Oy vey, VISA again...

It seems that this is the time of year when the nazi bastards running the VISA corporation do their think-tanking. Just this week we were given a "warning" from the "good" people at VISA (using CC-Bill as the messenger) that we were to strike certain language from our content or risk losing our VISA account.

Question 1: How far beyond the scope of their enterprise does this heavy handedness run? Visa is a conduit that acts to deliver money from point A to point B... when did that change to include dictating content?

Question 2: Does this not technically infringe on First Amendment rights? I did not know the Bill of Rights had been sold to the Visa Corporation and that they could enact censorship.

Question 3: What is necessary to begin a class-action suit against them for their heavy-handedness? As it stands, we cannot speak out on our websites about Visa's behavior if we are using any Visa product, we cannot even so much as mention their name, we cannot charge a surcharge to customers who elect to use their Visa card in order that we make back the annual fee (read: loss) Visa charges us, and now Visa feels it has the right to enact content control over our websites. As merchants, we are certainly in the class of injured party. So what can be done to begin a class action suit against a corporation that practices "going too far"?

I know Visa is an electivc service, and one can elect to not use them if one so desires. What I fear now is that Visa will set a precedent of censorship which will continue to escalate. At what point will they draw the line? No nudity? No foul language?

Despite my sole venture into a boycott against Visa a few years back (one that was not supported by this industry), I have begrudgingly put up with all the company's previous actions assuming that I had to do so in order to stay in business. But this censorship is the last straw. In addition to a class-action suit against Visa, I am seriously considering saying "fuck it" and dropping them completely. They have indeed gone too far by telling me ~ scratch that... THREATENING me over words they don't want me to use on my website.

Oh, and the word of the day: RAPE
Use it in a sentence: "It is apparent that when it comes to rape the VISA Corporation doesn't want any competition."

Any thoughts? Anyone agree?

I can asnwer your Question #2: Does this not technically infringe on First Amendment rights? I did not know the Bill of Rights had been sold to the Visa Corporation and that they could enact censorship.

NO.

The First Amendment only protects your Freedom of Expression from government censorship. The Government cannot tell you not to use the word "rape" but VISA can tell you not to use the word if they serve your website.

We have the freedom to express ourselves. Nobody is required to listen and nobody is required to financially support our expressions.

hey chad please check your email, thanks

This is old news. REALLY old, as in more than 3 years.

Visa is in the business of processing transactions. It's a risky business on a number of fronts, and Visa also has to deal with compliance issues with the federal state governments in which it operates.

As such, Visa has regulations that help to reduce its risk and to ensure it complies with federal and local regulations.

Your site had to go through Visa (as well as CCBill) compliance when it was originally approved to process Visa. If you're now getting a notice from Visa of noncompliance, it's most likely because you changed something after the site was approved, rather than "increased censorship by Visa."

While I'm not delighted with the occasional tapdances that we have to do to meet Visa regulations, I do understand why they are in place. the Visa cardmember association is greedy and wants money. If they weren't subject to governmental regulation and various risks (fraud, CP, etc), you can bet they'd process for anything because they want the money.

I'm not trying to be a cheerleader for Visa. I'm just saying that I think your sentiments are misplaced. If you don't like the way Visa does business, don't do business with them. There's Mastercard, Discover, and ACH. But you'll lose about 70% of your revenues. If you want that 70%, then you have to put up with Visa's policies - most of which, concerning adult, are likely backdoor deals with the US justice department.

For me I do not really care that much about text, if they ask I will change it NP (unless its the title of my site). I just have a problem when they will not let me use legal images, I will fight a bit about that because its a bitch to change and those are the images I picked to promote the site.

I would always make sure that you can update and your sites as far as images in the tour and text, you might have to or just want to change it. I would also get the name a front of the text your designer used just for updates.

Remember all this bullshit - before you cast your votes at the polls please!!

:cowboy: *Out with cowboy diplomacy*
Hillary Clinton 2008 A new mom for America!

I'll agree that some of the rules set by the credit card companies are very stringent, however, I understand that they are merely looking after their own/best interests (like a corporation is supposed to).
So, if they want to apply new terms or rules, daily, to those that use their service, so be it - it is up to them to do as they please.
After all, nobody is forcing us to use them - we are merely using one of many payment/purchase systems that are already in place, because it makes life easier.

Do not like their rules? Prepare to have an even bigger bite taken from your wallet and use anything BUT them!
Cash (mail-in); money orders (mail-in); alternate cards; dialers; pay-by-phone; token systems; money or fine metal currency exchange/traders etc. (Christ - these are things we all should already be using ... JUST IN CASE!) The choices are limitless, really.
You/we simply decided to take the easy road. Yet, every time they decide to add a curve in the road we think they are breaching some "code of ethics" which suits us best, because they no longer are accommodating to our industry.

MAYBE if EVERY adult site stopped using them they would hear our cries and bend a little, but that is not going to happen because we are too money hungry and too quick to complain.
Our comfortable ways are being modified (change) and we are frightened.

Pull 'em up and do whatever it takes to ensure you do not support the system that you do not agree with. OR, align yourself with them (follow their rules and regulations) by doing what they ask.

Again: support the so-called Nazis, or don't!
It's up to you, and nobody else.

My two-bits, plus a bunch!
(MHO)

of course! you're a genius! my new membership prices:

1 month - .10 of one ounce of gold or 2 hours of labor (1 hour if skilled)
3 months - .25 ounces of gold, 5 hours of labor or 2 hours of programming
6 months - .40 ounces of gold, 9 hours of labor, 4 hours skilled labor or 1 hour of legal consultation if you are a lawyer

of course, those are only the recurring prices ;)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Paco

money or fine metal currency

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by basschick

of course! you're a genius! my new membership prices:

1 month - .10 of one ounce of gold or 2 hours of labor (1 hour if skilled)
3 months - .25 ounces of gold, 5 hours of labor or 2 hours of programming
6 months - .40 ounces of gold, 9 hours of labor, 4 hours skilled labor or 1 hour of legal consultation if you are a lawyer

of course, those are only the recurring prices ;)

---

I hope you know, darling, that I just shot some precious liquids out of my nose! My eyes picked out the magic word ... ounce :paco:

I was referring to e-gold(.com).
I believe many will like what they have to offer!

Oh, and the best part of their service ... NO REFUNDS or CHARGEBACKS!
Stop maggots dead in their tracks!
*drooling*

Yes, I know my addition is somewhat twisted, but I was merely trying to state that it does not mean the end.
Plus, WTF does one need to use the word rape? Just as bad as complaining about words such as seeP, l00letah and et cetera.
They should never be used to describe legal porn!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by gaybucks_chip

This is old news. REALLY old, as in more than 3 years.

Visa is in the business of processing transactions. It's a risky business on a number of fronts, and Visa also has to deal with compliance issues with the federal state governments in which it operates.

As such, Visa has regulations that help to reduce its risk and to ensure it complies with federal and local regulations.

Your site had to go through Visa (as well as CCBill) compliance when it was originally approved to process Visa. If you're now getting a notice from Visa of noncompliance, it's most likely because you changed something after the site was approved, rather than "increased censorship by Visa."

While I'm not delighted with the occasional tapdances that we have to do to meet Visa regulations, I do understand why they are in place. the Visa cardmember association is greedy and wants money. If they weren't subject to governmental regulation and various risks (fraud, CP, etc), you can bet they'd process for anything because they want the money.

I'm not trying to be a cheerleader for Visa. I'm just saying that I think your sentiments are misplaced. If you don't like the way Visa does business, don't do business with them. There's Mastercard, Discover, and ACH. But you'll lose about 70% of your revenues. If you want that 70%, then you have to put up with Visa's policies - most of which, concerning adult, are likely backdoor deals with the US justice department.

---

While I understand your point of view on this, I do have to say I come from a completely different perspective. Let's start with the basic premise that VISA is a SERVICE. We pay them for the service. That does not give them the right to dictate anything except the rates they charge for their service. I, as a "merchant" cannot dictate to them how they conduct their business; they have no place telling me how I run mine. Period.

The only reason VISA gets away with this kind of bullshit is because the bulk of the people who contract with them are spineless jellyfish who are too afraid to stand up for their own rights. So the SERVICE walks all over them because they won't tell VISA to fuck off when they pull this kind of shit.

Item number two... I don't see VISA as a corporation that conducts its business in a relatively benign manner... not after the cash-grab of a few years ago. Don't forget that only a few short months after they redlined the internet, VISA settled their multi-million dollar class-action lawsuit begun by Sears, Safeway, and Wal-Mart. They were poised to lose this suit that was brought about as a result of racketeering and strong-arming their merchants, and they faced a huge payout. And so they chose a segment of the market they knew would probably not fight back -- the adult internet market -- and raped it, garnering a huge sum of money almost overnight. Four months later, they settled the four-year-old lawsuit out of court and satisfied their debt to the parties of the suit... with OUR money. In return, they have given us NOTHING extra that we weren't getting before they chose to hit us up.

Their own website, incidentally, claimed at the time that the chargeback rate (which is the WMD excuse they used to justify the charges) was something like one tenth of one percent, a fact they were proud of. So VISA is not screwing us annually because of any real threat to security or their business. They are doing it because they can, and they feel secure in their assumption that we as an industry will just take it in the ass from them.

But they are still nothing more than a SERVICE and as such have no true legal authority (as far as I can tell) to dictate to us what content we can or cannot have on our websites... especially at the premium we pay them.

As I said, I am seriously contemplating taking the loss in revenue just for the peace of mind it will give me, and the ability to speak out loudly against them and their scumbag practices. No fucking credit card company is going to censor my content and tell me to be quiet about it.

I just wish more of you had that level of pride in your businesses. If as you suggest they are as greedy as you think they are (and I am not doubting that for a minute), the sooner that a critical mass of adult websites says "fuck you" and dumps VISA, the sooner they may actually back down. The adult industry contributes a ton of money to the credit card industry each year, in addition to the 'WMD' service fees we pay. Money is the only language they understand. Take that away, and we regain our clout.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by BarebackJack

While I understand your point of view on this, I do have to say I come from a completely different perspective. Let's start with the basic premise that VISA is a SERVICE. We pay them for the service. That does not give them the right to dictate anything except the rates they charge for their service. I, as a "merchant" cannot dictate to them how they conduct their business; they have no place telling me how I run mine. Period.

---

VISA has the right to tell you how to run your business in order for you to do business with them. They do get to dictate their terms and you can choose to accept or reject their service. In order to accept their provision of service you must play by their rules.

The restrictions on VISA are that they cannot turn you away based upon race, religion, or creed. They can tell you what type of content they will service and what language can be on your page if you want them to bill for you. VISA can legally dictate how your business operates and your only recourse is to not use them.

Sorry but you have no case.

One more point I feel is worth adding here... VISA also forgets (as I am sure most of us do) that they are actually beholden and dependent on US (as 'merchants') to exist, and not vice-versa. Sure, they make it easier for us to do business, as the service they provide bridges the gap between consumer and merchant and makes it possible to complete transactions without demanding cash upfront. However, if there were no need or desire for this service on our part, they would have no reason to exist. You can't successfully market a product or service nobody wants or needs.

Likewise, our businesses do not exist because VISA exists. VISA didn't create us. Our busiensses exist because we created them to fill a need in the marketplace. VISA is nothing more than the oil that keeps the business running smoothly.

These are points we need to keep in mind, lest we start letting the cart drive the horse.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by chadknowslaw

VISA has the right to tell you how to run your business in order for you to do business with them. They do get to dictate their terms and you can choose to accept or reject their service. In order to accept their provision of service you must play by their rules.

The restrictions on VISA are that they cannot turn you away based upon race, religion, or creed. They can tell you what type of content they will service and what language can be on your page if you want them to bill for you. VISA can legally dictate how your business operates and your only recourse is to not use them.

Sorry but you have no case.

---

I'd like to see that stand up in court. What other services are allowed to dictate to the companies they service? I can't think of any.

Take your mouth off of VISA's nipple, dude... the milk you're drinking is more like Kool Aid

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by BarebackJack

I'd like to see that stand up in court. What other services are allowed to dictate to the companies they service? I can't think of any.

Take your mouth off of VISA's nipple, dude... the milk you're drinking is more like Kool Aid

---

Jack, I earn zero dollars from VISA. I don't even accept VISA for payment. I don't make any rules, I just tell you what they are.

VISA is not breaking any rules by dictating to you what your pages must say or look like before they will process for you.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by BarebackJack

Let's start with the basic premise that VISA is a SERVICE. We pay them for the service. That does not give them the right to dictate anything except the rates they charge for their service. I, as a "merchant" cannot dictate to them how they conduct their business; they have no place telling me how I run mine. Period.

But they are still nothing more than a SERVICE and as such have no true legal authority (as far as I can tell) to dictate to us what content we can or cannot have on our websites... especially at the premium we pay them.

As I said, I am seriously contemplating taking the loss in revenue just for the peace of mind it will give me, and the ability to speak out loudly against them and their scumbag practices. No fucking credit card company is going to censor my content and tell me to be quiet about it.

---

And exactly what do you call what we all do to members/surfers/traffic?
We, too, are in the "service" industry.

We, too, are dictate constantly to our clients the terms & conditions of use, for a service, which they paid handsomely for.
So, exactly how is this any different?
It isn't, because at the end of the day, the decision to jump on board, or not, is solely theirs & ours

They (credit card companies - CCC), just like us, are merely a company whom, like us, have the right to do what ever is required to look after their future! They feel this is best, for them, so be it!

Speaking of legal obligations: (by law) a corporation MUST legally do whatever is best for the corp., so to look after or protect its/the investors.
At least that is how things fly in Canada (not sure about the U.S. of A.).

And so what if we pay them an annual fee, premium or whatever - that means nothing but the fact that we agreed to pay them for the PRIVELEDGE of offering them to our clients as a method of payment/alternate payment solution! Many are just pissed with their business decisions.

We all pay insurance companies (or at least those that are not maggots do) HUGE premiums, yet they change terms, and dictate to us, constantly.
Why is that any different, or how are the CCCs any different?

IF anything, the insurance corporations are the ones that have no "legal rights" because vehicle owners are truly forced to have coverage (insurance).
NOT credit cards!

Hell, I do not even agree with regulating interests rates, because, & again, no body is forcing anybody to have or use CCs! So there is no way in hell I'd ever agree with this ideology.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by BarebackJack

I'd like to see that stand up in court. What other services are allowed to dictate to the companies they service? I can't think of any.

Take your mouth off of VISA's nipple, dude... the milk you're drinking is more like Kool Aid

---

ANY company that does business is allowed to dictate (as long as they don't discriminate against protected classes, which gay webmasters are not) what customers they will or will not do business with.

Many webmasters will not accept members from certain foreign countries due to fraud problems.

Some doctors won't accept certain patients who are in a class that's litigation prone.

CCBill doesn't process for sites that it feels skirt too close to the line of acceptability in terms of cardmember association rules

Practically every restaurant you visit has "We reserve the right to refuse service to anyone" written on their menus.

Some affiliate programs don't accept affiliates if they aren't comfortable with they way those affiliates market, or for other reasons.

All of these are entirely legal and permissible.

The Visa cardmember association is a business. It is not a monopoly business, so it is not subject to government oversight in the way that, for example, Greyhound Bus Lines (as the only interstate bus company in the US) is.

And... when you're getting (free) advice from the attorney that probably represents more of the major companies in the gay adult industry than any other, telling you that you have no case, you might do better to accept the advice than insult him.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by BarebackJack

I'd like to see that stand up in court. What other services are allowed to dictate to the companies they service? I can't think of any.

Take your mouth off of VISA's nipple, dude... the milk you're drinking is more like Kool Aid

---

Visa could instantly stop processing for adult websites and they wouldn't even notice it on their bottom line. Thanks, but I'll keep suckling on Visa's teet. ;)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by BarebackJack

The adult industry contributes a ton of money to the credit card industry each year, in addition to the 'WMD' service fees we pay. Money is the only language they understand. Take that away, and we regain our clout.

---

One more point:

FirstData is the largest bankcard processor in the US. They control some ungodly percentage of Visa/Mastercard processing that happens in the US.

About a year and a half ago, they dropped all of their remaining adult clients, after having not accepted new ones for a long time. IBill was one of those. (So, I heard, were CCBill and Epoch.) If you combine the revenues of Ibill (in 2002) with CCBill and Epoch, you have the vast majority of the adult processing business. Yet First Data dropped that business in the blink of an eye.

The adult industry isn't nearly as powerful a force in the marketplace as you'd like to believe. At the point it becomes too much hassle for the cardmember associations to deal with adult clients, they will simply drop them.

Boycotting is very unlikely to get you anywhere.

Oh... 1/10 of 1% of ALL Visa transactions is an insanely large number. Probably bigger than the entire GNP of a number of smaller countries. But Internet and adult transactions are a much, much larger portion of the chargebacks. That's why the high-risk registration and so forth.

Visa does not want to process for sites with certain wording. Bank Of America will not accept accounts from customers in the adult industry or liquor industry.

It's not discrimination. Just like you have the right to block .ru or .cn from accessing your websites.

If you want to play in their sandbox, you have to play by their rules.