If you were just starting with your first site, which would you pick, and why.
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If you were just starting with your first site, which would you pick, and why.
Okay there are only 3 people online, so I know what each of you voted.. but you didn't say why!
This is a really tough call.
Three months ago, I would have said, without question, ccbill because they had the better affiliate software. But now Epoch has MPA-3 with cascading billing for free, and that's a pretty persuasive feature.
CCBill seems to have a little more depth in technical support, but I've never had a problem that Epoch couldn't resolve promptly.
And... Epoch has Patrick, who is a great resource and a strong supporter of the gay adult community (who, of course, Epoch stole from CCBill) and Rainey, formerly of Pridebucks.
I honestly don't think you can go wrong with either company, but I gotta say that Epoch is pulling out all the stops to get gay business.
This is exactly what I am thinking... right now I will not be starting without Nats, but will be moving over within 6 months of starting. My only thing that I have that is going FOR ccbill is the affiliates. I have actually had a person say, if you sign up for ccbill I will promote it.Quote:
Originally Posted by gaybucks_chip
So my thinking is, that CCbill obviously has built up the trust in people, and if one person thinks that, how many more of them are there?
I am about to open a Epoch affiliate program, and in fact I think I will get more than a few people join just to see the new and improved stats they offer affiliates. Not sure anyone can say they do not trust Epoch they have been around longer than Ccbill and really with people in the know are more trusted.Quote:
Originally Posted by deanb
Thanks, that is good to know.. I am going to talk with them tomorrow about their services and such.Quote:
Originally Posted by maxpower
Ya they have made some big strides here lately, they really are the best processor IMOQuote:
Originally Posted by deanb
To tell the whole truth I do have some problems with Ccbill, but I still think they offer site owners a better service now days
Epoch has had its share of complaints over its stats and support -- but they seem to be addressing or have addressed those issues.
CC Bill has a solid reputation, good support, solid history..
I think the CC Bill application process is a tad easier than Epoch.
If my evaluations ended there, I think it is a toss-up.
HOWEVER~
Since Patrick went to Epoch I do not believe that there is a single openly gay person in middle or upper level management at CC Bill. That is something that I find suspicious -- a company of that size, with that many employees, and they have straight guys soliciting gay companies. I have a lot of respect for the guys from CC Bill and I think they are top notch, but as a company CC Bill is kind of lacking in truly gay representation. CC Bill does have the Gay Phoenix Forum which is great but I just can't let go of the fact that a company of 100+ employees without a single gay person in management or even sales -- and Epoch, as a smaller company, could field an all-gay company softball team. Epoch definitely sends out a more diverse crew -- male, female, gay, straight, all colors, languages, and ethnic backgrounds. Now that I think of it, with the exception of Sherri WHO I LOVE, CC Bill is just white men.
If I were starting a gay paysite, I would want good reporting, good support, financial stability AND a company that not only throws money at the gay market but has diversity within its own ranks, and to me that puts the nod to Epoch.
I vote epoch :D Same reasons that have been mentioned already.
And Chad, great post ;)
I use Epoch
CCBill does, in fact, have a number of gay guys who work there, but they aren't out, and probably aren't in upper management either... Patrick mentioned this to me some time ago, and I sort of got the impression that perhaps it wasnt' quite as accepting a culture internally.
However, I have to say that Andy, our sales rep has been totally open and welcoming and I've never gotten even the slightest homophobic vibe from him.
I haven't found either the Epoch or CCBill process to be appreciably different in setting up -- both were easy for us -- but then again, we started processing with ccbill in 2002, so it may be more complex now.
BTW, dean, if you go with Epoch, I don't really see any reason to go with NATS over MPA3. If you were *paying* for MPA, I'd say get NATS instead -- lots of people have gone from MPA to NATS, but no one that I know of has gone NATS to MPA -- but if MPA is free with Epoch, I'd say go with that.
If we were in a different place and hadn't gone with NATS last year, we might well be considering the Epoch/MPA deal. The only thing that makes me uncomfortable is the REQUIREMENT that Epoch be first in the cascade. I mean, I completely understand it and think it's reasonable, given that the software is free, but I like the flexibility we have to change out processors on a whim if one is scrubbing too hard that day, or slow, or whatever... and Epoch doesn't allow that flexibility unless they are completely down. So that might make it worth paying for NATS if you're anal about redundancy. But other than that, I'd say the free MPA deal with Epoch is hard to beat.
ccbill is best known by a larger number of affiliates and also they allow you to marry multiple programs into one check. that's important if you want non-u.s. webmasters to promote your site, because they have to pay a fairly hefty amount for each check they deposit.
on the other hand, epoch treats webmasters more as individuals. when i call ccbill support, they don't know who i am - but rand and frank at epoch do, and when we were using them, so did tai and several other people there. i liked working with a company that thought of me as a human being. also epoch's new stats are pretty cool and if you want to do cross sales, upsells or stuff like that, i'd say epoch has more experience.
of course, one of the most important features of epoch's new stats - cascading - would mean you should have both epoch AND ccbill accounts. and there are some webmasters out there who would prefer to promote a ccbill-only program, so offering a ccbill only tour as well as an epoch cascading tour might get some affiliates you would have missed.
so my vote is for both. cascading will make you around 10% more sales and offering a main tour through epoch's cascading and also ccbill tour will grab you some more affiliates.
of course, if you go with nats, you can change the order of which processor comes first in the cascade - very useful once in a while...which ALSO means both epoch AND ccbill...
Until Epoch gets their stuff together and allows affiliates to merge all of their accounts into one cheque, I'll always prefer ccbill. Signing up with unique logins for every site you want to promote is a pain.
Michael
I happen to be right in the midst of looking for a credit card processor for a new gay site I am building...So thank you to all of you for your valuable information.
As an online surfer / customer I can tell you that I trust CCbill when providing my own credit card information. I don't know why, but I have a trust with CCbill. So my original thought when looking for a CC processor was to go to CCBill.
As a soon to be webmaster, I have solicited information form my other webmaster buddies, and they all seem to converge with CCbill. However, you definitely given me food for thought.
For the somewhat novice guy here...Could I ask what the abbreviations, MPA, MPA3, and NATS all mean??
a good point, and one i've heard from other surfers who are personal friends. they have joined paysites that use ccbill, never had a problem, and feel that they are trustworthy.
MPA, MPA3 and NATS are simply names for the programs. MPA is from mansion productions (the M and P in MPA and MPA3, which is the third released version) and NATS is Next-Generation Administration and Tracking System. they are both tracking systems that allow webmasters much more information and control then simply using epoch or ccbill.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrikyyz
For me it comes down to ease of use for affiliates and where i feel comfortable personally.
There is no doubt that more affiliate webmasters have a CCBill account than have Epoch account and that more affiliates feel more comfortable with using and joining CCBill programs.
Of course Epoch are now going after the gay market with a vengence but imho i do think it is to little to late, whilst both processors have their pro's and con's i also communicate better with the folks at CCBill on all levels, and always have done.
I can only really think of 1 time where i have ever had a 'conversation' with Rand, that was in San Diego a few years ago, on the other hand, i have spoken to numerous CCBill reps over the years, for good lengths of time, about a wide range of different subjects, even before i was a client of theirs.
That being said, i wouldnt say that my opinion on either processor was based on being friendly with anyone at either company, in fact, whilst i would say ive made some great contacts at CCBill, i wouldnt call any of them 'friends' in the true sense of the word... More aquaintances.
Im in business to make money not friends, sure making friends is a great by-product of doing good business but if i want to make friends, id be down the pub, not running a business.
Most reps at most companies (processors, hosts, sponsors) know how to talk-the-talk at the shows, just as i do, however, im going to go with whoever makes me the most money long-term, across different revenue streams because after all, once the shows are are over you are just another potential client that was spoken to at a show to justify the expense of sending the rep to the show in the first place.
You also have to look at how a company aligns itself and who it aligns itself with in the industry. Again for the most part this is part of 'playing the game' but when it comes down to it, im going to choose whomever i feel more comfortable doing business with and for me, right now thats CCBill.
Choosing a company based on how 'gay' they, or their reps are is a bad way to make business decisions imho.
Regards,
Lee
I will never use CCBill, I met the owners daughter twice, once at a private party here in FL and once at a convention and she was a freaking rude snob both times. So for that reason alone I will never use CCBill.
me, i couldn't care less if someone's daughter, who isn't even involved inthe business, is rude. all that matters is whether the companies i work with do well for my business. i'm sure we all have asshole relatives but i expect to be judged by how i do business - not whether my relatives are assholes.
ccbill has 24/7 phone support from people who have always been courteous and there's corvett on icq when i need that extra little bit of info. they also pay on time and are popular with both webmasters and surfers.
at this moment in time, they have one other feature i need - although rand says that will soon be available with epoch. rand, btw, if you see this thread, is there any word on that yet? and will you please add me as a friend on adult who's who? ;)
Quote:
Originally Posted by LiveTwinksCam
She is involved in the business and she was representing the business, that is why she was at the private party for the adult industry and that is why she was at the convention in Hollywood FL, which were the two places I mentioned.
I will choose a company based on how diverse it is, the causes it supports, its service to the communities it is in. I won't shop at Wal Mart. I checked the HRC scores for automakers before buying my truck --eliminating Nissan from the list of possibilities because of their dismal diversity score. I won't make my decision based on those diverse issues--I won't buy crap just because the company is run by lesbians and donates money to AIDS charities--but there are a lot of factors in that decision and good citizenship is just one.
Lee makes his choice only on factors that directly affect the bottom line, which is certainly reasonable. However, when all other things are equal, I want to patronize companies that are diverse in their workforce. And Lee, you are always welcome in my neighborhood.
But what about when even that is equal?Quote:
Originally Posted by chadknowslaw
CCBill does have gay employess and reps to this day.
Regards,
Lee
I don't see them as equal. I am not aware of CC Bill management-level or sales rep that is openly gay. Other than Sherri, they are all straight white men. Great guys, but it is a factor I would use to judge the company. Like I said above, it is one factor of many and I won't buy crap just because the company is diverse or environmentally conscious.
However, if all things are equal, then move on to more factors. Does one company donate money to save spotted owls and the other donates to no charity?
Has one company been in business longer than the other?
Is one a member of the Better Business Bureau and the other not?
If all things are equal, it is not hard to find another yardstick to move your preference to one.
Yes Epoch having good in-house gay representation is a BIG factor for any gay site owner. Just being familiar with available gay content and language we use could save many of you allot of headaches TRUST ME on this one :rain:
I have not been on the boards as of yet, so this thread seems as good a time as any to jump in.
I have to thank Lee for his comments, as they are similar to my thoughts on this. Just as I would not vote for a politician solely because he or she is gay, I would not choose a service that directly affects my bottom line because someone in the company management is a friend of Dorothy.
I am an openly gay employee at CCBill, and it is a terrific environment to work in, since it doesn’t matter what your sexual orientation is - it is what you contribute to the company that matters here. I have had a great time meeting a lot of our clients, both current and future, at the recent Internext Expo in Vegas and the GAYVN Summit/Awards this past weekend in SF. Good discussions at both events on how to leverage both payment systems for to make the most of their businesses.
CCBill obviously sees the visible financial investment by other players in marketing and promotions, ie - logo'd pens, luggage tags, and sponsorships of gay events, and we do fully support their efforts. But while we have not been investing in logo'd giveaways at these events, we have been working behind the scenes on development of our application services to increase the bottom line of our clients, such as our asset management solution and the latest in streaming technologies and stats.
Plus, I can be the first to talk about the upcoming releases of our next generation of CCBill tools and services, which is due to roll out over the next few months - including our new Web Marketing Service (think Affiliate System on steroids), a totally NEW user-friendly Admin with cascading functionality, digital store front builder/shopping cart and global load balancing on all transactions, to ensure 100% up time...not to mention our Gateway services for Merchant Accounts.
OK – blah, blah, blah - total company ad – but hope you can see that we have reinvested in our company, building our tools to support online business – gay and straight.
It is terrific to read the perspectives and discussion, but I personally would rather have more tools for my business than another branded neck pillow.
I just wonder how many of the Ccbill votes in this poll were made by people that work for them :morning: I am not sure what support they give others all I can say is they told me that I could not use some of the most famous gay models in the world on my tour or in my members area. And they did not care about any facts I could provide them, I guess it came down to me not being able to use the same 100% legal content others could and do use every day. :hmm:
No they didnt, they told you that you couldnt represent those images as child porn, which is what you were doing and everyone on GWW knows this.Quote:
Originally Posted by maxpower
Regards,
Lee
This is NOT true, I was more than open to change any text, (that really was no big deal) How could I represent and content as CP inside my members area? Its not like I was telling people they are 12 year olds, all I did was list the images in the sets.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lee
Personally I will never trust them again, I can not build my sites with a company that could turn on me at any moment. If it comes down to it I would use NATS, and have processors that will have my back, rather than gambling on what they might say looks like CP next, and forcing me to remove exclusive or even non exclusive content that I worked hard to create from my members area just to keep my account open. Sure if you run Hunk sites, this is NP but anyone that runs Twink sites should be aware of this.
Your loss, Max.
We've been through that a dozen times. They didn't turn on you, you submitted text at one point, the completed tour with text at another, and the combination of the text and pics made a tour that was uncomfortably close to CP in ccbill's opinion. It's possible they are just a little more conservative, but honestly, I don't think that's a bad thing at all... they're just doing their best to ensure they have a good relationship with the Visa association, which is ultimately to everyone's advantage.
I am really not trying to start to much crap over this, but most of you guys have NO idea how hard I did try to make them happy. This included offering to change ANY text, I even was open to replacing the models in the tour they had a problem with, and of course I have ID’s and could show where ALL the content came from (please keep in mind I gave them a VERY clean 1 page tour to start with) None of this was satisfactory to their Bank, the bank was really the problem here. I was told I could not use about 30% of the image sets I had including like I said before some of the most famous twink models in the world even inside my members area.Quote:
Originally Posted by gaybucks_chip
I am really sad about this, and it was VERY frustrating playing this guess how old he looks to me BS, but I am glad I found out now before I had 500-1000 recurring members with them. People are really taking this CP crap too far here lately when someone’s Opinion that does not even work or have any idea about our industry has the final word on what’s acceptable and what’s not.
Now I will say they did inform me months ago that they are open now to rereview the site, and I would love to us both of these guys. I just hate to have my hands tied, or to have to worry about one morning having my account deactivated because some guy that works in a bank does not like my 100% legal models. I have to think just a little bit all this is a loss for more than just me :crybaby:
I definetly say Epoch, especially now with there new mpa-3 deal for free. I was just at the gay avn show, and epoch was there in full force! Ccbill didn't even have one rep there! :rolleyes:Quote:
Originally Posted by gaybucks_chip
Indeed they didnt and you know why?Quote:
Originally Posted by Fatal Attractio
Because the Epoch/AVN show sponsorship contract has a clause which says no competitors can sponsor the show.
That means that NO other billing company or webmaster publication can sponsor any of the shows.
Despite the fact that AVN and Epoch have been happy to attend all of the CCBill functions for years.
Regards,
Lee
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lee
Guys, CCBill did have a rep at the GAYVN Summit - me! I just wasn't on any panels...
But I met some terrific people at the sessions and the parties - but obviously, I didn't meet all of you.
If this is true that would be very immature behavior on their part. XBiz does not shut out AVN from the XBiz shows, CC Bill does not shut out other processors from theirs. I thought only junior high girls would have a party where the girlfriend of their ex-boyfriend isn't invited to come.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lee
Lee, where did you get this nasty bit of info from??
Where the info came from is of no matter, just that its fact is all that is really of concern right now, at least until it is rectified :)Quote:
Originally Posted by chadknowslaw
Regards,
Lee
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lee
Oh, I wasn't trying to plug you for your source I was just trying to determine if it was credible. I don't know if you noticed, but there IS gossip on boards that is untrue sometimes....
If it is true, they should be slapped. If it is just rumor, well then.... no harm
:-)
Well right now i have absolutely no doubts about its credibility.Quote:
Originally Posted by chadknowslaw
Would be interesting if we could get Epoch/AVN to say that other processors and/or webmaster publications are able to sponsor their event in October.
Regards,
Lee
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lee
I agree. Especially if they were to allow a publication like cybesocket to sponsor but not XBiz; NetBilling but not CCBill. Such blatant favoritism would be undignified.
This whole backbiting crap needs to stop. There's room enough for everyone.
AVN isn't going to go away because Xbiz exists.
CCBill and Epoch both have plenty of clients.
AVN could be as loved in the expo business if they simply learned from the CCBill model.
If what Lee says is true, it's appalling both on AVN and Epoch's part. CCBill allowed Epoch to be a premium sponsor of Phoenix Forum and GayPF, in spite of the bad blood at the time over Patrick's move. Granted, it was a little childish for CCBill to schedule a sponsor dinner at the last possible moment, *after* Epoch had theirs already scheduled, and at the exact same time, but
ALL of these companies really need to work together and compete fairly, not play these sort of unprofessional games.
I would be more inclined to support the companies that support cooperation rather than separatism. This bullshit of actively trying to sabotage other shows by scheduling them at competing times, or shutting out competitors from sponsoring events is foolish, and will only damage their reputations in the long term.
Quote:
Originally Posted by gaybucks_chip
I have to stay impartial on this topic. But I do agree with your assessments of both companies. Both companies rock.