Printable View
CNN is reporting that 20 people are dead. I had the news on in the background and they were saying all morning that only one person was dead. Then just minutes ago they suddenly changed the number to 20!
http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/04/16/vte...ing/index.html
Off topic... but when are cell phone videos going to get better?!
They are saying 22 dead, over 28 injured and that 1 gunman is dead, but so far, not saying if just 1 or if others.
What the FU*K is going on!! Why do we give every yahoo that want's one a gun in this country!!:crazyeyes: :crazyeyes:
And the right to bear arms is a good thing because?
Michael
This is sad news, all this hatred is out of hand. :(
Becasue if the comon man did not have guns, you could bet your life that our climate here would look a lot more like China. And I am not talking about the weather.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dzinerbear
The government needs to be afraid of the people, not the other way around.
Of course from time to time some nut is going to flip out...but that is a result of our celebrity centered culture...not guns. I would imagine the person responsible for this (and by the way it is up to 30 now) is seeking their 15 minutes of fame...
Wow! Well here in Canada I don't know a single person who owns a gun. And last time I checked my government wasn't hanging people in the town square. Thankfully Canada is still a place where the majority of gun owners are criminals not citizens trying to protect themselves from some trumped up fear. If Americans couldn't easily own guns, this tragedy probably would not have happened, neither would have Columbine. Americans don't need to worry about terrorists, Americans are killing more Americans than terrorists ever will.Quote:
Originally Posted by TropixxxStudios
Michael
However this incident came about it is extremely upsetting, I was just imagining what it must be like for the families of those who were lost this morning...Johnny away at college working hard studying for a better future and really making it in the world to be gunned down by some crazy asshole tearing families apart and causing so much grief from one random act of insanity.
Prayers and peace to all those affected
Dave
Really? So would you make the case that gun control laws are successful to the students of Dawson College in Montreal?Quote:
Originally Posted by Dzinerbear
In fact, considering that Quebec has some of the strictest gun laws in North America, were there not previous incidents of campus gun killings on a front page scale?
Just like the laws we face everyday as adult webmasters (2257, COPA), are all well intentioned laws enacted to "solve problems" --- but the ham handed execution of such lawsmean that by the end of the day that they are not even very effective.
Therefore, the solution is to pass even more laws; a vicious cycle.
Suggesting that Columbine would not have occurred because of the free nature of American society is exactly the same remedy our foes suggest to "fix" the problems and costs to society associated with porn --- regulate it and / or ban it as much as possible.
Steve
I'm not suggesting that Canada is a paradise, but one of your board mates suggested that without guns Americans might expect a Chinese-style regime. And that's crap. And in fact Canadian tighter gun controls do have a postive effect, but since we live so close to the biggest gun-toting country in the world, it ain't hard to sneak them across the border.Quote:
Originally Posted by desslock
And I suggest very strongly if those Columbine kids didn't have such easy access to guns, that whole thing would have panned out completely differently.
And forget about the whole argument of protecting yourselves from whatever it is you fear the most -- how many Americans are killed every year accidentally from guns that weren't stored properly or safely.
Michael
Well, then you must not know very many people, because contrary to popular belief, there is actually a higher per-capita of gun ownership in Canada than in the United States.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dzinerbear
And actually, the majority of gun owners in Canada are law abiding citizens, just like the majority of gun owners here in America.
I agree with you that the problem is trumped up fear, and like I said before, a cycle and product directly of our infotainment news.
As Americans, we enjoy many more freedoms than you do in Canada, and I suspect that is partially because we have our Constitution, which includes the right to bear arms.
Oh yeah, and one more thing...
After Canada passed a gun control law in 1977, the murder rate failed to decline but armed robbery and burglary, crimes frequently deterred by gun ownership, increased.
*U.S. Bureau of Justice Statistics, International Crime Rates, May 1988; and Ministry of Supply and Services, Canada Yearbook, 1980-81 (Ottawa, Canada: 1981), p. 55.
Well in this country we all have a right to bear arms. Thats not going to change, its in our constitution.
But I do think that we should do the same thing with guns that we do with a car.
We dont just sell you a car and say go ahead and drive.
We make sure that you know the law and go though tests that say that you are deemed to be safe to use what could be a deadly machine in public.
WE should do the same with guns. It will not stop all of this. but would cut down on it.
I could live with that...but I doubt it would ever happen.Quote:
Originally Posted by CamCruise
I think the BIGGER answer is that we should have a test before you can have kids.
That would solve a lot more problems, and probably this one too.
In the last twenty five years in Canada... 4 or 5 school related shootings... in the United States this year how many? 32 people were killed today at Virigina Tech.. nearly 25% of Canada's entire murder rate, of which only half will be firearm related.
Well our government isn't tapping all of our phones, we don't have the RCMP issuing administrative warrants without judicial review, nor does CSIS operate any secret prisons... guess you do have more freedoms right?Quote:
As Americans, we enjoy many more freedoms than you do in Canada, and I suspect that is partially because we have our Constitution, which includes the right to bear arms.
Hey, its not like we elected him. But hey, I would rather have tapped phones and secret prisons in Africa and Cuba than get shot in the back of the head at point blank range for drinking a beer in public.* I guess that is just personal preference.Quote:
Originally Posted by gaystoryman
Umm...the last year I can easily find numbers for (2005) the Canadian government reported 548 homicides, so it would be closer to 6%, not 25%.Quote:
32 people were killed today at Virigina Tech.. nearly 25% of Canada's entire murder rate,
But hey, don't get me wrong...I love Canada...especially maple syrup, hockey, and that space needle thingie.
----------------------------------------------
*http://www.knowledgedrivenrevolution...No_Charges.htm
What 'freedoms' do Americans enjoy that Canadians and Europeans do not? I am currently living in Italy, and I havent noticed any fewer freedoms here - oh... except perhaps the freedom to not be afraid all the time.Quote:
As Americans, we enjoy many more freedoms than you do in Canada, and I suspect that is partially because we have our Constitution, which includes the right to bear arms.
Believe it or not, I actually am not anti-gun (though I think we need stricter licsensure - like for driving)
But this whole notion that Americans have about 'enjoying more freedoms' over Canada and Europe is complete and total BS.
Well, the obvious one for this thread is the right to own whatever fucking gun we want. Try to go down to your local Italian Wal-Mart and pick one up...or even two or three.Quote:
Originally Posted by shaun
Maybe try to get something semi-automatic, hollow point rounds, and has no hunting purpose whatsoever.
My guess is that they will tell you no.
:p
Anyway, my original point was that citizens should be able to own guns so that the government always remembers that we have them. Nothing more, nothing less.
Well... Italy. Hmmmm..... setting aside famous examples of Italy's corruption at the government and judicial level (wouldn't freedoms be abridged if you couldn't get a fair trial?) .... I find it interesting that the recent decision overturning COPA illustrates that even laws passed by Congress cannot abridge our freedom of speech.Quote:
Originally Posted by shaun
If an identical law passed the parliaments of Italy or other countries what constitutional protections would you have? In those countries, whatever elected "gang" that runs the government has lots more power over you.
Render unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's. (speaking of Italians...)
Steve
I wonder why we don't work on people more.
Can you imagine being a relative of someone at that school. Not knowing what's going on or if your relative is hurt or possibly dead, That just seems so unbearable to me.
No Gentlemen...
I mean what SPECIFIC freedoms do you believe you have over Europeans? Cite them.
Besides the right, of course, to buy any weapon you like and shoot each other with it? Of course, Canadians absolutely have that right... but unlike Americans, they don't tend to use their guns to shoot each other.
I contend that you have heard the phrase "we have more freedoms" than anyone else so many times that you have never even thought to challenge it. Its bullshit.... and has been for quite some time. Not to mention the american people have a history of bending over and spreading thier asscheeks anytime the US govt uses the current "boogeyman" phrase - used to be the soviets, now its the terrorists - but once upon a time in America we were free from unwarrented search or seizure, and free to travel without our papers.
No more - now you all obligingly hand over your fingerprints to the govt, you allow the government to use your SS# as state identification, you allow police to stop you at roadblocks, and virtually nary a word was heard when the govt was wiretapping citizens or arresting and imprisoning them without trial or charges. And the silence was absolutely deafening when the US govt ifiltrated peace groups in order to spy on people excercising their constitutional rights. Nor was any word uttered when the press was allowed to become a corporate monopoly - effectively silencing any voices of opposition.
But by golly, you can still go buy an assault rifle. Bravo for you. And its nice that you believe it can keep our govt in check because we are armed. Sure, that was the original intention, but I seriously doubt that - regardelss how facistic our country becomes - that the people are ever going to mount an armed revolution. And, our govt has a history of fighting even our UNARMED revolution with extreme force. Kent State wasnt so very long ago.
I am legally able to use marijuana for personal use. How bout you? I can go into any store and buy needles. How bout you? In most European countries, gay people can get married. I haven't noticed you having so much luck on that front in the "most free country on earth".
I have as much freedom of speech as you do, and the newspapers and news sources are far more varied. There are far more political parties, so there is a far broader spectrum of political representation, and it is pretty darn easy to recall. As to corruption in Europe (particularly in italy) - I seriously don't think ANY person in the US has any justification to point out corruption anywhere else. The stench in Washington is now murdering hundreds of people, including our own children, every single day. Furthermore, all you need do is look to the Northern nations of Europe to find the most ethical governmental systems in the world.
Yes. All European Nations have constitutions. All such constitutions were based on the Magna Carta - just like in the US. Unlike the US, the consititutions of Europe are not treated like so much toilet paper, nor does anyone believe them - like our president does - to be quaint and outmoded.
That said - I support the second amendment. I believe in the right of US citizens to keep and bear arms - as part of a WELL REGULATED MILITIA. You know why no gun control case has ever reached the supreme court? That "Well Regulated Militia" part of the second amendment is a doozy.
In closing, let me also say this: In the states, I have a gun. Not for personal protection, and not for hunting. I have it for sport, and was taught to safely use guns as a young child. I LIKE guns, and I wish that gun training and gun safety were part of every school curriculum in the United States. And I wish you needed to prove you know how to safely use one before you can own it. I, for one, don't think that the constitution really states that every mentally deficient joe blow with a couple of 6 packs under his belt should be allowed to go to WalMart and buy 10 or 12 assualt weapons.
The shootings are unfortunate
And just when the Republican propaganda about terrorist was just wearing off. Of course the answer for them wont be gun control, it will be metal detectors in every school. Cameras in every building, etc. etc.
I think a lot would be done by banning small hand guns, and all automatic/semi automatic guns as well.
A maniac with a normal shotgun can't go on a killing spree if he has to stop, open up his gun and add a single bullet each time.
Carrying a 3 foot long shotgun on the street is also a bit troublesome.
I think hunters and sportsmen would not be affected by doing just that.
Just heard that as they were taking away some of the dead bodies the cell phones on some of the corpses were ringing frantically.
The point of a freedoms is to be able to do something. You are born with them --- LIKE YOUR SEXUAL ORIENTATION. They aren't things the government can take away from you. The right to own guns is not because one day you might have to protect yourself from the government. You have that right because you live in a free country.Quote:
Originally Posted by shaun
People in the United States have a constitutionally protected right to engage in sodomy in the bedrooms that no legislature can infringe upon, but that doesn't mean you, your parents and friends all have that right because it carries an actionable benefit.
Monty Python's Meaning of Life adroitly captures the liberal concept of rights and freedoms during the scene where a stately older Protestant couple sit in their living room and look across the street at all the children streaming out of the house of a Catholic household. After sneering about their litters of kids, Graham Chapman explains to his wife that because they are Protestants, they have the freedom to use French ticklers, condoms and all kinds of sexual devices ---- even though they don't nor ever have.
"That's what it means to be a Protestant!"
Banning things deemed as "dangerous" has become very commonplace nowadays --- cigarettes for example... and the Burger Supreme Court essentially felt that pornography was not protected free speech for the same reason... that it was "prurient with no social benefit" or even potentially dangerous. Therefore, it was ok to be regulated or restricted.
I would suggest that the freedom of speech which includes protections on pornography stems from the same intellectual political philosophy that includes the right for someone to own a gun.
Steve
First of all... I NEVER advocated banning guns. As a matter of fact, as I said - I own a gun. And I know how to use it.
Furthermore, I pretty much resent govt intrusion on all levels. Sobriety check points piss me off no end. The use of my social security card for ANYTHING except social security is a violation of my rights. The laws that require me to now have identification on me are antithetical to the constitution. Yet, Americans - in their ever present state of delusional paranoia have systematically rolled over to whatever govt propaganda campaign has been in the offing, and given up most of their most important rights in order to enjoy an illusion of safety.
HOWEVER - the second amendment is NOT clear about the rights of citizens to buy guns at walmart. We are NOT enrolled in militia's - and furthermore, it was assumed at the writing that the people who owned guns actually knew how to use them.
There is NOTHING unconstitutional in requiring proof of mental stability (for example - a doctors note), nor in requiring proof that you know the fundamentals of firearm safety. Nor would this impact your right, nor my right - to own a gun. A "Well Regulated Milita" MEANS that firearms are to be regulated - and it seems quite reasonable to me to make certain that guns are only in the hands of people who are safe, sane, and responsible.
And - by the way - I still submit that America is NOT the most free country on earth. Other countires are just as free - and many are far more just. We just think we are because we are told it all the time.
PS - as to the porn issue....
Germany has gun control. They also have porn shops in the Munich airport. I'm not sure that your argument relating the right to own guns with the right to view porn holds any water... I can't buy a handgun here in Italy, but I can watch titties on my TV all night long.