Just got this back from Rand at Epoch...
A shame i couldnt do the same thing and refuse to let any of the Epoch reps post on GWW without it being misconstrued as 'drama'.Quote:
I'm sorry. After some consideration, Epoch is not interested in working with your program at this time.
They dont want to process for my site yet they will happily post about their services on GWW, kinda seems two-faced to me but whatever helps them get new clients i guess.
Regards,
Lee
Not to start or contribute to more drama, but this is really surprising.
I mean, the way I look at it, Lee, your talking to Epoch about adding cascading billing certainly seemed like an olive branch from you intended to move past all of the nastiness.
I can understand why Epoch might feel slighted about all of the bad press they got over the GayVN/Gay Phoenix Forum debacle, but at a certain point, business is business, and I think people should take the opportunity to mend fences whenever possible.
Maybe there are other factors that aren't being discussed here, but on the face of it, I'm really surprised. I guess Epoch STILL doesn't have somebody with PR smarts on staff.
However... I'm sure Verotel will be more than happy to have your business, and CCBill's cascading option is in beta now, so perhaps not that big a loss for you.
Im not really sure what other factors could come in to play, i hadnt even sent them a link to one of the new sites or submitted any application at the time of Rand telling me this, if i had done that and something was 'odd' looking in the application i could understand it, right now it just looks like petty childishness.Quote:
Originally Posted by gaybucks_chip
No biggie though, it just means that CCBill, yet again, stands out in a class of their own :)
It does make you wonder how many clients currently processing with Epoch are going to be suppressed from airing their views about Epoch on the boards through fear of getting their accounts closed though, or how many non Epoch clients will discuss them on open forums through fear of being refused processing through them if what is said isnt 'positive' towards Epoch :eek:
Regards,
Lee
It's funny, Morgan is spamming the hell out of Epoch on the boards. You have to read a little between the lines to see it. But every thread he starts it seems like Rand and a few others are so damn quick to jump in and claim the virtues of cascading billing.
Jesus. Give me a break. Don't these people know that us little gay webmasters are better word of mouth than circus clowns.
Recent hires at Epoch have left me a little scared as well. It's all well and good that you hire from one processor to another, but when you start hiring those that worked at affiliate programs with "connections" to others in the industry always leaves a bad taste in my mouth.
One of my main rules is I will not host with any host that has a paysite. Too much temptation... If you know what I mean.
Of course these are just my thoughts.
Lloyd
Cascading billing is great, as long as you conform to the standards of the processors offering it and dont question their heavy-handed business practices.Quote:
Originally Posted by abostonboy
Be carefull what you say Lloyd, you might not be allowed to process with them either for stating your opinion on their business practices!!!
Regards,
Lee
I know cascading billing is great.
Yeah, I thought of that before I posted. Not too worried. To be quite honest I don't think I would want to process with them anyways. As I said I still have a bad taste in my mouth.
Lloyd
how very immature if Epoch let whatever personal feelings they have towards Lee in the way. I'm surprised to see this happen. From a big company nonetheless
And it would be even more immature if it's because of the Phoenix Forum fiasco. It's like a child that did something bad and now throws a hissy fit over being punished! Come on! You schedule your forum around the same time, dubious as to why you do it in the first place, cause the already established and well-liked event to close and everyone gangs up on you for what looks like a very fishy behavior. Normal action-reaction ...
the question is - if you dont want Condom Cash then why come here, surely letting lee cascade with you is just as bad as being on his board - unless...
This would be like a small town holding a meeting to ban the new development of a Wal-Mart super center and Wal-Mart telling them, once they open, you cannot shop here.
Now that gave me a chuckle... perfect analogyQuote:
Originally Posted by IdolKnights
In the interest of being fair to Epoch, I do think some lessons were learned about the Phoenix Forum/GayVN summit fiasco.
I don't know if anyone noticed, but Epoch quietly gave in on the exclusivity issue, and CCBill is now among the cosponsors for the GayVN summit.
I also believe that Rand indicated somewhere that Epoch had taken a significant step back from their involvement with the Summit because, if I remember correctly, "there were disagreements on the direction in which it was going." They are still sponsoring, but I think perhaps they did realize that the advice they had received (or bought) was not as good as they thought it was and figured moving into the background was sensible.
More than anything I just wish everyone could get along. Perhaps Rand or someone at Epoch can contact Lee and explain why Epoch isn't interested in his business.
I do think, if Lee gets information and chooses to share it, this would be useful to other webmasters in making decisions about which processor to use. It is pretty scary to think that one of the only two credible US-based processors is basing decisions about processing that should be based on relative risk and other business factors on the strength of personal biases rather than good business.
I really hope that isn't the case, and I really desperately hope that Epoch will soon hire somebody that really understands the value of PR and how silence, bad decisions, and pettiness can do serious damage to a company's reputation in a community that is already fractured, dramatic, and gossip-laden as the gay adult webmaster community is.
I really do think this is the case afterall, Epoch had nothing else to base their choice on.Quote:
Originally Posted by gaybucks_chip
I never even submitted a processing application to them because before I could, i was told they werent interested in working with me.
One can only assume because I publicly announced that the direction they were headed with the GayVN summit was wrong, a direction which even they themselves later agreed with and reversed course :eek:
So in effect, even though they realized a lot of us were right and they kind of did listen by reversing course, those of us who were vocal whilst this was all going on had better not want to process any sales through Epoch because they wont be interested in working with any of us it seems.
Regards,
Lee
I would also be interested to know if them not wanting to work with me includes on affiliate accounts also?
If so, please let me know what you would like me to tell the program owners the reason for us no longer sending them any traffic should be as i request that they close our accounts down.
This could have a very bad knock-on effect for a lot of programs using Epoch as a processor in sales volume.
Regards,
Lee
I just hope they didn't pay too much for that advice. Lots of webmasters could have helped them for free.Quote:
Originally Posted by gaybucks_chip
Word of mouth is a powerful marketing tool. Unfortunately this time word of mouth is doing nothing but hurt them.
Lloyd
I like the part where Lee asks Rand a question at 08-15-2007, 04:56 PM and Rand gave a Reply at 08-15-2007, 05:18 PM (That's 22 minutes) in the initial thread.
This thread was posted at 08-15-2007 09:37 PM and here, 14 hours later, nothing.
Speaks Volumes and I would only fear, as a client, how their service matches up.
Quote:
Originally Posted by IdolKnights
Yet Rand has been viewing this thread for the last 30 minutes and still hasnt replied, i guess that, yet again, silence is going to be the tool they use so that everyone forgets about this whole incident, it worked well for them before after all :thumbsup:
Either that or he's a$king Morgan what he should say in his reply LOL
Regards,
Lee
What I don't understand is the lack of PR (As Chip stated twice)
Where as any and all legitimate business has a PR rep who defuses any situation. Even when it's something as simple as "We are further investigation the situation and cannot respond until further facts have been identified" And let it die out because people go "Ooh, They are fact finding"
Oh God. Please. A$$$king Morgan?Quote:
Originally Posted by Lee
Lloyd
Enter Morgan stage left....
Regards,
Lee
I think you have a couple of facts wrong here guys. I have no idea why Epoch has declined to process for your sites Lee. One thing I know about both of the IPSPs being discussed here is that they never turn away a potential client without a valid business reason. Before you cast aspersions that have no factual basis you should find out what those reasons may have been. This is looking like a case of Sour Grapes.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lee
Second, the AVN/GayVN Retreat this Fall is entirely managed by AVN/TCI, not Epoch or Cybersocket. Their never was a ban on CCbill being able to sponsor the event. It is simply that Epoch and Cybersocket and a handful of other companies were the first one's approached by AVN/TCI to sponsor. Not one of the sponsors of this year's event has attempted to force AVN/TCI into declining sponsorship dollars from any willing company. Ask them.
As for CCBill and Cybersocket, things are quite cordial. They came to our pre-pride party in NYC and I went to their party in Florida. And we still use Epoch, CCBill, and our own merchant account in our cascading billing. We have no plans to drop either of them and as far as I know they have no plans to drop us. :banme:
Thats total bullshit Morgan and you know it...Quote:
Originally Posted by OffshoreGayPorn
http://forums.gaywidewebmasters.com/...9&postcount=41
Why even bother lying to us about this? Everyone knows what happened anyway LOL
Regards,
Lee
Anyway back on topic...
If anyone from Epoch wants to let me know the truthfull reason why they dont want to process for me at this time ill be waiting for them to get in touch with me :)
Regards,
Lee
Hey Lee,Quote:
Originally Posted by Lee
I agree with Ron 100%. This is all just a normal function of competitve business. Really not a vast conspiracy against or even for any one or anything. It is a normal, healthy business environment.
Ron was incorrect on one count. There never was an exclusive contract precluding them from sponsoring the Fall Gayvn Retreat.
This is not a spin it is a simple fact. You can hate it all you like and believe whatever fiction you create. Still does not change facts.
:cash: :cash: :cash:
Interesting how there appears to be revisionist history here.
In this post from months ago, Pridebucks Joe defends the right of Epoch to make an exclusive sponsorship agreement with AVN. Now, if this hotly discussed topic were incorrectly stated by Joe, one would suspect that SOMEBODY -- either Epoch, CCBill, Cybersocket, or someone with knowledge of the topic, would come forth and clarify.
But instead, Ken posts and, while discounting any specific knowledge of whether or not an exclusive agreement exists, he supports Joe's statement. Granted, he was speaking "unofficially" but AVN was certainly aware of what he was saying, and like it or not, someone posting from AVN is, in the absence of anyone else from AVN speaking, going to be perceived as a voice of AVN.
It seems unlikely (or at least, horrendous PR) that a statement implying defense of a supposedly nonexistent exclusive arrangement would be left unchallenged if no such agreement were in place. Yet no one from any of the parties said anything to refute the implication, which, in my mind, serves as mute agreement.
Not trying to make mountains out of molehills, and not trying to fix blame. On the contrary, I was trying to say that somebody (Epoch) had actually learned from a misstep and made the right move, and that they should be recognized for taking the stand-up approach.
Like I said before, I just wish people would communicate. I would still like to believe there's a legitimate business reason that Epoch made the decision about Lee that they did, and while Epoch can't make that statement publicly, they can certainly speak to Lee, and then announce that they have done so, to avoid any possibility of Lee having the details and not sharing them. (Not saying Lee would do this, just that Epoch could cover themselves by doing that.)
Let's try and nip this one in the bud before it becomes another big stink. Epoch, it's your call. Talk to Lee and be clear on the situation, and let him clarify it for the rest of us.
As for the Summit, let's be happy that both CCBill and Epoch are finally (or were always, depending on whom you believe and what the evidence says) both able to sponsor this event.
In all honesty im not expecting any further communication from them about this and to be fair, even if they did it wouldnt matter in the slightest.Quote:
Originally Posted by gaybucks_chip
Both Gary and I are still in two minds whether its just going to be 'fair' for us to blanket ban all the Epoch reps and company names from GWW in its entirity afterall, if they dont want to do business with us, we should at least honor their wishes and make it easier for them to stick with their decision.
Regards,
Lee
Banning them in retaliation for not supporting one of your business entities while participating and therefore adding value to another is not a businesslike decision.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lee
Chip, as I said before you have facts in error. I choose to answer for my company. That others do not feel compelled to respond to the self-serving error laden vitriol so common here is only a testament to their advanced maturity and therefore my lack of it.
I play your game with you. If for no other reason than I find it an amusing sport.
:yeah:
We are looking forward to a a very successful GAYVN Retreat this October.
We have the support of many fine companies - whatever drama happened in the past - let it go.
If anyone has any questions they may contact me directly.
Of course its a business decision, if they dont want to do business with me, why should i do business with them? :eek:Quote:
Originally Posted by OffshoreGayPorn
Just like when you were banned, it was a great business move, GWW got busier and there was less 'fluff' being posted.
I still havent been contacted by Epoch to let me know the reason they dont want to process for me though, yet again it looks like they are letting the mafia do the talking for them whilst they stay silent :(
Regards,
Lee
I agree with this. We need less fragmentation, not more. Banning will only fan the flames because it will be seen as more drama.Quote:
Originally Posted by OffshoreGayPorn
Morgan, I've not intended to assert this issue as fact, because I am not in a position to know the facts. I am also very quick to acknowledge any errors I've made, or change my position as new information comes to light that warrants change. Nor do I think anything I've ever stated regarding these issues was self-serving. If you disagree, I would like to know where I've done this so that so I can prevent this from happening again in the future.Quote:
Originally Posted by OffshoreGayPorn
I think that anyone, including you, who chooses to speak out with the intention to clarify is doing the community a service. But I do have to disagree with the notion that silence is beneficial (or mature) in this situation, and I'm saddened that you consider this a game, because I don't.
It has never been my desire to inflame, to politick, or to play games with anyone. I have always believed in transparency and honesty in communications, and while perhaps the approach that AJ and I have taken to operating our businesses is seen by others as naive or holier-than-thou or something, we have never thought of ourselves that way, and we do our best not to judge the decisions that other companies make, unless those decisions are harmful to the community as a whole.
I am in favor of unity within the gay adult community, and I have always believed that communicating, airing controversies with the intention of resolving them amicably, calling people on behaviors that don't serve the best interests of the webmaster community as a whole, and finding ways to work together rather than segmenting or creating factions is, ultimately, in everyone's best interest.
I also try my best to be a straight shooter, and if somebody says something that seems disingenuous or doesn't add up, I will point it out, as much so it can be clarified as anything else. I hope that people will do the same with me.
I do remember several people posting and saying that CCBill was reporting that it was not allowed to sponsor the GayVN retreat, and more than one person defending the value of exclusive sponsorship (which, in principle, I do not have a problem with under most circumstances.) In fairness, I also remember Epoch sales staff saying there was no block on CCBill sponsorship, but CCBill saying there was. It just did, and does, seem odd that the principal parties didn't and don't wish to clarify the situation and are instead allowing a company that asserts it is a secondary party to speak for them. Now if Cybersocket is the designated PR representation for Epoch, and is speaking for Epoch in that role, then that's a different matter altogether, and changes things considerably. But as far as I know, nothing has ever been stated to that effect, and so I don't assume that's the case.
Again, I am not in a position to know the details on any of these issues one way or another. I do believe, based on what I have heard, that CCBill's hands are not clean on the GPF cancellation issue, and CCBill management has, by nearly all accounts, said some extremely hurtful and damaging things about gay webmasters that would probably significantly alter the perception if the information were generally known. But in this case, since I am not first party to that information, I don't wish to further inflame things by repeating hearsay.
On the GPF/AVN Retreat and related issues, there's an argument in favor of simply saying "It's in the past, let it go", and that might be the best choice. But by doing that, we also reward the culture of silence and lack of transparency, and I honestly do not believe that serves the interests of anyone except those who might be seeking to do deals behind closed doors at the expense of the community as a whole. (Not saying there are such deals, only that it's the only argument I can think of against transparency.)
So in my mind, there is no perfect solution.
I believed that Lee's actions were intended as an olive branch to Epoch. Perhaps they were instead a desire to create drama, but in any case, it is surprising that Epoch has not volunteered to clarify. I did suggest to Lee that he proactively contact Epoch and seek clarification, and then report to the community, so that people would be in a position to know if Epoch's decision with regard to Condom Cash has potential implications for other outspoken webmasters.
One of the most promising (to me) things about the adult business is the way that, when we all work together, we can actually all make *more* money than if we segment ourselves. This is the rare business situation where the mentality of abundance as opposed to scarcity actually enhances individual wealth.
It would be a huge disservice to everyone if we allowed gossip, innuendo, obfuscation, fear, or greed to harm what could, if people simply opened up to one another, be a community-based business model that could bring better influence to bear with political forces, and also allow each of our respective businesses to grow and prosper.
What can we *all* do to move in that direction?
So is anyone from Epoch actually going to get in touch with me about this or what?
You were quick enough to contact me when i was asking about using your processing services.
Regards,
Lee
I would think that it would be much more professional of both you and Epoch to have this discussion off the forums.
MORGAN/EPOCH
You are one and the same? Right?
Expect a long reply on Thursday. Right now I am busy buying my bf a ring.
But come Thursday I AM NOT AFRAID OF THE FAT UGLY WOLF!
Expect a LONG reply. I am not a dumb fuck.
regards,
lloyd
Let's just forget we bombed Iraq to. that's the easy way outlQuote:
Originally Posted by AVNChris