Why Is It Still Considered 'Cool' To Do Drugs In The Gay Community?

I really dont understand it at all.

Last night we were at one of our local gay bars and everyone (staff) at the bar kept running to the toilets eery 30-60 minutes to 'powder their noses'.

A couple of people offered Gary and I drugs and they just looked at us like we had 2 heads when we said 'no thanks'.

I dont understand what the fascination with gay people coked out of their head is when they go to clubs or whatever to have a good time, i mean seriously, if you have to get high to have a good time, there is something seriously wrong with you.

Why do drugs seem to be common place in the gay community and what is the reason they are considered 'cool'?

Regards,

Lee

Lee,

Its not the just the gay community mate, well at least not in the UK. Well thats my experience.

I infact have a LOT of straight friends, and i go straight clubbing with them more than gay clubbing with my gay friends.

Yup, you go to a gay club, and everyone is going crazy on all sorts of shit, but then you go to a straight club, and its just the same....

I know the UK drinking/clubbing scene is known globablly as being "out of control" and i really dont know what its like in the states, but i think its a general "young drinkers thing".

Having said that, the "in thing" now for straight people is to go gay clubbing, dont know why? Heaven in London is fastly becoming 90% straight LOL.

It's the same here and with Straight Clubs.

When I was in my teens the "in" thing was MDA. Crunchy Wafers and Deep beats all night long. Then you started to see "Candy Ravers" and everything was cut with Crank.

Now it's a big ol GHB / Crank party.

Now if you were with a bunch of burnouts - the "cool" drugs are Acid and Pot with the rare mushroom weekend.

Drugs will always have a "cool" to do circle within every community, But the type of drugs change.

It's not a Gay/straight thing. It's a singles scene club thing Gay and straight.

You can't judge a whole diverse community by a few clubs. It was like this in the 70's too Gay & straight.

Uh...maybe because drugs are cool? :cop:

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Originally Posted by TropixxxStudios

Uh...maybe because drugs are cool? :cop:

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Untill you OD?

I wish folks would get over that in every community. All the drugs inevitably do is convince you to do something stupid

It's part of growing up. Eventually the wide majority will grow up and stop using it or just do it occasionally. Some people simply need longer to grow up.

And of course there is pressure of the group you are in or you want to belong to which makes you continue even if you have grown up mentally and already know that it's not good what you are doing. It's very hard to say no if all your friends do it.

And it's the same here in Europe (West and East).

I think squirt hit the nail on the head on this one in this thread~
http://forums.gaywidewebmasters.com/...ad.php?t=23453

Is this where I attempt to say something funny?

Well people who are predeposed to schizophrenia are pushed into through the use of Marijuana.

I've never thought they were kool, however my mother did.

Making drugs illegal makes them cool.

It has to do with breaking boundaries as an affirmation of the self.

That, plus the fact that our brains seem designed to seek alteration.

I imagine you were drinking - drinking is a drug, one proven to be dozens of times more dangerous and addictive than all the other illegal drugs combined.

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Originally Posted by Bill

Making drugs illegal makes them cool.

It has to do with breaking boundaries as an affirmation of the self.

That, plus the fact that our brains seem designed to seek alteration.

I imagine you were drinking - drinking is a drug, one proven to be dozens of times more dangerous and addictive than all the other illegal drugs combined.

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Yeah but Dick is adictive to some people and Pussy others.

Moreso.

For much the same reasons - sex causes the release of brainchange chemicals, (which act like drugs - in fact, are often analogues of the drugs we have declared taboo) and the brain seems designed to seek alteration.

Making sex illegal or socially taboo makes it all the more exciting, again, because of the boost in self-identity caused by breaking social boundaries.

That's half the reason anal has become such a social phenomenon. When it becomes socially accepted some other sex act will be pushed to the boundary and become even more attractive.

It's the price we pay for being herd animals - there's a constant struggle between herd uniformity and the individuals desire to become even more of an individual, and the easiest, cheapest, and usually safest way to do this is by breaking laws and taboos.

Yes, drugs are huge at raves for straight people, too. That much should be acknowledged.

But there is a HUGE crystal epidemic in the gay community, and we can't not pay attention to it just because straights do it, too. Gays are very prone to taking drugs for a bevy of emotional issues, and, like Lee, I think it's fucking stupid. Isn't anyone else sick of guys who can't stay hard because they're all tweaked out??? :)

In the interest of full disclosure, I smoke pot, but everyone knows that pot is not a dangerous "drug." I've done cocaine four times in my entire life (most recently at one of the trade shows), and I've done crystal all of six times, and only enjoyed it once. I just don't need drugs to enhance my life or my sex life.

To answer Lee's question, though, there is a famous slogan that goes "Drugs are for people who can't handle reality." And I think that's very true of the gay community. We are a community of "damaged goods" who think poorly of themselves and who look for escape everywhere they can find it -- in anonymous sex in bath houses, in tweaked-out sexcapades without condoms, in raves and circuit parties where no one cares what your name is, in losing themselves in submissive/dominant roles, and in obsessing over their muscles at the gym. I think underneath all the great bodies and the supposedly happy, well-adjusted gays of today lies a very unhappy, sad community of people who have yet to come to terms with their own lack of self-worth. People only do "cool" things or things that are perceived as being "cool" because they feel uncool.

That's my take on it, for what it's worth.

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Originally Posted by XXXWriterDude

We are a community of "damaged goods" who think poorly of themselves and who look for escape everywhere they can find it -- in anonymous sex in bath houses, in tweaked-out sexcapades without condoms, in raves and circuit parties where no one cares what your name is, in losing themselves in submissive/dominant roles, and in obsessing over their muscles at the gym.

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Wow, thats one hell of a way to label every gay man or woman :eek:

Regards,

Lee

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Originally Posted by XXXWriterDude

I think underneath all the great bodies and the supposedly happy, well-adjusted gays of today lies a very unhappy, sad community of people who have yet to come to terms with their own lack of self-worth.

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The same thing could be said about most people in modern society.

There's a lot of unhappiness, fakeness, and desperate identity-seeking behaviors everywhere we look.

Gay men are at greater risk all the time than the equivalent "normal" person - and people who feel themselves endangered often act out their fears.

Soldiers, for example, do much the same things, for the same reasons.

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Originally Posted by Bill

I imagine you were drinking - drinking is a drug, one proven to be dozens of times more dangerous and addictive than all the other illegal drugs combined.

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I would like to see a citation on this if it is, in fact, "proven."

There is no question that alcohol used in excess has severe side effects, including death, but I have a very hard time swallowing that alcohol is "dozens of times more dangerous and addictive than all the other illegal drugs combined, especially when one considers the very damaging (and highly addictive) effects of crystal meth and its brethren, the very low therapeutic ratio of GHB, the long-term synaptic and serotonin pathway damage of E, and the usually permanent damage to the dopamine pathways caused by opiate addictions.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by XXXWriterDude

I think underneath all the great bodies and the supposedly happy, well-adjusted gays of today lies a very unhappy, sad community of people who have yet to come to terms with their own lack of self-worth. People only do "cool" things or things that are perceived as being "cool" because they feel uncool.

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This is common in the African American community and hispanic communities as well.

The difference with the Gay community is that our members are made up of all races, and all members of our community have less rights then heterosexuals. Another thing to keep in mind is that when an African American child is born, he is not rejected by his parent, or family, or ridiculed because of his minority status, many members of the Gay community are and this rips at the soul of any human being, the fabric of who we are.

One can't help but to question ones worth when it's acceptable for people to lobby against their having equal rights.

Imagine the uproar if there was a lobby pushing to make it illegal for African Americans to adopt children, or marry, or have health coverage for their partners.

Coming together for equality is something that lifts the spirit and helps empower those who feel worthless. I see a day coming soon where we have found our soul again and come forward stronger then ever as a force nobody can deny is worthy of equality.

Everyone is a bar is doing drugs -- alcohol, tobacco, marijuana, coke, E, K, GHB, meth, pills, poppers. Some are just more acceptable than others.

Michael

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Originally Posted by gaybucks_chip

I would like to see a citation on this if it is, in fact, "proven."

There is no question that alcohol used in excess has severe side effects, including death, but I have a very hard time swallowing that alcohol is "dozens of times more dangerous and addictive than all the other illegal drugs combined, especially when one considers the very damaging (and highly addictive) effects of crystal meth and its brethren, the very low therapeutic ratio of GHB, the long-term synaptic and serotonin pathway damage of E, and the usually permanent damage to the dopamine pathways caused by opiate addictions.

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I wrote a big post with cites - but vbulletin says I can't post urls yet. It won't even let me post a partial url it blocks the post.

Here's the post with the cites removed.

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The problem with presenting an "authoritative" single citation is that in general this type of information is only assembled on the internet by drug legalization advocates.

You can do a google search on the question - you'll find that it's not easy to find good statistics all in one place.

But, for example, you can look at the numbers for alcohol and illicit drug related deaths - a figure you will often see, taken from stats gathered in 2000, is 85,000 alcohol related deaths vs 17,000 illicit drug related deaths.

(Most drug legalization advocates claim that the drug related deaths number is improperly inflated. I happen to agree with that, unfortunately, that makes it hard to come up with a reliable number, so lets use the governments number. Usually, you'll see a number of around 4 to 6 thousand illegal drug related deaths a year from the drug legalization advocates. Also, you will often see a higher estimate of alcohol related deaths - one commonly repeated is 107,400 deaths per year in the United States from alcohol abuse (Harwood et al., 1998).)

So, it's a little over 4 to 1 in related deaths, from the governments figures.

An alternative set of figures from the drug legalization advocates looks like this, over a twenty year period, illegal drugs caused about 45,000 deaths, while alcohol caused about 380,000 deaths, from stats taken I believe from the Center for Disease Control:

Then you have to examine the other social costs - effects on families and marriages, accidents, job productivity, unwanted and unsafe sexual acts, crimes commited under the influence of, etc. But, I'd have to put about a dozen cites here to demonstrate this.

But a commonly cited study says the costs of this was about 185 billion in 1998. Most of the people that talk about this say this cost only reflects the most extreme cases, and fails to uncover a large amount of costs that are hidden and borne by the families - for instance from small accidents and days of work lost, that were not reported as being alcohol related, or divorces that were not described as being affected by alcohol.

Then, there's the medical perspective - we could debate for hours using different sets of statistics about the relative medical risks of ordinary moderate to heavy use of these chemicals. But most of what you just mentioned is debateable - for instance, there is no clinical evidence* of nuerological damage in humans from mdma, and as time passes, and we continue to fail to see serotonin damaged individuals appearing, despite the fact that millions have taken ridiculously high doses of the stuff for the past twenty years, it's starting to look like serotonin damage is a medical myth.

(*"Clinical evidence" refers to reports from health professionals in the field, not to lab studies. Laboratory studies often don't apply to clinical experience, and until they are repeated and peer reviewed they are suspect.)

Unfortunately I can't find the article that referenced this curious non-appearance of clinical harm for all the millions of mdma users, but it did exist. Here's a substitute, the recent British study that placed mdma low on the list of harm causing chemicals.

However, in general, at the ordinary doses used, alcohol causes more damage to the body, especially the liver and brain, than most if not all of the illegal drugs.

But, since this is a debateable topic, would you be satisfied if I said, _in my opinion_, alcohol has been proven to be a dozen times more dangerous than illegal drugs in general.

Because I don't want to sit here and list cite after cite, knowing that internet cites are badly organized and suspect. And it was a pain in the ass to write this much.

Center for Disease Control and Statistics

There are approximately 75,000 deaths attributable to excessive alcohol use each year in the United States (1). This makes excessive alcohol use the 3rd leading lifestyle-related cause of death for the nation (2). In the single year 2003, there were over 2 million hospitalizations (3) and over 4 million emergency room visits (4) for alcohol-related conditions. SOURCE DATA

Center for Disease Control and Statistics

In 2004, poisoning was second only to motor-vehicle crashes as a cause of death from unintentional injury in the United States (1). Nearly all poisoning deaths in the United States are attributed to drugs, and most drug poisonings result from the abuse of prescription and illegal drugs (2). SOURCE DATA

On the side of alcohol being said to be "far more dangerous than all other drugs put together" im going to have to say "bullshit".

I have been drinking since I was 14. That was the age i started going out into town drinking and clubbing. Back then, yes, I drank WAY too much. I was getting legless 3- 4 times a week. I will agree, that drinking like that is very bad for you and no doubt if kept up for years would kill you.

I think when you get to a level of maturity where you realize "binge drinking" is bad, alcohol becomes a healthy part of the diet. If I go out for dinner with friends, I will have a couple of glasses of wine and REALLY enjoy it. Its proven that alcohol is small amounts is very good for the body, wine especially good for the blood I believe.

I also believe that alcohol is not addictive. I think alcoholics are not addicted to the alcohol, but the state they get into when they have had it. Maybe that’s part of addiction, but the only time iv ever been near the stage of "all that mattered was my next drink" was when I was very depressed, and alcohol got me away from it.

Now, moving on, I want to know how Alcohol can be more dangerous than Heroin or Crack?

The reason I ask, is I have known both crack cocaine and heroin addicts, and its scared the shit out of me, Heroin especially. Im no drug expert but I know the health problems surrounding heroin really can kill you, and that’s not even mentioning what it "may" or “may not” have been cut with.


End of the day, id rather have a glass of wine or a beer everyday, than a needle in my arm, or a lung full of crack smoke. I think my health is far better :D

Squirt and Bill, thanks.

I try to be a stickler for accuracy in what I post (and expect to be called on it if I blow it), and so I expect the same from others. Bill's original statement appears to be unsupportable.

Squirt's data (which I consider to be from a reputable source) shows that alcohol is indeed a major killer... but of course, one has to factor in the percentage of the population using alcohol vs. drugs, and one also has to factor in the second study, which points to illegal drugs as a major source of "poisoning" deaths, which I'd assume includes ODs.

I'm not for a moment arguing that alcohol isn't damaging, or even that it may not be more damaging in some cases than other illegal drugs, but the original statement I was questioning was the claim that alcohol is "dozens of times more dangerous and addictive than all the other illegal drugs combined" which I think we've shown is not an accurate statement.

I would go further and say that I don't think it's even accurate to say that alcohol is necessarily more damaging to the body than, say amphetamine class drugs or perhaps even MDMA and its analogs. It's an apples-to-oranges comparison; they affect different body systems with different levels of severity.

If you're now changing the statement to say that it's *your opinion* that alcohol is dozens of times more dangerous, then of course I can't argue that, as it's opinion. My objection is to broadly stated claims for which there's no supporting data.

BTW, Bill, I agree that Internet sources are next to worthless... the only cites for this sort of thing I generally consider worthwhile are from scientific or medical journals or government agencies... and even those studies have to be carefully evaluated because often times they are biased by who is paying for them or unintentional experimenter bias.

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Originally Posted by samebb

I also believe that alcohol is not addictive. I think alcoholics are not addicted to the alcohol, but the state they get into when they have had it.

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That's addiction. People are addicted to the euphoria, the confidence, the joy, the whatever it is that they feel when they take a substance. You seem to be confusing addiction with a physcial need of some kind, but it's the emotional state that's brought on by a substance that people are chasing.

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Now, moving on, I want to know how Alcohol can be more dangerous than Heroin or Crack?

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Alcohol is more sinister that crack or heroin because the unmanageability of an alcohol-based life can be slower to appear. Crack and heroin, you're addicted pretty quickly, and then, most of your energy is spent chasing the next high. It doesn't take long with these kinds of drugs or meth for you to lose friends, jobs, money, homes, etc. With alcohol you can maintain a seemingly normal life for years and decades before you figure out you need help.

A guy can start doing crack and see his life pretty well spiral out of control in less than a year. And if he's lucky, he can seek treatment, work through it and clean up his life. If he can stay on track, then maybe he's only lost a couple of years of his life. An alcoholic can take 10, 20, 30 years to reach the point where they figure out they need help, and at that point, they've lost 10, 20, or 30 years of their life. Which is worse?

Alcohol is socially accepted, as was smoking, and we saw how that worked out.

Michael

Speed/Meth is the worst BY FAR. Now I am not saying the others are not harmful. All drugs take their toll in one way or another. Alcohol being legal is a whole other story. In a way comparing alcohol and hardcore drugs is an apples/oranges comparison.

I'll say it again, speed/meth is the worst by far. IMO it is the worst drug ever invented and will be responsible for more death over the next 50 years than all others combined.
see http://www.tweaker.org/html/home.html for some good info.

--Chubbs

Having gone to rehabb farely recently and beeing clean for the last 7 months.

I have to say that the drug use in the gay community or even in the porn industry scares the shit outta me.

I cant blame recreational users that have control.

i GUESS THE KEY IS NOT TO FALL IN TO DEEP :)

I must be living in the twilight zone

The only times I've seen drug use and sluts is at the clubs. Clubs are not the Gay community, they are hookup joints, just like in the straight community. The straight community is not defined by clubs either.

The Gay community consists of Gay community centers which have meeting groups and community events you can volunteer for, etc. etc.

The key is to hang around people who empower you and compliment your personality type NOT hanging around people that see you as meat or a means to an end, amongst other things.

Regarding drugs in the porn scene.. in 6 years I've filmed 3 people that you could tell were on drugs. I learned from them and don't film people who are high because a) they can't maintain an errection b) their eyes are bloodshot or pupils dialated, makes for shitty content and c) they get sweaty and discolored, not good content.

Squirt, I agree with you, but I think that for some of the younger gay crowd, the club scene IS the gay community, as far as they know. A lot of the conversations I have with our models (pretty much all guys 18-22) revolve around looking for "good healthy" guys to go out with, and I try to explain that, with few exceptions, the club scene generally isn't the best place to find healthy people interested in relationships.

A lot of the guys have a hard time with that, because they equate clubs with "the gay community"...when I suggest other places to meet gay guys, it's like a radical new concept to them.

It's all about education, and I do think the drug problem has gotten worse in the clubs in the past few years, and that, in turn, has led to the problem going out of the clubs and into many of the other social scenes (parties, get-togethers, etc) where young gay guys hang out.

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Originally Posted by Lee

Wow, thats one hell of a way to label every gay man or woman :eek:

Regards,

Lee

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Let's not get into semantics. As anyone knows, there are plenty of exceptions to every generalization. To me, that's just a given. I don't need to point those people out.

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Originally Posted by Squirt

This is common in the African American community and hispanic communities as well.

The difference with the Gay community is that our members are made up of all races, and all members of our community have less rights then heterosexuals. Another thing to keep in mind is that when an African American child is born, he is not rejected by his parent, or family, or ridiculed because of his minority status, many members of the Gay community are and this rips at the soul of any human being, the fabric of who we are.

One can't help but to question ones worth when it's acceptable for people to lobby against their having equal rights.

Imagine the uproar if there was a lobby pushing to make it illegal for African Americans to adopt children, or marry, or have health coverage for their partners.

Coming together for equality is something that lifts the spirit and helps empower those who feel worthless. I see a day coming soon where we have found our soul again and come forward stronger then ever as a force nobody can deny is worthy of equality.

---

Great post, Squirt. Those are my points as well. All of the stuff going on in the gay community happens in other communities as well. Women are, of course, very prone to insecurity and feelings of inadequate self-worth based on archaic views of femininity passed down through the years, but I do think there is a special kind of self-loathing that is birthed within the gay community, especially within the gay male community. Not only are we gay, but we are gay MALES, so we are also under pressure to conform to standards of masculinity and maleness. We've all seen how lesbianism can be considered "hot" and "trendy" in pop culture. Women being lesbians don't pose as much of a threat to society, because women don't run society. Gay men, however, are viewed as being traitors to masculinity and the patriarchal power structure in general. (This is, of course, not to say that lesbians don't have it bad too. I minored in Women's Studies in college. I know the oppression they've faced as well.)

I just think that there is something very specific about being gay that contributes to our own kind of alienation and self-hatred that manifests itself in excessive drug use and the other things I mentioned.

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Originally Posted by XXXWriterDude

I just think that there is something very specific about being gay that contributes to our own kind of alienation and self-hatred that manifests itself in excessive drug use and the other things I mentioned.

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I think where we differ in our experience as a minority group is the splintering that happens after we come out to friends and family. Some families sever all ties, try to change you, or see you as a disgrace. Some friends feel betrayed, wonder if you lied because you had a crush on them, and feel they can never trust you again. Degragation or total loss of familial ties is devestating to any human being and leaves life long scars in many people. None of these aspects are part of any other minority group. This experience is unique only to the Gay community.

I'm tempted to look up drug use and STD statistic across various minority groups and cross reference them with the Gay demographic to see what the real deal is. A quick glance at the CDC hiv stats for 2005 shows the following:

Male-to-male sexual contact 18,939
Male-to-male sexual contact and injection drug use 2,190
Injection Drug Use 8,985
High-risk heterosexual contact* 13,486
Other** 540
SOURCE


So 22,471 cases of non Gay related HIV cases in America

vs

21,129 Gay related cases of HIV in America

Shame it's considered a Gay problem when the majority of cases were through heterosexual contact and non gay injection drug use.

I have a feeling some research on drug statistics and homosexuals might be surprising as well but I don't have time right now to research it so I'll keep an opened mind.

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Originally Posted by Squirt

I think where we differ in our experience as a minority group is the splintering that happens after we come out to friends and family. Some families sever all ties, try to change you, or see you as a disgrace. Some friends feel betrayed, wonder if you lied because you had a crush on them, and feel they can never trust you again. Degragation or total loss of familial ties is devestating to any human being and leaves life long scars in many people. None of these aspects are part of any other minority group. This experience is unique only to the Gay community.

I'm tempted to look up drug use and STD statistic across various minority groups and cross reference them with the Gay demographic to see what the real deal is. A quick glance at the CDC hiv stats for 2005 shows the following:

Male-to-male sexual contact 18,939
Male-to-male sexual contact and injection drug use 2,190
Injection Drug Use 8,985
High-risk heterosexual contact* 13,486
Other** 540
SOURCE


So 22,471 cases of non Gay related HIV cases in America

vs

21,129 Gay related cases of HIV in America

Shame it's considered a Gay problem when the majority of cases were through heterosexual contact and non gay injection drug use.

I have a feeling some research on drug statistics and homosexuals might be surprising as well but I don't have time right now to research it so I'll keep an opened mind.

---

Also, the fact that many of us had to hide our sexuality from our loved ones (something other minorities do not have to do) contributes to feelings of alienation, distrust and a general disconnectedness that is very specific to our community. Everybody has issues, but gay issues are very specific to our gay people. But if people want to keep singing "Everybody Hurts," that's fine, too. It's good to acknowledge that, in the end, we are all the same. :)

You folks must hang out in different circles than I do.

Alcohol concerns me, because I've seen so many people get hurt by it.

I haven't seen anything like the same danger caused by illegal drugs.

Prescription drugs used for illegal pleasure or relaxation, which are in kind of a gray area socially, have caused a lot more trouble than illegal drugs in my area.

I knew a girl, a stripper who worked in one of the local clubs, who died about two years ago from fentanyl - but if she hadn't been drunk, she wouldn't have taken it, and probably wouldn't have died, because of the synergy between cns depressants like alcohol and opiates, especially ultra-strong prescription chemicals like fentanyl.

However, the social and political climate makes it non-pc to say that alcohol is more dangerous than illegal drugs.

The biggest danger from illegal drugs is caused by their being illegal - so there's no quality control, there's a dangerous criminal economy, and people behave fearfully and covertly, and can't legitimately seek medical help without risking their freedom and security.

But, I recognize that this isn't a conversation that can be held rationally.

Much like the conversations about being gay, and wether or not gay men have the same rights as straight men.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p2HipedgM3I

I think this explains it all. We should all pay attention to nature and what it can teach us. :snake:

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Originally Posted by Bill

However, the social and political climate makes it non-pc to say that alcohol is more dangerous than illegal drugs.

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No, it would actually be that the above statement, as already discussed, is not supported by the facts that makes it non-PC to say it.

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The biggest danger from illegal drugs is caused by their being illegal - so there's no quality control, there's a dangerous criminal economy, and people behave fearfully and covertly, and can't legitimately seek medical help without risking their freedom and security.

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This statement is simply not supported by the facts, and in this case the data is voluminous, from unimpeachable sources, and consistent over almost 100 years of data collection.

If your statement were correct, then why, after the lengthy experiment with legalization by both the Netherlands and Switzerland did both countries opt to re-criminalize?

Simple. In Switzerland, addiction rates skyrocketed, public health resources were strained, and crime increased due to the inability of the new addicts to pay for their addictions.

Opiates were legal in the US until the early 1900s, when the addictive nature of the drugs and the societal damages caused as a result became clear. Other countries followed suit.

If this were simply a political problem, then more socially liberal countries would have legalized the use of recreational drugs. But none have done so, and the ones that have legalized or decriminalized have, pretty much without exception, moved back toward recriminalization because legalization simply doesn't work and creates greater public health and safety problems.

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But, I recognize that this isn't a conversation that can be held rationally.

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Well, I think what you actually mean is conversations can't be held rationally when one party is presenting unsupported opinions as fact and the other side persists in interfering with the "rational" conversations by providing pesky facts that contradict the opinions.

I'm not arguing in favor of or against legalization or criminalization of drugs, nor am I in any way trying to defend alcohol as "better" than drugs. Both are dangerous, both can have severe side effects. But the data is clear on which substances pose the greater risks as far as addiction and health risks.

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Originally Posted by gaybucks_chip

If your statement were correct, then why, after the lengthy experiment with legalization by both the Netherlands and Switzerland did both countries opt to re-criminalize?

Simple. In Switzerland, addiction rates skyrocketed, public health resources were strained, and crime increased due to the inability of the new addicts to pay for their addictions.

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Not having lived there, I can't be sure, but the theory I read is that because surrounding countries retained prohibition, the problems of their illegal economies were transferred to the neighboring countries with less restrictive laws.

This has been one of the main effects of the drug wars and prohibition - the creation and transmission of criminal economies and increased health costs back and forth between countries all over the world.

I get your position - you disapprove of the illegal drugs.

You seem to believe that people can be forced to just stop using the drugs you dissapprove of, and forced to use the drugs you approve of.

After 80 years of ever more draconian laws, and the creation of the biggest prison system in the world, how do you think that's working out?

After funding vast criminal enterprises in south america, afghanistan, the far east, not to mention in europe and here in the states, funding terrorism, and justifying things like wholesale spraying of herbicides on the rain forest, when do you think these horrible drug takers will learn their lesson?

When do you figure you are going to be successful in forcing people to stop using the drugs you disappprove of - do you think another hundred years, and another 10 million prison sentences will take care of the people you dissapprove of?

When do you think we should start applying the final solution?

My position, based on my studies and years of involvement in both the club businesses and scenes, and the intellectual and art scenes, is that I worry about people intoxicated on alcohol far more than I worry about the people who have been taking the illegal drugs.

It's drinking that causes the disasters, the fights, the wrecks, and most of the deaths - the people who are high mostly just want to be left alone.

But I recognize my arguments of practicality won't have any effect on someone who has made a moral decision to approve of one drug and disapprove of others.

Much like arguments of practicality won't influence a person who hates the thought of a man having sex with another man.