War on Affiliates?

Seems now days that affiliates are being attacked from every angle by the very people they spent countless hours to promote and work with.

From member sites that can not be bothered with any new webmasters or people that do not make them 1000’s of dollars a week. In fact this one bothers me the least if they are that shortsighted, and have fallen for their own ego trips about how the world can not live with out their content then I say FUCK THEM!!!!!!

To the AVS network that does little but, blame affiliates for their troubles, over charge their views with these “premium membership’s” redirect/suppress your traffic in their directories, and come up with a endless assault of new affiliate rules that’s real intent is too improve their upsales sales, at your expense. With out giving us anything new to work with/market in what 10 years, and the affiliates wanting traffic for providing content, and creating sites for them is the big problem?

Now the one that bothers me the most now is some of these link list, that say how after all these years that they do not really need us at all. Hell they say all their traffic comes from search engines, but who’s traffic, content, sites, and refereed linking got them this search ranking and viewers to start with? These guys now do nothing, but minimize the exposure they provide your links by in most cases not really listing your sites for more than 1 week, hiding your links the best they can, placing your links under 100’s of upsales links/company sites they created, coming up will all kind of rules again to flat out make it almost impossible with the combination of rules against the number of sites they will list a week for most affiliates to do much more than just survive.

It really seems to me that their is a real conscious effort to consolidate some/most of these link lists with a few members sites affiliate programs and cut webmaster/us out of all but about 1% of the pie. Its really horrible to me to see a job I did for so long to be eradicated like this especially like I said from the same people we worked with for so long. Do we really think its best of the industry to make affiliates nothing more than hobbits for the most part only looking to maybe make up for the cost of the membership to said site they pay for? And let a small number of people that could probably sit around my kitchen table, control everything. This is a disaster of upsales, boring sites, bland content, generic themes, safe porn, interchangeable sites, and does make the few that remain a BIG and much easier target for the Right Wingers for even more lawyerfication on this industry. That in the end will lead to nothing but a hollow shell of a industry that I truly loved.

I never considered LL owners or TGP owners as business partners. They are webmasters, just like me and you. They have their own business model, and it may or may not coincide with mine. They are affiliates too in most cases.

They have created a kind of directory, which means essentially they rely on the freesites/AVS sites/galleries they get submitted to, as their content. If their rules aren't good for the submitters, those will eventually dwindle away. Just do what's good for you there.

I could count the number of LL that do not do this kind of crap on one hand now, the problem is at this time we do not have much of a alternative, and we are systematically being exterminated by the people we are feeding. I hate to keep using this word but I am really horrified at the thought of NO real LL in 2-4 years, this is not a joke or BS its happening now.

At what point does it become almost worthless for us to send and create sites to these guy, and really that’s what they want is to be able list almost all their own collections of upsales from a selected group of members sites in their so called directories.

Sure some will keep listing some webmasters sites on like page 12 of their directories for a week or something so they can still call themselves a LL, but looks to me like all their goals revolve around cannibalizing a affiliates opportunity to exist. While claming to wanting to improve their directories, lets get real the only thing they really care about improving is their bottom line. Its ok to care about your bottom line don’t get me wrong, but its almost like we bought them a house and they are bitching that we are walking on the lawn now.

I say if these guys are going to keep going in this direction they should just stop pretending a LL. :shit:

Max, they're in this to make money too.
Yes, some of them have outrageous, draconian rules... but just don't submit to the ones that do. It's really that simple.

If it bothers you so much, then open your own LL and have the rules you feel a LL should have. Better yet, put up a hub listing all the sites you've ever made and generate your *own* SE traffic off of them (the same way you say the LLs did). Then you can do whatever you want with it, send it to wherever you like.

And if it *really* bothers you, then request that all of your sites be removed from those directories you've got a gripe about.

The point is, they *don't* control the industry. The only thing they control is their own LL. Webmasters have hundreds of other options, such as submitting to other LLs, building SE sites instead of rule-conforming LL free sites, getting traffic via alternate methods, building their own LLs, etc.

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Originally Posted by maxpower

I hate to keep using this word but I am really horrified at the thought of NO real LL in 2-4 years, this is not a joke or BS its happening now.

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I have to say, if there were no TGP's and LL's, I think it would only benefit me as a webmaster and an affiliate. These places just get surfers used to the "freeloaders" atmosphere. When you market your site as links to free sites, people think that there's so many free sites on the net, why pay for any site?

I can see where you're coming from, and it can be frustrating, I'm sure, if you've optimized your marketing efforts in that direction. I come from mainstream. I didn't know what LL's and TGP's even were when I started. I did sites the way I do them in mainstream and that's all. Trying to SEO, tons of text, gradual building of links and lots of patience ;) No instant traffic at all. It can take literally years to see significant traffic for some of these pages, but that's what I was used to from mainstream. It's where I think I may have a certain qualitative edge, so for me, the less LL's and TGP's on the net the better ;)

BTW, I did give FS a try at some point. Made about 100 FS and they are still out there. It can be nice instant traffic, but i found that it didn't convert too well for me, so I stopped and now I'm trying blogging and splogging (both ways ;)).

Ya change is really hard for me I guess, I am going to start looking into paying for traffic, Blog traffic, affiliate traffic, and try working out some special deals to get listed in visible places in some of these LL and AVS directories. I will be open to some other things too as well as I move away from LL and AVS listing as I have done them in the past. But the job that I originally did when I started will not exist much longer (well as a JOB anyway)

I guess that’s one of the worse things about getting older is the death of all the things around you that you loved. I just hope we can get some innovation soon that will open the market back up, but that is a pipe dream I guess.

FS what is this FS? (Free Sites) Trust me I make Free Sites now.

Max, according to you, AVS is dead and Link Lists are dying. I think you just aren't getting the traffic from them that you used to.

Let me make this simple.

Change your marketing plans and adapt your methods. Be creative. Optimize your sites and galleries for SE's. I've seen a few of your sites and you don't do any SEO that I'm aware of. Just adding a paragraph of real text to a site is better than nothing.

Start your own LL. Start a blog. Start a site that is completely different than anything already out there. You're bright, you can figure something out.

Buy traffic if you have to. People wouldn't buy traffic if they weren't capable of making money from it.

Exchange links with other webmasters that do similar niches as you. Make friends. Collaborate with other webmasters. You have to give a little to get a little.

And don't use the excuse that you don't have the time. If your old methods are no longer working, then you have nothing but time!



.

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Originally Posted by Xstr8guy

Max, according to you, AVS is dead and Link Lists are dying. I think you just aren't getting the traffic from them that you used to.

Let me make this simple.

Change your marketing plans and adapt your methods. Be creative. Optimize your sites and galleries for SE's. I've seen a few of your sites and you don't do any SEO that I'm aware of. Just adding a paragraph of real text to a site is better than nothing.

Start your own LL. Start a blog. Start a site that is completely different than anything already out there. You're bright, you can figure something out.

Buy traffic if you have to. People wouldn't buy traffic if they weren't capable of making money from it.

Exchange links with other webmasters that do similar niches as you. Make friends. Collaborate with other webmasters. You have to give a little to get a little.

And don't use the excuse that you don't have the time. If your old methods are no longer working, then you have nothing but time!



.

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Well this Dead and Dying, stuff is a bit much but not that far from the truth for most affiliates stand point anyway. They are definitely on the down slop or on the way out, as they stand now.

I do add text for the SE on all my AVS sites now been doing that for years now, but would like to get more of that traffic in the future.

I would love to start a free LL, but getting listings/sites and traffic for this could be a big problem with all I have to do now to pay the rent. I would really not mind listing a huge amount of you guys free and Avs sites, but not sure I can return much traffic.

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Originally Posted by maxpower

but not sure I can return much traffic.

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"From Acorns, Oak trees grow"

If your own LL (or anything for that matter) is something you truly desire, allot 45 minutes a week to a folder on your desktop called '45minutes'

In that folder start your first index page, every week just do your one 45 minute stint, even if that day you actually have more time, just do 45 minutes. It may take you 6 months, but sure enough it will grow and develop.

You'll be amazed how much you can get done in just 45 minutes...

try it

Good Luck
Dave

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Originally Posted by ArmpitLover

"From Acorns, Oak trees grow"

If your own LL (or anything for that matter) is something you truly desire, allot 45 minutes a week to a folder on your desktop called '45minutes'

In that folder start your first index page, every week just do your one 45 minute stint, even if that day you actually have more time, just do 45 minutes. It may take you 6 months, but sure enough it will grow and develop.

You'll be amazed how much you can get done in just 45 minutes...

try it

Good Luck
Dave

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Well creating a LL is not the problem man LOL, its getting enough traffic for it so webmasters will submit their sites/return links. Really LL are for the most part very simple sites to create, I could really create a good LL in what 3-4 weeks? But why would you or anyone list sites in my LL with out any real traffic for them? We all have stuff to do, and sending sites to a LL that has no real traffic is not going to be at the top of most peoples list. If I had the money to pay for SE listing maybe I could pull it off, but right now I have to pay for listing for a members site as it is.

Really in a way it does not seem many of these LL are doing to good, so might not be the best use of my time hell its almost like me creating a new AVS now LOL. Not really sure most of these LL sites are very profitable, if they are then I hope they go to hell for the way they are acting. This has got me thinking a bit, when is the last time we had a good LL come out? Hell I still just about send sites to the same people I always have, and if anything have lost some good LL over the years.

What? It is just a typical give (lip) & take (lip) relationship. Give flack, so you must be ready to accept it!

Webmasters have been harping on and bashing away at sponsors/program for many MANY years! Now, simply because you see that a mere FEW have decided to take back the reins, this surfaces?

I am sorry to say that I do not see the rise of a conspiracy. I only see a small group whom has decided to look after themselves and stop being the only ones that bend while in a mutual relationship.
To continue along with my playing the devils advocate: when a used car sales person does not make their quota for the month they get skidded … toast … form # BR6!
Now exactly how is this different? After all, we all are guilty of doing this to sponsors.

I simply love the way webmasters expect to choose the sponsors they want to work for/with, but when the tables are turned, they hold up a red-card.
We all know that many webmasters make all sorts of demands, and they are typically accepted (tasks performed). HOWEVER, if a sponsor updates terms & conditions, once, the ground separates and flames begin to lick the sky while the stench of brimstone can be sensed throughout the online world.

Seems this one-sided affair has become too comfortable for some.

A ratio I am really interested in is the total number of sponsor bashing post to the total number of webmaster bashing posts.
I/d be surprised at anything lower than 10:1

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Originally Posted by maxpower

Well creating a LL is not the problem man LOL, its getting enough traffic for it so webmasters will submit their sites/return links. Really LL are for the most part very simple sites to create, I could really create a good LL in what 3-4 weeks?

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AND WE HAVE COME FULL CIRCLE, Max.

How do you think a link list gets traffic. In the beginning, they take anything just to build traffic, build inventory, and get their product out there. Are they using people? Absolutely. "Wanna put up a FHG with three recip buttons? Sure go ahead. Whatever, just send me galleries."

Now keep in mind that a new link list owner is entering new territory. They have no idea what they're getting themselves into and there's lots to learn. And then, as those galleries start coming in and they start to see what webmasters are doing, the LL owner starts to learn new things.

One of my realizations was, "Geez, I've got a lot of webmasters who are just placing three buttons on a sponsor's FHG and submitting it. I could do that and I sure don't need 40 copies of the same FHG in my link list." So you create a rule that says you're not taking FHG anymore. This pisses off those webmasters who submitted them (and incidentally who helped you build the LL in the first place). But if the LL is going to survive long-term, you have to start offering a better product to the surfer.

When Adult Check collapsed, Mancheck raised their minimum picture requirement from 25 to 50, presumably because they didn't want to get inundated with lots of Adult Check's castoff garbage. They needed to maintain the integrity of their product or surfers would lose interest.

Likewise, when a LL starts getting inundated with lots of the same content, they may raise their standards from 12 pictures to 18. Again, a certain number of wm's are pissed off and start submitting.

If a LL is getting a lot of submissions using the content of one particular sponsor, they may start picking and choosing what galleries to list, or ultimately they may stop listing the sponsor altogether. No one wants a LL with 400 galleries a week promoting the same thing. The surfers will leave.

And that's how it works Max. The LL owner is constantly engaged in a battle trying to keep their product fresh. Yes, the product is the wm submission, but many wm's will continue to submit the same 40 picture sets from His First Huge Cock over and over again because they think they're making money. And maybe they are making some money. But they continue to be lured by that $35 PPS, so they keep doing the same thing even it is means they have to submit more of the same stuff. Someone has to give them a nudge to change because they won't do it themselves.

If a webmaster grabs the latest 450 FHGs from Gay Gravy and throws them up on 100 link lists, even if they get 10 sales a day, they think they're doing something. They don't understand that they themselves are helping to diminish their own future sales by inundating the market with the same product. Eventually they just move on to the next PPS sponsor and flood the market with his stuff. Or, as sometimes happens, LL owners start to say, "I don't want this sponsor's content anymore."

See Max, the AVS, TGP, Link List market is really a big cat and mouse game: webmasters do XYZ, the entity (AVS/TGP/LL) has to implement a policy to forbid XYZ or institute a policy that only allows WXY but not Z. This pushes webmasters in a new direction. As wm's figure out how to get around the new WXY policy and come up with ABC tactic, the entity has to come up with a new policy to counteract the negative effects of ABC tactic.

Please Max, run your own link list. You'll be amazed at how much work it is and how hard it is to build traffic. You'll see things from the other side. Actually it's been a great experience for me because it's really helped me figure out (a) what works and what doesn't, but (b) more importantly how to market my own stuff better.

AVS, LL, and TGP owners aren't out there just to be mean to webmasters -- well some are perhaps -- but they are only trying to protect their products so the surfers keep coming back. Whether you think they're offering a good product is irrelevant, it's the product they have to offer at the moment. It's the one they feel works for them. They may not improve their product in ways that you think they should because (a) they don't believe you, (b) they can't afford to, (c) they don't want to, (d) they're blind and think their product is perfect the way it is, or (e) any number of other reasons.

Once the surfers are gone, wm's aren't getting clicks and they stop submitting, and once the wm's are gone whatever surfers are left leave, too.

So set yourself up with a link list and you'll start to learn a whole bunch of new things. And you'll start to understand why LL owners do some of the things they do.

Michael

Everyone's looking out for their own interests. This is business. If we're all in it to be charitable, someone let me know quick so we can get our exempt status and stop paying taxes.

At the root of even the most friendly and warm relationships is a mutually beneficial relationship on the business front.

If the mutual benefit in business wears off, expect to see that relationship disappear. No one's going to drive their business in to the ground because they wanna be nice.

How could you expect anything else?

2007 is going to be a major year of change for the industry, right now i know of 3 new affiliate programs that are going to be launching, but they are also going to be invite only, based on past performance and ability to deliver traffic and sales, not just traffic.

The unfortunate thing about this in my view, is its taken far to long to happen.

Will definately be good for everyones business though, despite all the bitching thats going to happen as more and more programs consolidate themselves.

Regards,

Lee

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Originally Posted by Dzinerbear

AND WE HAVE COME FULL CIRCLE, Max.

How do you think a link list gets traffic. In the beginning, they take anything just to build traffic, build inventory, and get their product out there. Are they using people? Absolutely. "Wanna put up a FHG with three recip buttons? Sure go ahead. Whatever, just send me galleries."

Now keep in mind that a new link list owner is entering new territory. They have no idea what they're getting themselves into and there's lots to learn. And then, as those galleries start coming in and they start to see what webmasters are doing, the LL owner starts to learn new things.

One of my realizations was, "Geez, I've got a lot of webmasters who are just placing three buttons on a sponsor's FHG and submitting it. I could do that and I sure don't need 40 copies of the same FHG in my link list." So you create a rule that says you're not taking FHG anymore. This pisses off those webmasters who submitted them (and incidentally who helped you build the LL in the first place). But if the LL is going to survive long-term, you have to start offering a better product to the surfer.

When Adult Check collapsed, Mancheck raised their minimum picture requirement from 25 to 50, presumably because they didn't want to get inundated with lots of Adult Check's castoff garbage. They needed to maintain the integrity of their product or surfers would lose interest.

Likewise, when a LL starts getting inundated with lots of the same content, they may raise their standards from 12 pictures to 18. Again, a certain number of wm's are pissed off and start submitting.

If a LL is getting a lot of submissions using the content of one particular sponsor, they may start picking and choosing what galleries to list, or ultimately they may stop listing the sponsor altogether. No one wants a LL with 400 galleries a week promoting the same thing. The surfers will leave.

And that's how it works Max. The LL owner is constantly engaged in a battle trying to keep their product fresh. Yes, the product is the wm submission, but many wm's will continue to submit the same 40 picture sets from His First Huge Cock over and over again because they think they're making money. And maybe they are making some money. But they continue to be lured by that $35 PPS, so they keep doing the same thing even it is means they have to submit more of the same stuff. Someone has to give them a nudge to change because they won't do it themselves.

If a webmaster grabs the latest 450 FHGs from Gay Gravy and throws them up on 100 link lists, even if they get 10 sales a day, they think they're doing something. They don't understand that they themselves are helping to diminish their own future sales by inundating the market with the same product. Eventually they just move on to the next PPS sponsor and flood the market with his stuff. Or, as sometimes happens, LL owners start to say, "I don't want this sponsor's content anymore."

See Max, the AVS, TGP, Link List market is really a big cat and mouse game: webmasters do XYZ, the entity (AVS/TGP/LL) has to implement a policy to forbid XYZ or institute a policy that only allows WXY but not Z. This pushes webmasters in a new direction. As wm's figure out how to get around the new WXY policy and come up with ABC tactic, the entity has to come up with a new policy to counteract the negative effects of ABC tactic.

Please Max, run your own link list. You'll be amazed at how much work it is and how hard it is to build traffic. You'll see things from the other side. Actually it's been a great experience for me because it's really helped me figure out (a) what works and what doesn't, but (b) more importantly how to market my own stuff better.

AVS, LL, and TGP owners aren't out there just to be mean to webmasters -- well some are perhaps -- but they are only trying to protect their products so the surfers keep coming back. Whether you think they're offering a good product is irrelevant, it's the product they have to offer at the moment. It's the one they feel works for them. They may not improve their product in ways that you think they should because (a) they don't believe you, (b) they can't afford to, (c) they don't want to, (d) they're blind and think their product is perfect the way it is, or (e) any number of other reasons.

Once the surfers are gone, wm's aren't getting clicks and they stop submitting, and once the wm's are gone whatever surfers are left leave, too.

So set yourself up with a link list and you'll start to learn a whole bunch of new things. And you'll start to understand why LL owners do some of the things they do.

Michael

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Thanks man, that was a well thought out statement, you really are much better at this verbalization stuff than I ever could be. I really just had to say something back after all that man, sorry its really late in the day for me and I can not go into all this now with ya. My brain is about to give out, I am sure you know how it is. :confused:

God I will say that I have not thought about Adult Check in so long man, I think I still have some of their AVS gateways around here someplace from 2001 :)

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Originally Posted by Lee

2007 is going to be a major year of change for the industry, right now i know of 3 new affiliate programs that are going to be launching, but they are also going to be invite only, based on past performance and ability to deliver traffic and sales, not just traffic.

The unfortunate thing about this in my view, is its taken far to long to happen.

Will definately be good for everyones business though, despite all the bitching thats going to happen as more and more programs consolidate themselves.

Regards,

Lee

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Well man, I am not sure that’s such a good idea in the long run, but I really could care less what some of these affiliates programs do. Personally I think most of the problems with these affiliate programs are not the webmasters its the sites/programs themselves. The sites are not performing as well as they used to for most people, so instead of fixing the problem they believe the affiliates are to blame. “AVS all over again” Hell if they get rid of enough affiliates maybe they could say their conversion rations are some of the best around with out changing a thing. That’s a winning plan if you ask me :) of course they will say different how the want to concentrate on their big sellers, but we all know the big guys need little help from some button pushing office EMP’s. This thank god will probably end in absurdity for them, I just hope I will be around to remind people how some of these programs acted when they try to come crawling back in 5 years.

I think you are right about big changes for the industry for 2007, but the ones I see coming are not really going to be good for many of us. I really just see allot of cock blocking going on, and all this Rep against webmaster crap that would never of happened 5 years ago. Maybe as the original webmasters that created these sites retire, these Reps can be done with it and micro manage their sites out of existence.