CCBill vs. Epoch (My Experiences)

Hey Guys, Long time no see :china:

I've had some experiences that I would like to share with you today.

I have 30 sum sites that is an AVS System / Membership network to best explain it. I was first with CCBill, I had many problems with them that I'm sure many of you have experienced as well. Then I switched to Epoch.

CCBill made some "homophobic" comments to us creating somewhat of a disruption with us. We'd email CCBill our problems, they'd never respond or they would get rather rude with us, we'd call CCBill, etc.
CCBill always accused us of our server problems... we'd prove to CCBill it wasn't us.
CCBill would also decline probably about a good 45% of our "new members." Then I met up with a good friend Rainey who was with Pride Bucks. She left Pride Bucks and went to Epoch.
I was telling her of our horrible experiences. And she told us to try Epoch and that we would notice a lot of better "features and perks" that CCBill couldn't offer.

CCBill was always just rude. So we have completely dropping them.

For starting up with CCBill we grossed aprox. $100 in memberships within a 45 day period. Since we've left CCBill, our membership sales have gone up triple that.

I strongly suggest using Epoch as a primary payment processor. They are very nice, quick to respond, they NEVER get rude with anyone, they're ALWAYS open to feedback.

Also, IF you are using CCBill, you will notice that they have reserves and hold a percentage... Epoch doesn't.

Epoch accepts 9 payment types in 13 different currencies, more than any
other 3rd party biller, therefore allowing you to accept more customers.

Epoch offers EpochStats, a complete affiliate and cascading software system to clients using Epoch as their primary processor, free of charge. To purchase the software directly from MPA would cost upwards of $17,000.

Epoch takes no credit card reserves. Most processors keep 5-10% of your
income on a rolling reserve.

Epoch offers a robust suite of premium features that will help you form
strategic partnerships with other Epoch clients, upsell your own products and retain your members longer.

I could go on and on about just how great Epoch is, but you get the point. From a Webmasters stand point of needing a payment processor Epoch has been on the ball providing A+++ Service!

If you haven't heard of them, I would suggest looking into them. They are just great people and I believe they just strive to help out their clients. They have been great to us here at NoW @ One Entertainment, and I'm just certain they would be great to you also!!!!!

If you'd like more information, he's my rep's information. She's just a fantastic lady!

Her name is Rainey Stricklin
Email: Rainey@Epoch.com or Raingurl@Gmail.com
AIM: raingurl
ICQ: 209592911
Phone: 602-295-1628

Or if you'd like to know more from a webmasters stand point, I'm ALWAYS more than happy to share information!

XOXOXOXO to everyone!
JJ

Wow....

It almost reads like an advert for Epoch.

Did CCBill try splintering the gay webmaster community by launching a gay webmaster event at the same time as one Epoch was already putting on?

Did CCBill also avoid answering uestions publicly when the gay webmaster community asked these questions of them and in fact, are we still awaiting answers to several vital questions from CCBill to this very day?

Has CCBill also vanished from GWW completely other than a couple of their schills posting on their behalf in order to get additional clients in the gay market because they dont have the balls to do the right thing and be transparent with their business practices?

Did CCBill also steal away 'gay' employees from other companies because they felt like that was the only way they could attract new 'gay' business?

Im guessing the answer to all of those questions above is NO Epoch on the other hand.....

Regards,

Lee

I'm not too sure what your talking about....

All I'm saying is that CCBill made some homophobic comments to us, they are not the most pleasant individuals to talk to, every time we've had a problem they have made it worse, they hold your reserves, and I was just explaining my experiences with both of them.

Don't be an ass. I didn't know of any of that. Nor was I trying to create any outrages. I was just stating why I chose Epoch over CCBill and the good things with Epoch.

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Originally Posted by SebSloPro

All I'm saying is that CCBill made some hmophobic comments to us

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Can you tell us what those comments were that CCBill made to you please?

Right now you have basically tols us 'i have a secret, but im not telling you what it is' which makes it look like your post is an ad for Epoch, because Epoch dont have the balls to talk to us directly after all the stuff they did to screw the gay webmaster community over a few months ago with their gay show, along with Cybersocket and AVN.

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they are not the most pleasant individuals to talk to

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Really? I dont think i have ever had a problem talking to anyone over at CCBill, they are always friendly and outgoing and are totally transparent in their dealings with me and pretty much everyone else i have seen asking questions of them in person, and on GWW. Epoch on the other hand, run away with their tail between their legs when the difficult questions start getting asked about their business practices.

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every time we've had a problem they have made it worse

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Again, this has certainly not been my personal experience with CCBill, typically i get problems (when they arise) solved within a few minutes of calling their client support line or asking one of their many reps on ICQ for assistance.

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I was just stating why I chose Epoch over CCBill and the good things with Epoch.

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Just as i was explaining the good things with CCBill and why myself and several other people will never do business with Epoch because of their dubious business practices in wanting additional gay business but when they get asked questions in a public forum that might be considered 'difficult' they run away and leave everyone wondering what their true intentions are.

Regards,

Lee

Wow! You should work for Epoch.
You sold me big time!

Look Guys! I'm getting bombarded with horribly negative emails from you guys.

Look, I'm not one that starts shit. Nor do I know and nor do I care about the battles of Epoch and CCBill.

All I'm saying is, I've had HORRIBLE problems with CCBill. I left CCBill, I went with EPOCH, and there was the perks of joining Epoch.

One thing I learned from this site was to take others pros and cons that they post along with their experiences and have taken them in and I've learned causing myself and my business to grow stronger.

So I was posting my experiences for newcomers and others to basicly learn from.

I'm getting swamped with e-mails from you guys who are totally trashing me about this posting. My intent was NEVER to hurt anyone, My Intent was never to make anyone leave CCBill or even leave your other processor and go to Epoch.

I dont know what happened at Cybersocket and AVN, I dont care. I wasn't there so I cant be the judge of things. All I can say is the experiences with CCBill were not the greatest and with being with Epoch, my experiences are much better.

Hey Lee,
This isn't personal. First and foremost, you know me and you know I love the ccbill sales reps. I should, i hired them :)


What I read in the forum is that Rainey Rocks!!! Simple point, she does!!!
Ask the sales reps at ccbill and they will tell you she rocks. We all love Rainey.

Knowing the friendships between Sherri who does the shows at ccbill, and Rainey, I know these dramas will go away. People acting like they know what the whole story on the previous dramas are, are kidding themselves.

More importantly, if those companies have stopped talking about it, why is everyone else!!!

I salute any rep who goes out of their way to help, and limit drama, and Rainey definitely falls into that category

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Originally Posted by Lee

Did CCBill also steal away 'gay' employees from other companies because they felt like that was the only way they could attract new 'gay' business?

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Lee, You've got this 100% incorrect and its been made clear several times that Rainey went to work for epoch because she wanted a change. You of all people should understand that affiliate work burns you out.

Just to be clear Rainey approached Patrick for an open position. Patrick then called Harlan, David and I. As most people, he was stunned that Rainey was looking to move on. We've always been great friends with Patrick and he told us that he informed Rainey that he could not hire her without our blessing. As the story goes, we gave our blessing and remain very good friends Patrick, Joel, Rainey et al.

I don't like speaking for other people, but I do know that it was Patrick that approached Joel for a job, when he decided to leave ccbill. It was not the other way around.

Most likely this is the first time that the above was phrased the way it was. Regardless, it was not for your concern. Noone on this board or any one that does not include the companies involved have any right to know anything in this regard. Nonetheless, I hope this clears up this issue once and for all.

Perhaps if you avoid using your accusatory speach, you might actually get responses. As it is, and as it was in the aforementioned...its the sound bites that matter for the drama queens. Not the facts. The fact is that towards the end of the thread you're referring to, a good number of people were starting to see that the picture that was being painted for us by ccbill may actually not be, ahem, forthcoming.

Personally, I've never had a problem with epoch. I have had several problems with ccbill. Generally, they have been rectified. However, the last issue that I had with them I consider closed, but it still leave a very bad taste in my mouth. When a client of theirs made libelous statements publicly in email to 3rd parties and on this very board that (paraphrasing here) ' I know you're using underage models because I know the guy in one of the photosets that I stole from you', there is absolutely no excuse. CCBill should have terminated that client which they refused to do. Not because of their libelous actions towards us, but that at best he was not being honest, admitted to stealing content or worse he basically said he would knowingly use underage content. On the other hand Verotel, terminated that client immediately after he 'REPLIED TO ALL' in the dmca letter i sent him, his host and processors. I didn't even have to ask Verotel to do it, they did within 15 minutes of that webmaster's email to me that they were cc'd on.

Craig,

Im in complete agreement with you that company reps should be publicly named when they do something above and beyond, so often we see reps getting bashed on the boards and very few times do we see them being thanked for the all the hard work and dedication they put in to their jobs.

However, this thread was biased towards Epoch from someone who obviously doesnt know the recent history, as im sure there are others on the GWW Community who dont know the history behind Epochs dubious business practices when it comes to putting their business interests first and foremost in the gay community, whilst professing wanting to unify the community, i just want to make sure anyone considering using Epoch as a biller has all the information they need to make an informed decision that not only affects their business, but the entire gay webmaster community, which in all reality, Epoch really doesnt seem to care about right now based on their silence in matters that affects each and every one of our businesses in a negative way.

Regards,

Lee

Hey Lee,
No one can know the whole stories behind disagreements, and I am under the impression BOTH companies are not talking about past issues but are moving forward. I don't seem to see any posts from either company to the contrary.

I think they both want to do their business as well as they can.

If any of you want contact info on any ccbill or epoch rep and a good referral, call me I"ll be glad to give you their numbers.

What is most interesting, is throughout the dramas, it hasn't been about a single sales rep. It is about events, or techs, or rumors, but no rep on either side has been thought to have said or done anything wrong I trust they are all doing everything they can to help their webmasters, thus the loyalty that they all instill is deserved.

I have no comments on the whole gay show debacle as I've heard so many versions of what happened that its hard to know what to believe. I won't touch that mess with a 10 foot pole.

From a strictly academic perspective though, we push a lot of transactions through a whole lot of different affiliate programs. We used to run some paysites as well and we used both CCbill and Epoch. Several months ago we noticed that our paysite sales with ccbill were slagging off so we made Epoch the primary biller in our cascade. The conversions went up almost 15% immediately.

We then started looking deeper at our sales overall on traffic we send out to other programs and the conversions on those programs that use the CCBill affiliate program have without any doubt dropped off in recent months. The conversions on a day-by-day basis have dropped and become more eratic. Also, the number of rebills being approved have also declined. We have over 50 CCBill programs we promote through their affiliate system and the drop is across the board.

On the flip-side, there is no drop-off in either new signups or retention from programs that use their own merchant accounts or that are using Epoch as their only biller or as their primary. There are a few blips here and there that are an exception to the trend above, but in a macro view and based on our experience... Epoch is converting and pushing through more rebills with greater success and has been for over 2 months now.

From my experiences CCBill and Epoch both have great people working for them and both billers were extremely helpful recently when we sold our program. We even made a point to thank both of them in our press release announcing the sale.

As far as Rainy goes... I haven't worked with her since she left PrideBucks, but she was probably the best affiliate rep that I've ever worked with (no offense to anyone else out there) and I'm sure that she will serve Epoch very well.

anyway, my .02

Guys, Look... I don't think I made it very clear last time.

MY INTENTION WAS NOT TO BASH ANYONE, MY INTENTION WAS NOT TO "STEAL" CCBILL'S CLIENTELLE. MY INTENTION WAS TO SHARE MY EXPERIENCES.
IF YOU THINK IM SUCH A HORRIBLE PERSON BY DOING THIS THAN THATS YOUR OPINION!

But I don't deserve these emails you guys are sending to me. Apparently you don't have the balls or should I say the nerves to post them on here.

Rainey at Epoch is very good to us here, she's always been by my side, thus she deserves the recognition as many have stated thereof.

Evidently, we've all had problems with CCBill, I'm sure everyone has their favorite processor.

For the record according to some of the emails I"ve been receiving... EPOCH did NOT pay me to post that. Nor was there any incentive for me to post this.

You guys need to grow up. You can hate me all you want, I'm not losing any sleep over it.

The experiences that I received with CCBill were not the best:
1) I'd email them, it'd be days before I'd get a response or even none at all.
2) I'd give them the homedir for the htaccess / htpasswd files and they would screw them up thus they'd need to fix them. I wouldn't in fear of screwing things up.
3) there were some comments made that I didn't see appropriate.
4) The biggest problems I had with them was that they wouldn't answer us and the screwups they made were always our faults in their eyes whether it be proven it wasn't our fault.
5) They never appeared to be pleasurable to work with.

My intention on the Epoch part was:
1) How quick they respond to attentitive matters
2) They're fast to get everything going
3) They offer a great affiliate program
4) Rainey is the shit!
5) They don't hold your money
6) The opposite of what I said above about CCBill.

I was NOT at any of the shows, and this is exactly I will not go... I don't like to get mixed up in all this drama.
I'm 25 years old, I own 30 sum membership sites OF MY OWN CONTENT and some affiliate program stuff, I own 40+ dvd sales sites, and I own my own studio which has produced 50+ dvds, AND I've been investigated by the FBI on my record keeping for my models last summer and passed with flying colors.

And we're preparing to launch VOD / Download 2 own sites /programs.

I have done ALL of this myself in just less than one year. Mainly because I keep to myself and stay out of the drama. I don't want to waste my money going to these shows because it seems after reading all of this stuff all the shows are is drama! I'm serious.

Maybe before starting some drama and talking shit about people you guys need to investigate it and find the truth out of the matter prior to jumping to conclusions and starting shit with other people!
I feel like I"m back in kindergarten again!

The purpose I see of these forums is for people to talk to one another, we're one large industry... learn from each other. You may not like everyone, but god damn people why can't you at least get along with people?
Stand back and look at the internet... It's like we're all one big team here! We need each other.

We Love Epoch! Python was of thier first clients, and we continue to keep our business relationship strong!

Epoch kicks ass!

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Originally Posted by SebSloPro

It's like we're all one big team here! We need each other.

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I agree, which is why i question the business practices of Epoch, Cybersocket and AVN in deliberately scheduling their event against the CCBill Gay Phoenix Forum in order to get it cancelled, if they want to unite the gay webmaster community as they profess, deliberately going out of their way to get one of the best webmaster shows in the industry cancelled, especially the ONLY gay webmaster event, isnt the way to go about it.

I understand that Epoch wants more 'gay' business but screwing every gay webmaster over by getting the Gay Pheonix Forum cancelled isnt the way to go about it, because as they are finding out, it left a really bad taste in everyones mouth who was considering going with Epoch for their billing needs.

Which is why i guess they asked you to post this thread ;)

Regards,

Lee

i've never heard of a rep from ccbill making a racist or homopobic comment, so since it's not SOP over there, did you try reporting the employee who did it? a bad employee can pop up anywhere from time to time, and it's only with the help of clients that they can be weeded out.

both epoch and ccbill have some great features but i have found that more employees tend to sign up while using ccbill - in part because you can combine all your ccbill accounts (a feature epoch doesn't offer at this time), in part because ccbill has long allowed you to create your own prices on the fly and partly because ccbill focused on smaller programs while epoch was focusing on the bigger programs.

btw, when last i noticed, admittedly a while back, epoch held reserves. did they stop?

I have to agree with Lee that it's awfully suspicious that, immediately after all the Epoch people get back from the show in Amsterdam, the cavalry comes out (including a ton of people who never post regularly) in favor of Epoch. It just sounds awfully orchestrated.

I haven't "fanned the flames" on the Epoch situation for a while because I briefly spoke to Patrick a couple weeks ago before he was leaving for Amsterdam, and we made arrangements to talk once he gets back.

I for one would like to see the entire situation resolved to everyone's satisfaction. I agree with Lee that Epoch's complete lack of any comment on the situation is deplorable, but I suspect that it was done on advice from another organization.

As for CCBill technical support, it's always been nothing but exemplary. In most cases, even with the most complicated things, I call, the first person who answers the phone digs into it, we work through it, and it's done. I have *never* had to wait for support from CCBill, and *never* had them blame us (unless it was legitimately a problem on our end.)

As for CCBill saying homophobic things... sorry but I call BS on that, and I agree with Patti that if a single rep said something to that effect, the department manager should immediately have been contacted. I have worked with many, many of the CCBill tech staff and spoken at length with nearly all of the sales staff, and I have never felt the slightest sense of homophobia or disrespect from anyone there. Yes, it's possible there are one or two "bad apples" - they have been hiring a lot of new people - but that would, I'm sure, be dealt with swiftly and effectively if it were brought to the attention of the appropriate people.

Hopefully we will find out the truth about the whole sordid Gay Phoenix Forum/ AVN Summit mess before too long, and the REAL culprit can be revealed.

correction to my earlier post.

after doing some checking, it appears that epoch DOES now allow affiliates to merge accounts and that they do not hold a reserve and haven't done so for a while.

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Originally Posted by djdez

Lee, You've got this 100% incorrect and its been made clear several times that Rainey went to work for epoch because she wanted a change. You of all people should understand that affiliate work burns you out.

Just to be clear Rainey approached Patrick for an open position. Patrick then called Harlan, David and I. As most people, he was stunned that Rainey was looking to move on. We've always been great friends with Patrick and he told us that he informed Rainey that he could not hire her without our blessing. As the story goes, we gave our blessing and remain very good friends Patrick, Joel, Rainey et al.

I don't like speaking for other people, but I do know that it was Patrick that approached Joel for a job, when he decided to leave ccbill. It was not the other way around.

Most likely this is the first time that the above was phrased the way it was. Regardless, it was not for your concern. Noone on this board or any one that does not include the companies involved have any right to know anything in this regard. Nonetheless, I hope this clears up this issue once and for all.

Perhaps if you avoid using your accusatory speach, you might actually get responses. As it is, and as it was in the aforementioned...its the sound bites that matter for the drama queens. Not the facts. The fact is that towards the end of the thread you're referring to, a good number of people were starting to see that the picture that was being painted for us by ccbill may actually not be, ahem, forthcoming.

Personally, I've never had a problem with epoch. I have had several problems with ccbill. Generally, they have been rectified. However, the last issue that I had with them I consider closed, but it still leave a very bad taste in my mouth. When a client of theirs made libelous statements publicly in email to 3rd parties and on this very board that (paraphrasing here) ' I know you're using underage models because I know the guy in one of the photosets that I stole from you', there is absolutely no excuse. CCBill should have terminated that client which they refused to do. Not because of their libelous actions towards us, but that at best he was not being honest, admitted to stealing content or worse he basically said he would knowingly use underage content. On the other hand Verotel, terminated that client immediately after he 'REPLIED TO ALL' in the dmca letter i sent him, his host and processors. I didn't even have to ask Verotel to do it, they did within 15 minutes of that webmaster's email to me that they were cc'd on.

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Bravo, Joe. Though isn't it amusing how this great post seems to have gotten lost in all the bitterness still being tossed about on this board?

Again, I think it's really important for anyone in this business to make sure they have the FACTS before they start tossing about potentially damaging accusations in a public forum.

Patrick and Rainey are not impressionable 5-year-olds. They are both adults who are old enough to make their own decisions in life. I have a very hard time believing that either one of them let Epoch "strong-arm" them into leaving behind their jobs at CCBill and PrideBucks, respectively. The truth is, people generally take new jobs because they are looking out for themselves and were ready to make a change. To accuse Epoch of poaching employees is not only libelous, but it's also insulting to Patrick and Rainey as mature individuals who are old enough to make their own decisions based on what they want for their own lives.

Threads like this one prove that when it really comes down to it, the message boards are really just places for bitter old self-righteous queens who are obviously insecure to feel better about themselves by stirring up drama about stuff that's ultimately none of their frickin' beeswax.

Okay, I'm done arguing in defense of myself.

Epoch never asked me, they never demanded me, and they never paid me to post anything I've stated on this forum posting.

I'm now to the point that I don't want to reply anymore because your not reading what I have had to say. That's your problem, not mine.

If you guys want to continue "fighting" and being drama queens, your going nowhere but around and around and around and around in circles.

Later

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Originally Posted by XXXWriterDude

Patrick and Rainey are not impressionable 5-year-olds. They are both adults who are old enough to make their own decisions in life. I have a very hard time believing that either one of them let Epoch "strong-arm" them into leaving behind their jobs at CCBill and PrideBucks, respectively.

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I am one of the people who made statements to the effect that stealing employees is not OK. And I stand by the statement. I've had to deal with headhunters attempting to steal my employees at various companies, and I think that, in general, they are the scum of the earth.

But companies contacting other industry people that they meet through shows and such is in a different category; if someone is unhappy or ambivalent enough to want to make a change, that's a little bit different, and that sort of thing goes on all the time, both in our industry and in most others. If it's handled appropriately, I don't see much of a problem with it.

Now of course, if Patrick and Rainey each contacted Epoch first, that does change the picture considerably... but what's really interesting here is that this could VERY easily have been disclosed at the outset to quell the concerns that were arising, and would have painted a completely different picture.

So Either Epoch has the absolute worst PR representation on the planet working for them (which I'm beginning to believe) or the entire story about who contacted who was fabricated to try and do damage control. (Also possible, but, given the parties involved, considerably less likely.)

As gossipy as the gay community is, companies should know better than to try to simply be silent on issues like this. Transparency is always the best course of action. Here's hoping that this incident, once resolved, will lead to greater transparency, so that those who are dealing with good and honest intentions can be seen for who they are, and those who are not so honorable can also be seen for who they are.

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Originally Posted by basschick

after doing some checking, it appears that epoch DOES now allow affiliates to merge accounts and that they do not hold a reserve and haven't done so for a while.

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Besides a recent strange business practice written about, Basschick reveals that Epoch, after many years, is FINALLY offering services to the small webmaster.

Thanks again for revealing such a news worthy Epoch change Basschick.

GREAT NEWS. Surprised I never read it here....
or in any of the Gay Webmaster forums that I read.

Blatant cheerleading is always tiresome.

That comment isn't directed so much at Seb... more in Lee's direction. Yeah, we get it. You hate Epoch and CCbill can never make a wrong move.

The truth is, as processors, both have strengths and weaknesses. But they both offer comparable services. And it seems that the most successful people have at least tried them both... and decided to use them both or the one that worked best for them.

Lee, have you even tried Epoch in the past 5 years? I bet if your revenue went up 15% or more, you would change your tune. Not that I'm suggesting that Epoch would perform that well for you. But hey, you never know until you've tried. Then I bet this whole Gay Forum controversy would fade from your mind. Because isn't that what it's all about... making more money and having fun while doing it?

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Originally Posted by gaybucks_chip

Now of course, if Patrick and Rainey each contacted Epoch first, that does change the picture considerably... but what's really interesting here is that this could VERY easily have been disclosed at the outset to quell the concerns that were arising, and would have painted a completely different picture.

As gossipy as the gay community is, companies should know better than to try to simply be silent on issues like this. Transparency is always the best course of action. Here's hoping that this incident, once resolved, will lead to greater transparency, so that those who are dealing with good and honest intentions can be seen for who they are, and those who are not so honorable can also be seen for who they are.

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Chip, sorry, but I totally have to disagree with you on this. You talk like it's everybody's business to know what goes on behind closed doors when employees are hired. The way I see it, who gives a shit??? Honestly, who fucking cares why Rainey and Patrick went to Epoch? Frankly, that is between Epoch and Rainey and Patrick, and it's not for any of us to judge or condemn.

I'm really sick of everybody feeling like they should have a say in how other people run THEIR businesses.

We know what we NEED to know: Patrick and Rainey quit their jobs and went to Epoch, where they both now seem very happy. Even if Epoch DID contact them first and offer them buttloads of money to join their team, that's not for us to pick apart on a public forum.

Sorry if I come off as bitchy, but honestly, I just don't know where this industry gets off spreading all this senseless, stupid gossip around the Net when, in the long run, it just doesn't fucking matter.

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Originally Posted by SebSloPro

Okay, I'm done arguing in defense of myself.

Epoch never asked me, they never demanded me, and they never paid me to post anything I've stated on this forum posting.

I'm now to the point that I don't want to reply anymore because your not reading what I have had to say. That's your problem, not mine.

If you guys want to continue "fighting" and being drama queens, your going nowhere but around and around and around and around in circles.

Later

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For the record, I wasn't directing my other comments at you.

i've never understood the epoch vs ccbill hullabaloo.

which company to use or not as the case may be is a business decision. nothing more, nothing less.

at the end of the day, the only thing i would care about would be which company increases my bottom line.

aka capitalism 101

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Originally Posted by XXXWriterDude

Sorry if I come off as bitchy, but honestly, I just don't know where this industry gets off spreading all this senseless, stupid gossip around the Net when, in the long run, it just doesn't fucking matter.

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It does matter if companies are going to hold themselves out publicly as working to bring the community together while instead working behind the scenes to splinter and damage the community and its resources for their own selfish interests, then that sort of information most certainly needs to be brought out.

Otherwise, the community as a whole suffers.

I do not believe that Epoch was itself responsible for this, but someone was. It would be nice to have those details made public by those who know, so that businesses can choose who they associate and do business with armed with the knowledge that they might be doing business with a company that says one thing and does another.

That, in my book, is why it matters.

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Originally Posted by gaybucks_chip

That, in my book, is why it matters.

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But Ken doesnt see why it matters because he works for one of the companies involved in the whole nasty mess... A company that, just like Epoch, has kept quiet about it all hoping its going to go away.

Regards,

Lee

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Originally Posted by Richard Craver

i've never understood the epoch vs ccbill hullabaloo.

which company to use or not as the case may be is a business decision. nothing more, nothing less.

at the end of the day, the only thing i would care about would be which company increases my bottom line.

aka capitalism 101

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Well, I agree with you to a point, but I think there should be a balance between just looking out for your bottom line and also looking out for the industry and best practices. Carrying or distributing bareback content might be very profitable, but you have to ask yourself if you want to possibly contribute to eroticizing behavior that can in many cases be life-threatening. I even understand why people were/are so pissed off about the Gay Phoenix Forum being canceled due, IN PART, to the scheduling of the GAYVN Retreat. The GPF was an AWESOME show, and I myself am very sad to see it go under. Knowing some of the backstage drama going on between the various companies doesn't help the situation either. But I was told last September, before the first GPF even happened, that it was likely that there wouldn't be a second one--and not because AVN or any other business wanted to crush CCBill's show.

Still, I think people need to put stuff like this in perspective and consider what's really important to their businesses in the long run, and also, frankly, whether any of this stuff is really any of their business. All this "Did you hear about Missy Lou's affair with the gardener" gossip-mill shit is just getting really, really old. It sounds like a bunch of old hens clucking about what's going behind the closed doors of their neighbors, tsk-tsk-tsk'ing their way into an uproar over stuff they don't really have any business knowing--not to mention spreading rumors about on a public forum. Talk about bad form. Sometimes the level of self-righteousness and cattiness makes my stomach turn. That's not what I call "best practices" by any stretch.

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Originally Posted by Lee

But Ken doesnt see why it matters because he works for one of the companies involved in the whole nasty mess... A company that, just like Epoch, has kept quiet about it all hoping its going to go away.

Regards,

Lee

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Lee, how many times have I objected to you or anyone else calling people out on this forum that had NO ties to AVN? Many, many times. I guarantee you that, regardless of whether I was working for any company that was being libeled in a public space, I would still object. No matter who is getting picked on, bad form is simply just bad form. So kindly refrain from using that tired "Ken is biased" crap on me.

I am, and will always, remain objective, regardless of who signs my paycheck. That's why God gave me free will and the power of intelligence, thank you very much.

I like the fact that Ken constantly addresses these issues and never backs down or plays the victim. It's nice seeing strong characters speak their mind and make solid points :groovy:

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Originally Posted by Squirt

I like the fact that Ken constantly addresses these issues and never backs down or plays the victim. It's nice seeing strong characters speak their mind and make solid points :groovy:

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Thanx, Squirt. You were, in fact, the THIRD person to send me either an email, an IM or make a post on a board congratulating me on something I posted in this thread. I appreciate the support.

I just think the mentality on the boards has become far too obtrusive and judgmental these days. And, from what I've seen, heard and learned first-hand, not that many people in this industry have that much room to throw stones. Somewhere along the line, almost every one of us has made a business decision that was purely motivated by our bottom line, but doing so doesn't change the fact that, ultimately, one still wants to service the industry and their community.

News flash: Except for non-profit organizations, there are very few businesses that exist solely for the purpose of community. It wouldn't be a business if it was. For most businesses, contributing to the betterment and strength of its community is simply the icing on the cake, not the main reason for being around. I guarantee you most business owners whose businesses bring together the community in some way thought at the outset, "There's got to be a way for me to make money off of helping the community." Make no mistake, though: Money is the main objective for most business owners. Otherwise, they wouldn't be good business owners. I'm sure many of them have taken shortcuts here and there to expedite the process, but, in my opinion, if at least 75 to 80% of what they do is good for the community, I can forgive the 20 to 25% that's purely for their pockets.

This is an incredibly clique-ish industry. Oftentimes, the dramas I see taking place seem to be based more upon one's relationship (or lack thereof) with the more high-profile industry players. So much of it feels like high school to me, and I find that is most exemplified on this site. It all feels so juvenile and immature to me. Let's not turn into the bullies who pushed us around in high school. Aren't we better than that?

When emotions are running high as they clearly are, people can find themselves with blinders on and the irony is those blinders nullify the calls for transparency and can prevent people from seeing what is in front of them.

While I am glad Joe shared the “back story” of Rainey’s move to Epoch to erase the serious misconceptions surrounding her departure. I did want to point out we were not holding back that information: since she had our blessing and as you now know, Epoch had our blessing, all of those who needed to know the most personal of details on an official basis were already in the loop. As far as transparency to the community however, the official news was broken by Joe in a thread posted on many webmaster boards that was as much a tribute as it was an announcement, to the extraordinary work Rainey did during her tenure at PrideBucks.com since that is something we were and are very grateful for. She remains someone we still consider “family” as our relationship transcended a purely a business one long ago and that is something that will not change.

It was a week or so after that post was made that we all, Joe, David, Rainey and I, attended the Xbiz Show together. When the threads started that announced Rainey’s move to Epoch, both Joe and I heartfully posted on those threads. Finally, Rainey and Juan attended GayVN Summit together so Rainey could officially pass the torch on and make sure everyone was introduced to Juan in his new official capacity. Of course not everyone attended those shows those though between Fubar’s and WebMasterLifestyle’s online galleries, those shows were well documented. Bottom line, between a dozen plus threads on half a dozen plus boards and two webmasters shows, the only thing that could have made the affability of this move any more transparent would have been for Joe, Dave and I to walk Rainey down the aisle in a ceremony covered by CNN (we actually thought about that but even though we had rented the “jaws of life” and hired the Ladies Regiment of the Royal Canadian Mounties, we still could not force Rainey to put on that damn dress…so we just abandoned the notion).

As far as lack of follow-up comment or back story concerning Patrick, I am very reluctant to speak for anyone BUT speaking for myself, since it involved some very public legal tussles involving contracts, non-competes etc, advice from lawyers on ongoing matters is “keep quiet” and the resolutions of them generally involve binding non-disclosure clauses.

Bottom line, Rainey and Patrick both have stellar reputations and deservedly so: with a more objective look at the circumstances and events of their moves, to imply they were unwitting pawns in some political chess match is an insult their experience, maturity and capabilities.

Likewise, and while I do tread lightly on the Pandora’s Box of the Gay Forum Saga, a more objective look at things also seem to be in order. PrideBucks was very involved in the GayPhoenixForum from several trips to the CCBill office to attend planning sessions to checking out some of the venues, to a gold level sponsorship, to designing the seminar programs to speaking on 3 panels and co-sponsoring a splashy off-site party on the second night with BadPuppy. While we appreciated the call from Sean at CCBill personally to let us know there would not be another forum, a classy move from a classy guy at a classy company, we were saddened but not surprised since many months had passed before there was even talk of dates being selected. The significance of that became clear during the regular Phoenix Forum when I looked at the inside cover of the Networking Guide and the back of the Program so see the dates for next year’s regular Phoenix Forum were printed there which means the dates had been set in stone a full year plus in advance. At the very least, that indicates not just “when”, but even “if” there would be a second gay phoenix forum was far from a slam dunk certainty. So with months having passed and no announcement of a second gay forum much less a date, AVN saw an opportunity and capitalized on it. Could that be called opportunist, indeed, but business is business and that decision is not dissimilar to what we all do everyday: find an opportunity and seek to profit from it. Was it a shrewd move – a cunning one: most certainly but at least to me, not the conspiratorial community splintering jihad that has been portrayed. With regular webmaster shows now occurring monthly if not more often in some cases, 2 gay shows spread over a year is not a huge stretch of the imagination. At least on the back of my gay card, it does not say that October and the West Coast is the only time and place a gay webmaster conference could be held: there are 11 other months and many other geographic choices that could have been chosen if CCBill was committed to having a second forum. This does not mean CCBill is anything other then gracious, supportive of our community and a wonderful processor: I would say the same thing for Epoch.

We are all in this to make money and we all make our living one sale at a time: perhaps the best way to mind our business starts with minding our own business.

WELL...

My thanks to XXXWriterDude and Harlan, for your wonderful writing skills and being able to explain details. I personally see no reason for me to continue asking questions, with the current soap opera, due to Harlans FULL comment.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Harlan

When emotions are running high as they clearly are, people can find themselves with blinders on and the irony is those blinders nullify the calls for transparency and can prevent people from seeing what is in front of them.

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What I remain concerned about, as one of the many small players in this game is

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Originally Posted by Harlan

We are all in this to make money and we all make our living one sale at a time: perhaps the best way to mind our business starts with minding our own business.

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And that is where I take issue. Some call my Gay lifestyle a NICHE. I personally am dealing with severe competition (as we all), with successful Gay programs merging and Straight programs wanting a piece of the Gay pie.

I find no fault in many here questioning the BIG COMPANIES, for their decision to have or not have a show, to close websites, and all of the variations trickles down and affects ME.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by wnc

WELL...

What I remain concerned about, as one of the many small players in this game is And that is where I take issue. Some call my Gay lifestyle a NICHE. I personally am dealing with severe competition (as we all), with successful Gay programs merging and Straight programs wanting a piece of the Gay pie.

I find no fault in many here questioning the BIG COMPANIES, for their decision to have or not have a show, to close websites, and all of the variations trickles down and affects ME.

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wnc, thank you for your response which reminded me that sometimes it is both what you say and how you say it so please let me clarify we are in total agreement: this is the perfect place to ask questions of companies big and small - the dangerous territory I saw being entered into was not the posing of the questions, but answering them without the benefit of having all of the facts and establishing an enviroment so combative it would be all but impossible for those who were in the know to comment one way or another. This is likely to never be an issue to everyone's satisfaction and while some may forgive, some may forget, I hope most of us will simply move ahead.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Harlan

Likewise, and while I do tread lightly on the Pandora’s Box of the Gay Forum Saga, a more objective look at things also seem to be in order. PrideBucks was very involved in the GayPhoenixForum from several trips to the CCBill office to attend planning sessions to checking out some of the venues, to a gold level sponsorship, to designing the seminar programs to speaking on 3 panels and co-sponsoring a splashy off-site party on the second night with BadPuppy. While we appreciated the call from Sean at CCBill personally to let us know there would not be another forum, a classy move from a classy guy at a classy company, we were saddened but not surprised since many months had passed before there was even talk of dates being selected. The significance of that became clear during the regular Phoenix Forum when I looked at the inside cover of the Networking Guide and the back of the Program so see the dates for next year’s regular Phoenix Forum were printed there which means the dates had been set in stone a full year plus in advance. At the very least, that indicates not just “when”, but even “if” there would be a second gay phoenix forum was far from a slam dunk certainty. So with months having passed and no announcement of a second gay forum much less a date, AVN saw an opportunity and capitalized on it. Could that be called opportunist, indeed, but business is business and that decision is not dissimilar to what we all do everyday: find an opportunity and seek to profit from it. Was it a shrewd move – a cunning one: most certainly but at least to me, not the conspiratorial community splintering jihad that has been portrayed. With regular webmaster shows now occurring monthly if not more often in some cases, 2 gay shows spread over a year is not a huge stretch of the imagination. At least on the back of my gay card, it does not say that October and the West Coast is the only time and place a gay webmaster conference could be held: there are 11 other months and many other geographic choices that could have been chosen if CCBill was committed to having a second forum. This does not mean CCBill is anything other then gracious, supportive of our community and a wonderful processor: I would say the same thing for Epoch.

We are all in this to make money and we all make our living one sale at a time: perhaps the best way to mind our business starts with minding our own business.

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HOORAY FOR HARLAN!!! What a gracious, well-thought-out and objective post. It's about time someone came forward with a well-balanced take on what's been going on. :)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by wnc

What I remain concerned about, as one of the many small players in this game is And that is where I take issue. Some call my Gay lifestyle a NICHE. I personally am dealing with severe competition (as we all), with successful Gay programs merging and Straight programs wanting a piece of the Gay pie.

I find no fault in many here questioning the BIG COMPANIES, for their decision to have or not have a show, to close websites, and all of the variations trickles down and affects ME.

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There's no fault at all in questioning companies--big or small--about business practices. Doesn't mean they have to answer, though. :)

There's a difference between asking questions and posing the questions as accusations, as many on this board are want to do, though. My objections are with this odd sense of entitlement that many seem to have. They think they have some kind of right to know the inner workings of other organizations, and if they don't, they accuse those businesses of underhanded dealings. If this business were truly about transparency, then webmasters would never be allowed to decline interviews for feature stories in AVN Online simply because they didn't want to give away trade secrets. You don't hear me flying into fits of rage when WhateverBucks rep Joe Blow says, "I can't answer that question about our traffic. We don't want out secrets getting out."

Transparency is great, I agree, but tact is even more important, and if the people in this industry don't figure out the balance between the two, then they may never graduate from being small-time players to the big leagues they obviously so desire to be part of. It's great to think one's self noble and righteous, but the danger is that one can become self-righteous and sanctimonious, which has been well demonstrated on these pages in these threads.

I've said this before and I'll say it again: AVN took advantage of a situation that was both beneficial to us and presented a major opportunity for us to benefit the community as well. For us not to have done so would have been a foolish move on our part. That's my personal opinion, and it's one that any level-headed business person would agree with. And that's really all that needs to be said, as far as I'm concerned. That's what people NEED to know. The rest, frankly, is none of their damned business.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by XXXWriterDude

HOORAY FOR HARLAN!!! What a gracious, well-thought-out and objective post. It's about time someone came forward with a well-balanced take on what's been going on. :)

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Well its nice to get the info that we all asked for at the start of all this.
And it makes more sense to me now.
But why was this info just not given to us at the start of all this!!!
It's a pity that all this back and forth and bad will could have, for the most part been avoided.
Maybe all of your hands and lips were tied about this, but it was the silence that put all of you in the position that you are in now.

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Originally Posted by CamCruise

Well its nice to get the info that we all asked for at the start of all this.
And it makes more sense to me now.
But why was this info just not given to us at the start of all this!!!
It's a pity that all this back and forth and bad will could have, for the most part been avoided.
Maybe all of your hands and lips were tied about this, but it was the silence that put all of you in the position that you are in now.

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Um, have you ever tried to get five gay men to choose on one restaurant, let alone coordinate their statements so as not to publicly step on each other's toes? LOL!

I'm kidding, of course! Well, partly. But to be honest, the majority of people doing all the griping were those who, frankly, don't even attend or support shows in the first place. It may come as a shock to some, but the majority of business between all the companies involved isn't getting done by spending time on message boards. Some of the people invovled have much more important things to do than come on here and address the crap that gets said about us all the time, most of which is totally untrue and/or motivated by personal vendettas. After a while, you just start ignoring it completely. Like Madonna. :)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by XXXWriterDude

There's no fault at all in questioning companies--big or small--about business practices. Doesn't mean they have to answer, though. :) There's a difference between asking questions and posing the questions as accusations, as many on this board are want to do, though. My objections are with this odd sense of entitlement that many seem to have.

I've said this before and I'll say it again: AVN took advantage of a situation that was both beneficial to us and presented a major opportunity for us to benefit the community as well. For us not to have done so would have been a foolish move on our part. That's my personal opinion

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by XXXWriterDude

Um, have you ever tried to get five gay men to choose on one restaurant, let alone coordinate their statements so as not to publicly step on each other's toes? LOL! I'm kidding, of course!

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AVN was never an issue. Business is business.

Gosh. My issue is with EPOCH, suddenly going GAY.

Read another thread where someone WELL KNOWN here asked a question - and a SUDDEN EPOCH response. I hope MY question in that thread is also responded to as quickly.

http://forums.gaywidewebmasters.com/...ad.php?t=23527

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Originally Posted by wnc

I hope MY question in that thread is also responded to as quickly.

http://forums.gaywidewebmasters.com/...ad.php?t=23527

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Keep on hoping, you may get an answer one day :)

Regards,

Lee