when you post for webmaster opinions...

when you ask for other webmasters' opinions, are you actually asking for opinions or are you hoping to have your text/site/graphic/idea validated?

i notice that usually when people ask for opinions, they tell one thing to the webmaster asking - almost always positive - and then icq each other and criticize the thing that was asked about as they did not do on the post.

people say i am brutally honest, but i figure if he/she asks for an opinion, and if i give my honest opinion, i'm helping.

one webmaster i know who shall remain nameless is mostly not into websites. he paid a designer to make a tour that just sucked - it was awful! but no one told him that -they told him it was excellent, so he figured with all that backup, it probably was. but sales dropped when he started using it and kept dropping. and since in reality no one liked the tour, affiliate hits dropped, too.

the way i see it, no one was doing him a favor by trying to make him feel good about a tour that they themselves wouldn't send traffic to. but everyone told me they didn't want to hurt his feelings. when he finally talked to me about this, he said he really wished people had told him the truth so he wouldn't have lost all that income.

the last few times i posted for opinions, everyone said nice things - which is no help at all - till i posted on the thread i wanted only to hear the negative opinions as those would be things i might need to fix. all the people who said "hey, great job!" or "i really like it" type of things suddenly DID have other opinions, and those were helpful to read.

so - how about you? when you ask, do you want real opinions or positive spin?

I think again, it comes back to the issues we've all seen over the past few weeks with people not posting the negative things because they dont want to start 'drama'.

But i agree with what you said, you and i both know how many people post one thing and then on ICQ say the exact opposite :(

Its just a shame that as an industry we have allowed ourselves to be manipulated by certain individuals so we no longer feel that we can publicly post anything 'negative' in case, as the person posting it, we end up looking bad.

Regards,

Lee

the truth is always best , but there are ways of "tactfully" telling someone the world as they know it is going to end and there's not a damn thing they can do to stop it.
everyone has their own style , i wrap my knife in "humor" and/or say nothing at all. (i save this for the more blunt individuals)
i appreciate everyone's opinions , keep up the good work!

sincerely ~ ..."careful , your treading on my dreams"...

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09-22-2006 10:30 AM
basschick when you ask for other webmasters' opinions, are you actually asking for opinions or are you hoping to have your text/site/graphic/idea validated?

i notice that usually when people ask for opinions, they tell one thing to the webmaster asking - almost always positive - and then icq each other and criticize the thing that was asked about as they did not do on the post.

people say i am brutally honest, but i figure if he/she asks for an opinion, and if i give my honest opinion, i'm helping.

one webmaster i know who shall remain nameless is mostly not into websites. he paid a designer to make a tour that just sucked - it was awful! but no one told him that -they told him it was excellent, so he figured with all that backup, it probably was. but sales dropped when he started using it and kept dropping. and since in reality no one liked the tour, affiliate hits dropped, too.

the way i see it, no one was doing him a favor by trying to make him feel good about a tour that they themselves wouldn't send traffic to. but everyone told me they didn't want to hurt his feelings. when he finally talked to me about this, he said he really wished people had told him the truth so he wouldn't have lost all that income.

the last few times i posted for opinions, everyone said nice things - which is no help at all - till i posted on the thread i wanted only to hear the negative opinions as those would be things i might need to fix. all the people who said "hey, great job!" or "i really like it" type of things suddenly DID have other opinions, and those were helpful to read.

so - how about you? when you ask, do you want real opinions or positive spin?

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I completely agree - the truth is always the best way to go. Why bother wasting your time "fluffing" everything up when it's in the best interest of the webmaster to get the most honest and helpful feedback.

Also, I think sometimes constructive criticism is often taken as just plain criticism. Because some don’t know how to interpret it, or some aren't necessarily good conveyors of it.

Honesty is the best policy.

I do try my hardest to do as you - be as open and honest as possible, at all times - while reserving the right to withhold certain truths, so to not come off as sounding TOO much like an ass/troll, as well I use it when dealing with timid persons (some family etc). That does not mean I do not find it next to impossible to be honest with people whom ask for an opinion, but in truth are really only wanting others to see and accept their work. For them, I sometimes cave and simply give them what they want.

I too do find it unfortunate that many of us often blow sunshine up another’s butt merely because they do not want to offend, and/or ruin potential relations (business etc) with the person asking for the critique.

Oh, BTW, my sheath is intricately woven from many different materials, such as humour, analogies, metaphors and truth! When I draw my blade, I sometimes have to wait to see what type of residue remains on it (the blade) as that tells me what type of response I am to give!

Bass,

Last night I posted a few drawings and asked for crit. I did get good feedback but hate to think someone held back if something was not up to par.

If you tell me it’s great but it’s not, I learn nothing.

The more detailed the Crit the better.

Suggestions for improvement are great! It'd be a shame to lose out on revenue because the forum commenters are trying too hard to be nice in their public comments.

i think its admirable that people dont want to hurt peoples feelings but i agree, whats the point? if someone posts a request for a site review its because they want help and advice, and thats why most of us come onto these boards, to help, get helped and learn (plus of course build business relationships).

i will allways try to be honest but if i have nothing positive at all to say in a site review, i wont bother. i know thats wimpish on my part but id rather say nothing than slate someones work. if theres hope for the site (which 99% of the time there is), then ill give my feedback.

I just noticed something funny. All of the people that have posted in this thread so far are the webmasters that offer honest critiques. Lol. I wonder why the sunshine-blowers haven't posted yet?

I try to offer honest opinions. But if I'm not personally interested in what someone is asking for critiques on, I don't usually bother. I also sometimes lack tact. :( But I'm working on that. :D

wanna bet? ;)

that one guy i was talking about with the tour that no one wanted to send traffic to? NO one but me said anything that wasn't positive and the thread went on for two pages.

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Originally Posted by Xstr8guy

I just noticed something funny. All of the people that have posted in this thread so far are the webmasters that offer honest critiques. Lol. I wonder why the sunshine-blowers haven't posted yet?

I try to offer honest opinions. But if I'm not personally interested in what someone is asking for critiques on, I don't usually bother. I also sometimes lack tact. :( But I'm working on that. :D

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I think this falls under the same reason most people don't like to post about a negative experience with a vender, designer, affiliate, etc. They don't want to be seen as causing drama or being a negative person or knit picking.

Then there are the people that take up a lot of our time asking questions and we give our honest feedback, only to be presented with a finished product that has NOTHING to do with all the recommendations and advice we gave.

When I ask a question in the forum I want total honesty, even if it's something I wasn't expecting. At the end of the day it's important to give an honest opinion as that's what will truly help someone, whether they take it in or not.

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Originally Posted by basschick

wanna bet? ;)

that one guy i was talking about with the tour that no one wanted to send traffic to? NO one but me said anything that wasn't positive and the thread went on for two pages.

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LOL yep, its like a knee jerk reaction from about everyone, just like when some new guy comes in and more than likely will nerve come back, but at least this I can understand the latter. Both thread types I normally say nothing it at all in, I guess that is bad but..............................

I will almost always try to post honestly an opinion about something, but if it's truly awful and the person worked hard on it, I will usually try to buffer what I'm saying somewhat, while still giving an honest opinion.

When I first started reading Patti's posts a couple years ago, I was thinking "Boy, she's harsh" but then I realized that the no-BS approach is exactly what everyone needs if they can get past their own egos.

I doubt there's anyone here (well, with the possible exception of Max) that can afford to waste time and money promoting a tour or design if people are offering up advice saying it's awful. There's a lot of collective experience, and I think that maybe some of those who are unwilling to say negative things could find ways to communicate the same things they're saying privately but just communicated more gently.

Lee, maybe the solution is an "unvarnished criticism" subforum where people can post things they want reviewed critically and understand that whatever is said in that forum may be harsh but accurate. That way, the posters might feel they have license to say things, knowing the poster knowingly posted there, without causing drama.

and what chip said is what i don't get. i come off as harsh to people when i try to save them from losing money or working too hard. i very rarely post on threads asking for opinions any more because it's just too confusing for me.

people would apparently take any criticism on their work as an insult and feel hurt rather than using that criticism to succeed. if someone breaks this social politeness to share hard-won knowledge and experience, it is brutal or harsh. but lying straight out about whether you think a site or plan is good or not is socially acceptable as long as you lie in a positive way.

what is it i am missing here? it doesn't hurt my feelings when someone wants to help me. worst case scenario, they're wrong - but it is always worth considering what they say and how applying it would affect the product, site or business. and that they took the time to want to help seems very friendly and caring.

ever feel like you're the only one out of step?

Basschick, when i first recieved feedback from you, i took it harshly.... it took me a day or two to understand that what you were doing wasn't being mean, it was being helpful.... I know i don't post much to many boards, but you really helped me greatly, and I think that if people can overcome that initial critism, they will really learn. I took it personally at first, but then after talking to Chip, I realized that it wasn't personal at all, that it was helpful... You have a very good sense about things, and I respect what you have to say.... I really thank you for the critism that you gave me, you saved me many dollars!

deanb - thanks.

i guess what i don't get is WHY do people take this stuff personally? most of us here are professionals and we give professional advice when we do give it. FREE professional advice - that's fucking cool!

when i say a web page has no flow to the join page, i'm not saying the webmaster is a moron, i'm just saying the page doesn't lead the surfers to the join page. sometimes a cigar is just a cigar, ya know? ;)

why do people ask for opinions if they don't actually want them? why not just say:

hey, check out my new site!

Its called an ego *grin*

When people post something and ask for an opinion, many times, as I did, we want a "hey that is great, you are the best"..... they go into it asking for critism but expecting praise.... that is the problem... and when they don't get it, it comes off as harsh.....

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Originally Posted by basschick

i guess what i don't get is WHY do people take this stuff personally? most of us here are professionals and we give professional advice when we do give it. FREE professional advice - that's fucking cool!

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It's not at all that people don't want the advice they ask for (well, I can think of an exception to that, but...) I think, as Dean said, sometimes there's a lot of ego attached to something, particularly if they've put a bunch of time into it.

I'm sure when Dean put up the first draft of his DVD cover (on another board), he wasn't expecting people to say "Well, this doesn't work, and fix that, and this other thing isn't what people will want to see..." but... as a result of his listening to the advice, he came up with a cover that is MUCH stronger and will sell a lot better.

The people that are smart put their ego aside and take what's offered. The people that get stuck in their own ego waste a ton of time, and, in the worst case, come back and blame something else after they were told what mistakes they were making.

I am delighted to work with Patti on these issues because she does make it clear what's right and what isn't. And if everyone did that, the development cycle for a lot of us on tours, site ideas, etc would be much shorter.

The trade off is that it does sting sometimes when you realize that something you thought was really good actually sucks. But better to learn *before* you've spent money promoting it, pissing off sponsors, whatever.

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Originally Posted by gaybucks_chip

When I first started reading Patti's posts a couple years ago, I was thinking "Boy, she's harsh" but then I realized that the no-BS approach is exactly what everyone needs if they can get past their own egos.

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agreed! , my thoughts at first but then it occured to me the other day while i was at T.G.I.F stuffing two pieces of vanilla bean cheescake down my throat (food helps me think!) that it would seem we are more "comfortable" hearing harsh comments comming from a friend/acquaintance because we expect them to tell us the truth v.s being hit cold by someone we don't know and/or doesn't know us (does that make any sense to anyone?)
in short life is about learning , so i thought i'd add this to the discussion , as with anything i post copy the nude pics to a folder and disregard the rest , your attention as always is appreciated! :)

sincerely ~ ..."ben" - michael jackson (okay , so some of you i fondly think of as a pet "rat") :fool:

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Originally Posted by basschick

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why do people ask for opinions if they don't actually want them? why not just say:

hey, check out my new site!

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On some "site review" posts, I suspect the poster is really just trying to drive webmaster traffic to the site. With the "site review" pretext, the poster can post in the general industry-type forum (and get more traffic) rather than just post in the spam/announcement forum. Think of sites that have an affiliate program.

Thanks for starting this thread. I am about to start asking for opinions on some designs I am currently working on. Hopefully I'll actually get some honest feedback.