Are you less likely to promote a site that contains violence?

As gaywebmasters, are you less likely to promote a site that contains violence (like an edgy bondage/hostage/rape site) than a "normal" fetish site?

I recently was told by an affiliate that some of our spanking videos were too "violent for them to promote, and that since some of our story lines promote violence on gays that they were not going to promote us. I was wondering what your general take on this is?

(The story line in question was one called "Lunch Money" where a Jock harrasses an younger gay kid for his lunch money, then spanks him to humiliate him.)

The reason I ask is that we are looking to expand from spanking into more edgy bondage, etc.

The fact your post contained the words "younger gay kid" makes the whole issue sound slightly worrying to me.

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Originally Posted by samebb

The fact your post contained the words "younger gay kid" makes the whole issue sound slightly worrying to me.

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Well obviously it goes without saying that the model, and the character that he is portraying, is over 18. I guess I could have been more specific and said a college senior picking on a college freshman.

I defend anyone's right to produce anything that is within the bounds of free speech.

However, that said, we (Gaybucks / 18 West) do our best to portray situations that aren't degrading to the models. We've talked about dabbling with straight porn, but one of the reasons we've not experimented with it yet is it seems that the majority of straight porn involves degrading/"owning" the women involved in it.

I suppose if everyone's having a good time and/or enjoys producing the content then from my perspective it's fine to produce, but I would probably be reluctant to promote it.

I have seen a hell of a lot of porn, of all kinds--gay, straight, bi, I think I even reviewed one with midgets with stump arms fisting big beautiful women. [ok, just kidding about the midgets with stump arms] ;-)

I had the opportunity to review a video for possible obscenity issues. The vid was two naked women vomiting on each other. They were honestly having a GREAT time! They were laughing --big belly laughs-- and blowing chunks all over each other. There was really nothing degrading about it at all -- kinda gross, but the models were seriously enjoying what they were doing. Taking the entire video into consideration, I found no obscenity problems with it at all. To each his own, I guess.

we have not and will not promote sites portraying rape, kidnapping and any other depiction of non-consentual activities. this isn't a moral judgement - i feel this content is more likely to bring scrutiny from those i'd rather not be scrutinized by.

besides, i've seen some VERY realistic rape fantasy sites - so realistic that i had to question whether they were for real. i mean, seriously now - how do we KNOW which are fake and which might be the real thing? the only thing that would make me comfortable with these is if they did what some of the kinkydollars sites do and show the models smiling and obviously consentual in the last pic

http://www.fuckingmachines.com/updates/full0.php

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Originally Posted by basschick

i've seen some VERY realistic rape fantasy sites - so realistic that i had to question whether they were for real [/url]

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I saw things like that when I first went "online". Disappeared fast. How recently did you see sites like that?

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Originally Posted by basschick

we have not and will not promote sites portraying rape, kidnapping and any other depiction of non-consentual activities. this isn't a moral judgement - i feel this content is more likely to bring scrutiny from those i'd rather not be scrutinized by.

besides, i've seen some VERY realistic rape fantasy sites - so realistic that i had to question whether they were for real. i mean, seriously now - how do we KNOW which are fake and which might be the real thing? the only thing that would make me comfortable with these is if they did what some of the kinkydollars sites do and show the models smiling and obviously consentual in the last pic

http://www.fuckingmachines.com/updates/full0.php

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I saw a forced sex scene that was done almost like a documentary. They started with the two models sitting on a couch, fully clothed, talking about their fantasy of a forced sex scene. They explained how it would all work, what each person would do, they explained the "secret word" that the sub could say if he really wanted it to stop. With that discussion before the scene, and taken as a whole, you understood that both of the models knew what they were doing and that they both wanted to do it, even though it would appear to be forced sex. I still didn't care for it but it was one of the few ways a video could be shot and not be a rape shot.

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Originally Posted by chadknowslaw

I saw a forced sex scene that was done almost like a documentary.

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We have always been impressed with the folks at kink.com and how they always film a pre and post scene interviews.

Lifestyle BDSM folks understand the risk of play, but outside ppl might not know all the safety guards in place, so kink.com really does a great Service for their actors & their members.

Funny how `nilla the adult biz is. We decided after our first event, we would keep it BDSM lite within the industry. No way could they comprehend the dynamics and I doubt they would look at Roy in the same light, if they actually saw me tear him up. LOL! Wonder how fast they'd be gone, when I pull out the tazer?

Now Don Mike .. he'd understand our Family Motto ..

Quit whining, it will heal.

:donmike:

No matter how well you contectualize the content, you will have people adamantly refusing to promote your content.

My BDSM site was distinctly funny, very tounge in cheek - with happy smiling girls clearly enjoying thier degradation. Kink.com, whom we shared models with, also added this later.

However - even though some people won't promote you - I would encourage you to go for it. Well done gay BDSM is nearly non-existant on the web - the field is wide open, and if I weren't so busy doing MuscleHunks I would be going full bore into that market.

There are really SPECIFIC things you should and should NOT do if you are doing fetish / violence. First, always make a context - with text and photos clearly showing happy, consensual people before and after. Do not mix penetration with violence or bondage (that's rape - even though some of us seriously enjoy it), pepper your site with "Safe, Sane, Consensual" messages throughout.... and use humour wherever you can, just to keep it a bit lighter.

Then, when you have folks refusing to sponsor / promote you - you can invite them to investigate it more thoroughly.

Finally - get a webmaster who knows and understands and loves BDSM and Fetish, because if your webmastering team isnt into the content, well - most likely the site will be of the same old stereotypes of BDSM that people on both sides of the fence find so objectionable!

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Originally Posted by shaun

There are really SPECIFIC things you should and should NOT do if you are doing fetish / violence......Do not mix penetration with violence or bondage (that's rape - even though some of us seriously enjoy it),

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So you are saying that even if it is agreed upon before the shoot that there will be bondage AND penetration than it is rape? I had never heard this before.

And for the record, we always shoot a pre and post shoot interview with the models. The preshoot interview talks in great detail about what they are about to do, their personal fetishes, etc. The post interview talks about what they enjoyed, etc. etc. Although we rarely post the interviews on our site (people said that it ruined the fantasy for them.) We do have them should something come up.

Do you think that I should post the pre/post interviews on the site to make it clear to the member that what they are viewing is a fantasy? It seems to me that if you keep telling them it is fake, that could ruin the fantasy in some aspect...

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Originally Posted by gaybucks_chip

I defend anyone's right to produce anything that is within the bounds of free speech.

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Thanks.

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However, that said, we (Gaybucks / 18 West) do our best to portray situations that aren't degrading to the models.

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I have heard this argument a million times it seems. I guess my question is this: How is it degrading to the models if they are the ones that actively seek us out, request the shoot, and then perform in them? The majority, (Around 95% of our models) return for mulitple shoots...and I know it is not the pay...as we pay fairly low in terms of industry standards.

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I suppose if everyone's having a good time and/or enjoys producing the content then from my perspective it's fine to produce, but I would probably be reluctant to promote it.

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Which brings me back to my original question, of why? Why would you be less likely to promote? Just a moral judgement? Or business standpoint? etc.

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Originally Posted by TropixxxStudios

I have heard this argument a million times it seems. I guess my question is this: How is it degrading to the models if they are the ones that actively seek us out, request the shoot, and then perform in them? The majority, (Around 95% of our models) return for mulitple shoots...and I know it is not the pay...as we pay fairly low in terms of industry standards.

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I totally understand... we've had a couple of models who were into that sort of thing and wanted us to arrange shoots for them involving bondage and S/M (which just aren't part of our niche) so we politely declined :)

We do our best, as part of our business philosophy, to portray sexual activity in a healthy way that involves some level of balance or equality between the performers. I'm not saying that domination or submissiveness is inherently unhealthy; only that, from our perspective, it's a more delicate thing to portray in a healthy way both from the perspective of the model performing in it and the people watching.

We just try to produce content that will encourage people to have healthy sexual relationships, and AJ and I don't have enough understanding of the psychology behind imbalanced relationships to be able to ensure we can portray them in a healthy way. The very few experiments we've done in that regard are things like our tickling scenes, but even in those, almost always, the person tied and tickled then turns around and gets to tie down and tickle the person that tickled him when the first part of the scene is over.

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Which brings me back to my original question, of why? Why would you be less likely to promote? Just a moral judgement? Or business standpoint? etc.

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From a practical standpoint, it's not a niche we understand well. But putting that aside, I personally would probably not want to put energy into promoting content that made me feel uncomfortable. We have had some traffic people tell us they are uncomfortable promoting Boyfunk because they are uncomfortable about the youthful nature of some of our models, even though obviously they are all over 18, and I don't get offended when someone says that; I think it's the same sort of thing.

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Originally Posted by TropixxxStudios

we always shoot a pre and post shoot interview with the models. The preshoot interview talks in great detail about what they are about to do, their personal fetishes, etc.

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ohhh good idea

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Originally Posted by TropixxxStudios

So you are saying that even if it is agreed upon before the shoot that there will be bondage AND penetration than it is rape? I had never heard this before.


Do you think that I should post the pre/post interviews on the site to make it clear to the member that what they are viewing is a fantasy? It seems to me that if you keep telling them it is fake, that could ruin the fantasy in some aspect...

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I am about 5 years out of the fetish world now, so my information is out of date.... BUT, at the time we were doing it, you could NOT show bondage and penetration in the same shot. It was legally considered, according to our attorney's at the time... rape. Even if we had the girl yelling "please tie me up and slip me a big one".

So, we showed bondage, we showed penetration, we ordered them to indicate penetration and bondage were being performed at the same time, but we never showed the girl tied and penetrated at the same time. We started in the wild west days, and we were ultra paranoid.

As to telling them it is a fantasy... well, this kind of depends on your actors / models, and thier experience level. If the scene is ultra hot and it is clear that everyone is seriously getting off on it, it kind of doesnt matter what you say about it... great hot content will speak for itself!

Now, the world has changed a LOT in the last few years, and Kink.com has certainly blown the envelope out of the water (I love mixing my metaphors) ... but, with BDSM material, you really need to be careful in order to stay within the letter of the law, if staying within the letter of the law is important to you. That being said, I dont think anyone has been prosecuted on this in the US, and in Canada SweetErotica WAS charged on obscenity for this kind of material, but they prevailed.

Talk with an attorney who is up to the latest on this stuff, and determine how much risk you are willing to take in the event that the guvment ever does start prosectuting again - after all, it is election season, and the reichwing needs to start playing to thier base again soon.

Been doing this awhile.

Our free speech attorney has told us, that yes. . .penetration WITH bondage is considered rape. So we don't depict it. And incidentally, flogging or spanking someone tied up is a depiction of "torture", so we don't depict that either.

Another thing to consider- There have been over 20 years of studies by sex therapists on "Positive Outcome Rape" This is where it starts without consent then the girl (usually) decides she LOVES getting screwed by the guy and it changes to "oh yeah pound me harder". On the surface this seems ok, but what all the studies have shown is interesting. What they do is divide a large group of normal people into two groups. They show 50% a positive outcome (or fantasy) rape scene then a real violent rape scene. The other group they show regular consensual sex then a real violent rape scene. In every study since the late 70s, the results were the same. The two groups of people saw the real rape differently. The people who had seen the fantasy rape scene rated the violent rape scene as "not as bad" as the people who hadnt been exposed to the fantasy rape scene. As a result of all this research I dont promote anything that is not consensual - even the obviously fantasy stuff.