Should We Add A 'Scammers' Section To GWW?

Ive been chatting to a couple of people about this idea over the past few days and, it does seem like it would help a lot of people out in the long run.

My only problem with it would be the potential legal problems that could occur should the information that gets posted not be correct.

What are your folks thoughts about this, would an area of GWW especially for people to warn others about doing business with someone be of use to any of you folks? Would you even use it?

It could be used not only for people who issue chargebacks but, also for listing URLs and sites that remove recip links, redirect traffic, install spyware/adware etc.

Hopefully we could get some of the big gay link list owners to participate in this also.

Regards,

Lee

Seems to me that wouldn't be a great idea ... you'll have to sift through he said/she said stuff to try and figure out the truth. And oftentimes "scamming" is all about perception. Unless you have hardcore evidence that someone used a stolen credit or didn't pay an invoice, how can you really know that the scamming allegation is real or just not some whacked out webmaster screaming their head off.

Let's say someone commission designs from a designer, and the work wasn't what the customer wanted. The designer said, "It's fine, I'm not changing it," or perhaps they tried to work with the customer and change it, but couldn't make the customer happy. In the end the customer just got frustrated and said, "Forget it, I don't want to work with you, you can't do what I want."

Now the designer is out money and feels like he's been scammed, the customer doesn't feel like the work was up to par. Both people could add complaints to the scammer list and where does that get us?

I think it's a really bad idea.

Michael

Michael,

You make a good point about that.

Ive actually just been informed that someone else is working on an idea similar to this so it looks like its a moot point right now anyway, hopefully the idividuals working on their own scammers board will have it open to the public so that everyone can utilize the information on it instead of a select few :)

Regards,

Lee

I have to agree with Michael. Without both sides of story I wouldn't want to have basically a flame war/law suite opportunities happening on a forum I owned.

I would like to see you consider adding a section for bloggers to meet and greet and discuss seo, plugins, scripts, etc if you're looking for something fresh to add to the forum. I saw a forum recently for bloggers of adult sites that are doing str8 sites, and they had different sections to post for trades, script help, plugin discussions, seo discussions and so on. Be cool to have one here for the gay adult bloggers where the info isn't just mixed in under the general forum. :morning:

I have to say that since this hasn't been tried before that it should be.

All posts in the scammers board could be anonymous to avoid liability and everything there to be taken with a grain of salt. It's not an end all or be all of doing business with someone, just another factor to take into account.

I think it's a great idea and waiting for someone else to do it, when could be added here so easily, just seems unnesicary. Now if a scammer board/site is created... we could all start using that in the future.

What do you guys think?

I have to agree with the more restrained posters in this thread, the last thing we need is to be encouraging more rumors, he sad she said, unsupported slander, drama, and some webmasters throwing around accusations with no real evidence for their own gain/revenge or just flat out just its entertainment value.

We have a bit of problem as it is keeping a good flow in the main category on this board, if anything we might need to lose a few of the other categories.

Do you want your message board to be for and about witchhunts? Or about growing your business?

Steve

I'm concerned that given that our industry is not made up of angels and pillars of ethical conduct, it would be entirely too easy for someone with a grudge against another, or even a desire to kill a competing program, to simply post distortions or outright lies.

Add the ability to post anonymously with no accountability, and I think you have a recipe for disaster. Additionally, "anonymously" isn't, because unless Lee made specific modifications, he would have IP address logs and if there were a lawsuit, Lee would get subpoenaed and required to serve up the IP addresses of the "anonymous" posters. (Yes, you can use anonymizers and all that... but it's still a subpoena that Lee would have to respond to.)

What might be a better idea is some sort of collective reputation thing, where people could rate and give a brief description of their experiences with a given company (limited to actual interactions, business dealings, etc, sorta like resellerratings.com) Elance and Rent-a-coder both do this with their freelancer brokering services, and of course Ebay... and it seems to work reasonably well. Even that isn't foolproof; buyers have been known to extort discounts by threatening negative ratings, but it's probably the best system out there.

I realize that many might not want to risk their reputation (reference to the previous thread on a similar topic) but it might be a place to start, and would likely be a lot less of a lawsuit magnet.

If anyone thinks its a good idea to start a rumor category please let me know, I will be more than happy too create a rumor about your sites or work and see what you think about it then. :p

i believe in public awareness! , so long as the "truth/fact" of the matter is revealed (i'd rather see sh*t slung on a column/section of it's own then sift through it on the general) there is nothing wrong with "reporting" a buisness discrepancy (the better buisness bureau) , you get enough discrepancies together and you have a case!

sincerely ~ ..."go directly to jail! , do not pass go! , do not collect $200.00!"... - monopoly :fool:

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Originally Posted by Squirt

All posts in the scammers board could be anonymous to avoid liability and everything there to be taken with a grain of salt. It's not an end all or be all of doing business with someone, just another factor to take into account.

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Anonymity isn't necessary for the whistleblower who presents verifiable facts.

The big problem with this sort of thing is where you are going to draw the line. Does someone who accidentally removed a recip deserve to be in the scammer database for the next five years?

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Originally Posted by Matt 26z

Anonymity isn't necessary for the whistleblower who presents verifiable facts.

The big problem with this sort of thing is where you are going to draw the line. Does someone who accidentally removed a recip deserve to be in the scammer database for the next five years?

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It's just something to be taken with a grain of salt. Not the end all and be all of doing business with a person or company.

People make mistakes and that's understandable. We've all made mistakes don't you agree?

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Originally Posted by maxpower

If anyone thinks its a good idea to start a rumor category please let me know, I will be more than happy too create a rumor about your sites or work and see what you think about it then. :p

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Max please keep this thread on topic. If you wish to go off topic start your own thread.

This is a serious business discussion

I think if you're going to complain about someone publicly then you ought to have the courage to sign your name to the post. I think an anonymous system is such a bad idea. I mean really I could create a campaign against anyone I didn't like, say anything I wanted and get ten of my friends to do the same and we could crucify just about anyone. Without verifiable facts and identities, it would just turn into a GFY type of forum.

I think we already have a sort of database right here. If you want to check up on someone, you simply post: "Has anyone dealt with so-and-so program?" Or simply do a search and you'll get all kinds of stuff. I don't think we need a specific dart board.

Michael

even voting on reputation points can go wrong. i used to post on one board that did that and one guy posted a negative on me. he had never spoken directly to me even on a thread, had no dealings with me of any sort, and when asked why he did that, he felt i thought i "knew everything" and strongly felt women shouldn't work in adult.

The problem of our vulnerability as a community stays when solutions aren't provided.

What are your ideas aside from the status quo?

Agreed, it's an imperfect solution, but I feel it's better than just a "scammers" board, particularly if the poster must write out their thoughts/issues in addition to posting a rating. Then one that is obviously full of hooey can be deleted.

Of course... now that I think about it, there's nothing to stop somebody from registering bunch of fake identities to promote themselves as wonderful. At least Ebay has sophisticated fraud detection to prevent that sort of crap, plus they also require feedback to be referenced to a transaction they can verify.

Scammers section might be to harsh. Perhaps a "buyer beware" section?

What if it was like ebay, where someone has feedback, and the other has an option to counter the feedback. Then the poster can counter that once, and the other can post a final counter to that second feedback.

So for one feedback there are three subsequent posts. That way there is no drama going back and forth etc.

That way it ties in the Ebay model of feedback to a board and aleviates the drama accusations.

How does this sound?

agreed! , reputations are subject to change , especially if you hire a model who is latter to be discovered as a minor...i'm guessing
the solution would be to "report" a companies "misdealings" so that others can be made aware and/or a company can "defend" it's actions.
it should be made very clear that all accusations must be accompanied by poster's proof and/or individual/company contact information.

jim

i think it would be helpful to be able to change our feedback if it turned out a situation was rectified - say from a negative feedback to maybe a feedback category that basically means "treat with care but did work things out".

for example, a designer gets paid late but does get paid by a client. the client was nice - just slow to pay, so now the designer would get paid in advance before working for him but would still work for him. not really a negative nor a positive exactly and not a neutral.

I think this whole thing no mater what you want to call it is a bad idea and opens the door for all kind of crap. Like Michael said “I think we already have a sort of database right here. If you want to check up on someone, you simply post: "Has anyone dealt with so-and-so program?" Or simply do a search and you'll get all kinds of stuff. I don't think we need a specific dart board”

Don’t we get enough drama as it is around here already with out opening the door for random webmasters to attack each others sites.

I think a Maxpowers Appreciation Section would be a better idea personally :thumbsup:

The legal ramifications are I think something a lawyer would have to carefully weigh before cosnidering such a program. While the intent is admirable it is frought with danger simply because those posting are emotional and not objective. Specially if you feel you have been wronged.

Free flow of information and warnings are needed, but as long as there are posters who feed on drama like Maxpower, then you can expect a great deal of false information and drama that is unnecessary or relevent. Which defeats the entire purpose of the forum itself.

Frankly, the way Lee has handled most of these instances seems to work out, without the need for a separate forum and while it would be nice to have, a simple search of the forum can lead to past postings.

The real issue is to give posters the freedom of posting without the slugging matches that ensue. No separate forum will do that. Address that aspect and then you can easily achieve a more open arena for discussion free from the crapola and without the need of private forums or special forums.

if model X is paid to perform a modeling service and fails to comply with contract i don't foresee a problem reporting that he/she is in breach of contract. (if you are more comfortable having a lawyer post in "legal-jargon" then do so)
agreed! , "misdealings" are sometimes "resolved" posting a report will make others aware (buyer beware) and/or prompt an individual/company to take action in correcting this problem. (be very sure of your facts and post only the problem you encountered)
agreed! , the atypical "sandbox" fights are going to occur but i'm sure we all know the difference between "just" and "unjust" and maybe shed some knowledge/direction in resolving the problem ourselves. (dude! , you didn't get it in writing! , your screwed!)
and before i write anymore (i know you all are just hanging on every word that comes out of my keyboard!) the best person to answer this question would be someone in the legal field. (i should have either become a lawyer or an automotive mechanic , the fields are very lucrative!)

sincerely ~ ..."your no good"... - linda rondstadt

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Originally Posted by maxpower

I think a Maxpowers Appreciation Section would be a better idea personally :thumbsup:

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:) , as wh*tney houston once told me , ..."your never going to get paid what your actually worth!"... so i'm not sure your going to get an appreciation section here. :)
should you ever decide to become a model i would like an opportunity to photograph you. (you'll notice i left it open for me to come to you!) :)

sincerely ~ ..."R.E.S.P.E.C.T"... - aretha franklin

Lee if you remeber I was just about to open ShittyDeal.com a few years ago and my attorney twisted my arm so hard, I just didn't do it. Plus I didn't need anything else to add to list of people who never met, spoke with or done business with me and still think I'm a prick :develish: Anyway, in ten years I've been ripped off by billing companies starting in 1996 with Webcash, that's what it was called at the time. I lost $10,000 in hard money and lots of members. I lost 26,000. or more with DMR which lots of you will remember, Globill and others. I got Tony Davis kicked out of this business, he ripped me off for $2000. The famous EDK and untold software ripoffs. It's part of doing business in a new and ever changing industry which doesn't exaclty attract the highend professional in most cases.

One problem is all the ass kissing that goes on in the board postings (here I go again getting myself in trouble and pissing people off) by people who are complimenting others who they don't know personally or never did business with. That's how Tony Davis pulled off his scam and that was with Ynot's backing. Everyone was saying what a great guy Tony was and most knew nothing about him, never used him for anything and probably never even spoke to him or exchanged an email. This gave him the opportunity to keep collecting upfront money for his marketing services and not doing one fucking iota of work. I have all the emails - it's pretty funny to read them now. Anyway, my point is that you don't need a separate facility for complaints, just a mention on these boards should be enough to warn the wise. Where's there's smoke there's fire. I guess I just gave this thread the kiss of death :broccoli: LOL, love the dancing brocoli Lee.

WARNING: Paco's back at it [slash] long post.

As some of my previous posts have shown, I would truly love that (an assbag webmaster listing, page or site), however I know what will happen: too many "family feuds" (poor partnerships etc) will lead to too many malcontent WM making erroneous & spiteful posts, and nobody will moderate it, properly and aggressively, due to their fears of losing business.

It would be nice if we could gather together to support one another by providing a listing of crooked webmasters & companies whom have been exposed (history, evidence & actions taken against), however not enough will go for it as too many worry about liability, and care not enough about sharing with their online friends.

I now recess further, trusting even less, thanks to a world ruled by fright (of litigation & liability). Gee, terrorism does work!

Exactly what is so “wrong” about a community that allows its patrons to posts their bad dealings with others, in a "blog" format? Does a person now have to worry about their online diary? Has "society" become so weak and fucking pathetic that it ("society") is no longer true to its meaning?

I often receive shitty service when I visit Starbucks: they constantly pour short; their cream is often so warm it’s almost cheese; the “bold” coffee was so weak I assumed they gave me tea and to add to the experience, the SERVANTS (staff) are so obnoxious and think so highly of themselves. I’ve given them thousands of dollars over the years, however I now boycott them because I consider them thieving lying bastards whom do not care about anything but profit.

I just told you that I believe Starbucks to be a pack of crooks that do not care about their customers but do for saving money, and that the workers are incompetent.
*waiting for a phone call from the legal representatives ("lawyers") of Star$*
Gee, I wonder how long this will take. Oh, wait - they will not come after me, because the cannot, for detailing our past "dealings", or for me providing my opinion.

One does not need to go in to fine detail of their mishaps - a simple “FYI” will suffice. Oh, how about a “warning” in the format of a mere addition to a diary. Damn, make it a story, if you have to - GWW is packed full of creative writers.
Such posts from WMs, whom have earned my trust, will be heeded and appreciated, greatly. So much so that I’ll GIVE (I said give, not trade) them business! Do not snicker, as that is exactly how I do things and reward the good!
I just gave what I could, and added more than I should have, to an individual who was more concerned with bringing things to light, than he was with a sheet of paper from some law firm (exactly how I viewed the action). Whether or not money is made from the gift is of no concern to me. The individual's actions are!

!!!GET PAID FOR BEING AN OPEN & HONEST INDIVIDUAL!!!

WOW, what a concept, huh?

WTF am I saying! That wouldn't fly with the others in our industry - it just SO against the grain and there may not be a monetary gain.
MHO: the hushed WMs have no right to argue that we (porn pushers) are viewed as being dishonest scum, as they are partly responsible for perpetuating the view/belief! Cry wolf somewhere else, Chicken Little!

I see no reason for being frightened, at all, but maybe that is because I am the very ballsy & always spicy Italian whom views the world through his eyes and heart, and not his wallet, all the while trying his hardest to be honest to, and caring of/for, others.
Maybe there truly is only one Paco *raising chin, high*.

I view those that threaten with litigation as being the exact same as those that do so with physical violence - once the battle horns sound we all know that the weaker individual (those with the least amount of money & the sub-standard lawyer) will lose!

We all know (or I hope we do) that law is just a game of words, and those with the best understanding of the history of the English language win. *spitting @ judge*
Real fair, fuckers! Best hope I do not roll-up my sleeves!

I’d honestly rather see two slug it out in the parking lot, and later gab over cold blue steaks & beers afterwards, rather than a long-winded (and I know long-winded) battle in the oh so “fair” playgrounds where the verbal bullies reside!
I do not expect many to agree with the above, as they may think it too Neandertal'ish, however it IS better, more honourable, and no more or less archaic than most court room battles, IME!

No wonder I joke around, so much - why bother being serious about life, when no others are?
Life truly is a game.

P.S. I have nothing against good and honest lawyers.

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Originally Posted by Bec

I would like to see you consider adding a section for bloggers to meet and greet and discuss seo, plugins, scripts, etc if you're looking for something fresh to add to the forum.

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Bec, whilst that is definately an additional tool that would help bloggers in the gay side of the industry, it has been tried before and failed.. Miserably.

Although, we are strong as a community [gay marketers] the unfortunate truth is that not many are willing to participate in smaller, more focused areas of the industry when it comes to message boards instead, people opt to go the route of posting their questions on the main boards, no matter where they are.

I notice that IGP just recently opened a 'blogging' section of his board, after you posted your suggestion here, just like EddieK did months ago on TXG, and whilst the concept is a novel idea, it will fail for the very reasons i mentioned above.

Unfortunately, people rarely pay attention to the mistakes of others and end up making the same ones because they dont understand webmasters.

I had also planned on adding a 'legal' section to GWW several months ago and scrapped that idea for the same reason, and again, TXG opened a legal forum and, yet again, it failed.

I would love to be able to add a bunch of topic specific forums to the GWW Community but really, there isnt any point beause they will never get utilized by people.

Regards,

Lee

I wasn't aware of other gay boards trying and failing with having a specific category for bloggers. Anyways, thanks for at least commenting about the suggestion, was wondering what your thoughts were on the idea. I suggested it because it seems to be something "new" to a lot of the members here, and we seem to be collectively exchanging info via icq that really could benefit a larger group of both seasoned and novice users.