mind.

I am not saying I do not submit refund/credit (which we STILL payout on) requests, for folks whom are (as far as I am concerned) genuine. I am saying I hate people whom negate on a contract or commitment, which THEY initiated (made a decision which they later regret and expect us to 'deal with').

BTW, ‘THEY’ are the same quality of people that one minute acquire credit so that they can purchases some ‘toys’ (wants, not needs), and in the next minute they are filing for bankruptcy, while retaining the goods (stolen in my eyes).

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Originally Posted by collegeboyslive

I am wondering how you deal / prevent the whole part of having members contacting you with the "I never signed up for this site" excuse ?

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More or less, the same as above, except this time I tell the complainant that I will submit a 'claim of fraud', with specific details (excuse = not recognized, family member or friend used without auth etc) to the billing company (whom forwards it to the clients bank or credit provider) which will help to ensure that card can more or less never be used to purchase anything adult related, online.

I submit ‘additions to the negative list’ request to our billing processor, all the time, and they have yet to reply “we can not”.

Hey guys-
since I'm not involved in the proccessing and customer service aspects of the biz, I was wondering a few things....

1. Do ISPS like CCBill tell the person on the phone when they are calling to chargeback that they should try canceling first if they signed up themselves and that its fraudulent chargebacks are illegal?

2. Have you all experimented on Join Pages or In the members area with a decent sized notice about Fraud and the difference between chargebacks vs canceling?

sometimes I see paysites have little notices at the bottom like "all fraud will be prosecuted", yadda yadda yadda, but I would be surprised if that has much of an effect