Flash vs DRM vs drm free WMV?

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03-13-2008, 02:42 PM
aaronjacob

Flash vs DRM vs drm free WMV?

Hey guys,

I'm Aaron - and I do the design, writing, photography and webmastery coding stuff for Straight Hell. I'm new here, and there's a few things I would love to pick your brains on as I'm relatively inexperienced at running proper paysites...

Since we found a load of our videos on gay torrent sites, my boss has been on at me to start DRMing our videos. He thinks this will help both with piracy and member retention.
I'm not so sure though. I think it will probably be fraught with problems and inconvenience paying members and Mac users. It only takes one person to strip the DRM (which isn't hard) and they're likely to be the same kind of person who uploads to a torrent site.
What do people think about the effect of DRM on member retention though? Will it help prevent Joe Average from joining, downloading everything, then cancelling and joining again 6 months later?

I've been thinking of alternatives to DRM that might satisfy my boss.
Does anyone use Flash streaming instead of WMV? It would still technically be downloadable, but not by your average member of the public, so would that increase member retention - if most people were only able to watch the movies on the site itself?

Any other ideas? Thanks in advance for any input!
03-13-2008, 03:13 PM
TropixxxStudios

Hey,
One one of my sites I have a brand new type of Flasher Based DRM that works perfectly on Widows Vista, XP, Mac OSX, AOL, IE, Firefox, Safari and on ALL INTERNET CONNECTIONS from dial up on up.

It is provided via PPVNetworks,

http://www.ppvnetworks.com/ppvnethome.nsf/flasher

Damain (PPVNetworks) is very easy to work with, and a great guy. I am sure he can answer any questions you might have better than I can.

DRM will help with your average member retention, thats for sure. Because once they leave, they can't watch the videos anymore.

Good luck - Michael
03-13-2008, 04:09 PM
Jasun

DRM is a waste of time and money. DRM companies are professional money wasters and even they will privately admit that you don't need their service.

It doesn't do any of the things that it's supposed to do... (like protect your content from being pirated) and it does things you don't want it to do (like preventing your paying customers from viewing your content).

DRM doesn't work and it never did. It never will.

I remember sitting in a seminar a few years ago with a guy telling the audience that they would all go to jail for providing porn to minors if they didn't use his service. He admitted to me later that it was something that he just came up with as a scare tactic.. even HE knew it was bullshit.

When all the big sites like Sean Cody, Corbin Fisher, Fratmen, Jake Cruise and Randy Blue were all using DRM, our content was ALL over the torrents and file sharing sites. Using DRM didn't slow the pirates at all.

But the number one reason people gave me for leaving our site was that they couldn't get our movies to play. The number one reason for people calling up and asking for refunds was that the DRM conflicted with their Firewall or their security settings.

I'm not saying not to worry about those but I will say that the people who steal your content probably weren't going to pay for it anyway. If your site consistently turns out good content and your site is worth joining, people will join your site.

When we dropped DRM our membership went up. Noticeably. But I don't see any more or less on the file sharing networks or torrents.

I know how annoying it is to see your stuff get stolen but all I can say is that if you want your site to make money, you need to spend less time and energy fighting people who dont' want to pay for your content and spend more time and energy catering to the people who DO.
03-13-2008, 04:56 PM
TropixxxStudios

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jasun

DRM is a waste of time and money. DRM companies are professional money wasters and even they will privately admit that you don't need their service.

It doesn't do any of the things that it's supposed to do... (like protect your content from being pirated) and it does things you don't want it to do (like preventing your paying customers from viewing your content).

I think that DRM does protect your content from 99% of the users that might be tempted to share your work on a file sharing basis, yahoo group or otherwise. I do not think that any DRM solution is perfect, and of course there is ALWAYS going to be someone that finds a way around whatever DRM you are using.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jasun

DRM doesn't work and it never did. It never will.

I think that was true maybe two years ago, or even a year ago, but I think that different solutions have been presented (like FLASHER DRM) that works.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jasun

I remember sitting in a seminar a few years ago with a guy telling the audience that they would all go to jail for providing porn to minors if they didn't use his service. He admitted to me later that it was something that he just came up with as a scare tactic.. even HE knew it was bullshit.

Sounds like he was just an asshole. God knows the industry is full of them.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jasun

When all the big sites like Sean Cody, Corbin Fisher, Fratmen, Jake Cruise and Randy Blue were all using DRM, our content was ALL over the torrents and file sharing sites. Using DRM didn't slow the pirates at all.

Well, DRM is not a solution for everyone. Of course there will always be the guys that target the big dogs like Sean Cody, Corbin, Fratmen, et.all. You have TONS of content that make ripping you off worth the risk. (In their eyes.) And of course, those that look for free porn will NEVER pay for porn anyway, so DRM is more of a "Lets keep the honest ones honest."

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jasun

But the number one reason people gave me for leaving our site was that they couldn't get our movies to play. The number one reason for people calling up and asking for refunds was that the DRM conflicted with their Firewall or their security settings.

We have NEVER had an issue yet with this using FLASHER. Hmm...maybe a new technology has arrived that might be worth looking into?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jasun

When we dropped DRM our membership went up. Noticeably. But I don't see any more or less on the file sharing networks or torrents.

Interesting. But again, none of our members seem to complain.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jasun

I know how annoying it is to see your stuff get stolen but all I can say is that if you want your site to make money, you need to spend less time and energy fighting people who dont' want to pay for your content and spend more time and energy catering to the people who DO.

This is perhaps the most valid point. But, all I can say is this, with FLASHER, it is really not that much time or energy used to "fight" it. You simply send your content off to PPVNetworks, and in about a week, it is up on your site and running.

I guess in closing, all I can say is that I used to be very much opposed to DRM. But after seeing what PPVNetworks had that was different from everyone else, I gave it a try, and am pleased with the results.

As far as cost? Well, I got a sweat deal and I am not sure everyone else would get the same one...but it is a lot more reasonable than you might think. I would at least look into it. (Even you Jasun, might want to re-look into FLASHER from PPV.)

- Michael
03-13-2008, 05:15 PM
Jasun

Quote:

Originally Posted by TropixxxStudios

I would at least look into it. (Even you Jasun, might want to re-look into FLASHER from PPV.)

- Michael

Forget it.

people want to download the movies and keep them.

I often get asked "If I join, can I download your movies? Do they still work after we quit using them?"

If it works for you, great. I know that my customers hated the DRM and many quit because of it. Our membership skyrocketed once we got rid of it and I know that all the other big players are all dropping it for those reasons.

I know that my stance on this has made me rather unpopular (Sean Cody's lawyer threatened to sue me on stage at the last seminar where I was a panel), but I mean it. DRM doesn't work, isn't needed and will just waste time and money fighting people who were never going to join your site.

My opinion is and will always be that you should spend your money and time adding things to your site (live shows, bonus behind the scenes video and stills, a production blog) that is either hard or just impossible to pirate and your site will be worth joining.
03-13-2008, 06:20 PM
gaybucks_chip

Flash can be downloaded if you have a tool to do so (widely available on the web, often for free) but in practical terms, most people don't use them, so you're a lot more secure with your content in flash, with or without DRM.

On the other hand, when you install Strongbox, it seems to provide some level of protection even for Windows Media files; I know that before I installed it, I could easily download our WM files and now I don't seem to be able to.

Adobe is working on an end-to-end DRM solution for Flash but as far as I know, it isn't yet available.
03-13-2008, 07:08 PM
basschick

aaronjacob, at this point DRM will protect your content from average users, but it will also hurt your retention - it did on all the sites i work with. something else you might want to consider. a lot of our members cancel and rejoin every few months. the ones i talk to say they remember to rejoin when they watch one of our videos that they saved to their harddrive. assuming your site has the same situation, you'll lose those rejoins.

the truth is that most members download the videos before they watch them, so offering streaming-only isn't going to do good things for your retention, either.

one other not-so-fun thing about DRM is that when the company serving the license is down, your members can't watch your videos. and that does happen periodically no matter who you use.

there's a reason that large, well-known sites like fratmen and corbinfisher have stopped using DRM.
03-13-2008, 07:34 PM
aaronjacob

Quote:

Originally Posted by TropixxxStudios

Hey,
One one of my sites I have a brand new type of Flasher Based DRM that works perfectly on Widows Vista, XP, Mac OSX, AOL, IE, Firefox, Safari and on ALL INTERNET CONNECTIONS from dial up on up.

It is provided via PPVNetworks,

So that will just plug into a paysite and protect the videos which would be streamed with flash? I think it might be too expensive a solution but I will certainly show the bosses for future reference if we do any new VOD stuff.
Thankyou!
03-13-2008, 07:40 PM
aaronjacob

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jasun

I'm not saying not to worry about those but I will say that the people who steal your content probably weren't going to pay for it anyway. If your site consistently turns out good content and your site is worth joining, people will join your site.

When we dropped DRM our membership went up. Noticeably. But I don't see any more or less on the file sharing networks or torrents.

I know how annoying it is to see your stuff get stolen but all I can say is that if you want your site to make money, you need to spend less time and energy fighting people who dont' want to pay for your content and spend more time and energy catering to the people who DO.

I completely agree with everything you've said actually, it makes so much sense. I too would rather concentrate on putting out good content for honest paying members.
And yes, people who want to upload torrents of our stuff are definitely going to know how to google "stripping drm" or suchlike. It only takes one unscrupulous member!

How do Titan deal with it? Do they just throw unlimited money at lawyers?
03-13-2008, 07:45 PM
basschick

i believe titan has in-house lawyers.
03-13-2008, 07:47 PM
aaronjacob

Quote:

Originally Posted by basschick

aaronjacob, at this point DRM will protect your content from average users, but it will also hurt your retention - it did on all the sites i work with. something else you might want to consider. a lot of our members cancel and rejoin every few months.

there's a reason that large, well-known sites like fratmen and corbinfisher have stopped using DRM.

Thanks basschick.

This is what is swaying me - that is how I would generally use a paysite as well - joining every few months with the slightly higher non recurring fee. It's just the way it is. I would rather work with that 'real person' mindset than fight against it with DRM and force them into staying or annoy them into never joining again.

I'd love to know how Corbin Fisher have done since dropping DRM - do they have noticably more (or even less) members/retention? And is there much more of their content pirated that they've found?
03-13-2008, 08:27 PM
Jasun

I'll tell you a funny story.

I touched on it earlier, actually.

I was on the anti-piracy panel at the GayVN retreat and told people that I was a paid member of Sean Cody but that I was unable to view the content because I have a mac. For that reason, I would go to torrent sites and download it but I still paid for my membership.

His lawyer threatened to sue me (in front of the rather confused audience) for stealing the content.

I find it funny that the lawyer's solution was to sue a paying member who had been reduced to finding alternate means of viewing the content he paid for since the site's method of delivery wasn't working.

I pointed out that..

a) It's not "stealing" if you pay for it.

b) It's obvious that the DRM protection isn't protecting shit if I can download content within minutes of it being released to SeanCody.com anyway.

c) if there's a product that you're using that's not stopping pirates but stopping paid members, wouldn't the solution be to stop using the product and not sue customers who were forced to find alternate means to view the content?

(he whispered that he wasn't REALLY going to sue me. I looked at him with that "bitch please" look and said "I'll sleep easier tonight.")

members (rightly so) feel that they should be buying the content forever. If they buy the product on DVD, they'll have it forever, if they buy it on the web it should be no different. If YOU are placing restrictions on them and Rapidshare ISN'T, who you YOU think they're going to get their content from?
03-14-2008, 05:22 AM
mickey

Just want to throw in my 2 bits..

It depends a bit on how you look at it, as i see it, being a member of a site doesnt mean that you can enjoy the content once your membership runs out, just as you cant keep watching the movie you rented at blockbuster.

If you tell your members that they can download and continue to watch the movies once their membership runs out DRM is the pits (is anyways but thats another matter) - the fact that members believe they should be allowed to watch the movies from a paysite to the end of time is a leftover from the beginning of the internet where we didnt have any other good options than mpg/vivo etc, so ofcourse making the change now is next to impossible as the surfers expect to be able to view the movies after their membership expires..

Having been a support person for a huge niche site that used and still use DRM on their member movies i can personally tell you that DRM worked for the first 2, perhaps 3 years after it was released and has been going downhill ever since then.. If you get into the market now with a paysite i wouldnt go the WMV DRM route no matter what...

I have not tried the Flasher DRM solution so cant give any advise in that directions but imo normal flash streams would keep "normal" users from stripping your site..

Now i might be wrong on the stuff above, but thats how i see it.
03-14-2008, 07:44 AM
aaronjacob

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jasun

I'll tell you a funny story.

I touched on it earlier, actually.

I was on the anti-piracy panel at the GayVN retreat and told people that I was a paid member of Sean Cody but that I was unable to view the content because I have a mac. For that reason, I would go to torrent sites and download it but I still paid for my membership.

His lawyer threatened to sue me (in front of the rather confused audience) for stealing the content.

...

members (rightly so) feel that they should be buying the content forever. If they buy the product on DVD, they'll have it forever, if they buy it on the web it should be no different. If YOU are placing restrictions on them and Rapidshare ISN'T, who you YOU think they're going to get their content from?

That's hilarious! Your experience reminds me of that blog where they post letters which music fans send to bands. The fans enclose 10 dollar notes and stuff, and write sincere apologies for downloading their music off bittorrent!

I too agree that members probably feel ripped off if they don't get to keep the content - because of the very true reasons Mickey points out below. It's not ideal, but that's the way it is.
03-14-2008, 08:05 AM
basschick

mickey, first off DRM means 10% less customers at the gate because no mac users can watch DRM videos. then you'll probably lose at least another 2% of other users who can't use DRM - and that reminds me, can the most common programs that play WMV in linux watch videos using DRM?

then whether webmasters like it or not, a lot of guys join sites not to watch the videos but to save the ones they like to their collection. they won't charge back, but a lot of them won't rejoin and won't rebill for as long because they're not getting something they want.

of course, a microniche site will fare a little better than a standard site on this. if you have the only site in a niche or one of the very few, you'll always do better because there's nowhere else members can go. but even so you'll lose around 12% off the top with people who can't watch the videos at all, and i'd be interested to see stats on these sites with and without DRM.

Quote:

Originally Posted by mickey

Just want to throw in my 2 bits..

It depends a bit on how you look at it, as i see it, being a member of a site doesnt mean that you can enjoy the content once your membership runs out, just as you cant keep watching the movie you rented at blockbuster.

If you tell your members that they can download and continue to watch the movies once their membership runs out DRM is the pits (is anyways but thats another matter) - the fact that members believe they should be allowed to watch the movies from a paysite to the end of time is a leftover from the beginning of the internet where we didnt have any other good options than mpg/vivo etc, so ofcourse making the change now is next to impossible as the surfers expect to be able to view the movies after their membership expires..

Having been a support person for a huge niche site that used and still use DRM on their member movies i can personally tell you that DRM worked for the first 2, perhaps 3 years after it was released and has been going downhill ever since then.. If you get into the market now with a paysite i wouldnt go the WMV DRM route no matter what...

I have not tried the Flasher DRM solution so cant give any advise in that directions but imo normal flash streams would keep "normal" users from stripping your site..

Now i might be wrong on the stuff above, but thats how i see it.
03-14-2008, 12:42 PM
krunnch

I have worked on some of this technology for my day job. I agree that DRM is not practical. Yet.

There is no technical reason that it would be impossible. It just hasn't been done in an elegant way. So far.

Lots of people say things about various technologies "that will never work". It usually turns out to mean "not until the next Google, Youtube, Myspace, .... figures it out".

Just $.02
03-14-2008, 01:20 PM
TropixxxStudios

Quote:

Originally Posted by basschick

mickey, first off DRM means 10% less customers at the gate because no mac users can watch DRM videos. then you'll probably lose at least another 2% of other users who can't use DRM - and that reminds me, can the most common programs that play WMV in linux watch videos using DRM?

With WMV DRM this is true, BUT NOT WITH FLASHER. I am a mac only person, I would never use any DRM that would not allow Mac user to watch...hence the FLASHER based DRM solution. So, DRM does not mean 10% less viewers...(if you go with FLASHER versus wmvDRM)

Quote:

Originally Posted by basschick

of course, a microniche site will fare a little better than a standard site on this. if you have the only site in a niche or one of the very few, you'll always do better because there's nowhere else members can go. but even so you'll lose around 12% off the top with people who can't watch the videos at all, and i'd be interested to see stats on these sites with and without DRM.

Well, from what I can tell, the site in question is a MicroNiche site, so DRM might still be the best solution for him. ;o) Plus, I would imagine that they would not even be asking this question if there was not a problem with retention? Maybe I am wrong.
03-14-2008, 10:26 PM
aaronjacob

Quote:

Originally Posted by TropixxxStudios

With WMV DRM this is true, BUT NOT WITH FLASHER. I am a mac only person, I would never use any DRM that would not allow Mac user to watch...hence the FLASHER based DRM solution. So, DRM does not mean 10% less viewers...(if you go with FLASHER versus wmvDRM)

Well, from what I can tell, the site in question is a MicroNiche site, so DRM might still be the best solution for him. ;o) Plus, I would imagine that they would not even be asking this question if there was not a problem with retention? Maybe I am wrong.

If I was going to support a DRM solution, it would definitely be something like Flasher rather than the usual Windows only stuff. But it still wouldn't be ideal.

With retention, what would you say is a decent retention ratio compared to a poor one, for a niche/microniche site? (Sorry, I did say I'm quite new at this!)
03-15-2008, 10:43 AM
mickey

Quote:

Originally Posted by basschick

mickey, first off DRM means 10% less customers at the gate because no mac users can watch DRM videos. then you'll probably lose at least another 2% of other users who can't use DRM - and that reminds me, can the most common programs that play WMV in linux watch videos using DRM?

then whether webmasters like it or not, a lot of guys join sites not to watch the videos but to save the ones they like to their collection. they won't charge back, but a lot of them won't rejoin and won't rebill for as long because they're not getting something they want.

of course, a microniche site will fare a little better than a standard site on this. if you have the only site in a niche or one of the very few, you'll always do better because there's nowhere else members can go. but even so you'll lose around 12% off the top with people who can't watch the videos at all, and i'd be interested to see stats on these sites with and without DRM.

believe me i would say 12% at the moment is low as there are some well known problems with WMV DRM and WMP11 and/or Vista, so i would say you lose more than 12% if you go with a WMV DRM setup but as i said in my orginal post, i would never do WMV DRM now..

I sadly can not list the numbers for our niched sites when we went from no-DRM to DRM only movies a few months after DRM hit the scene but believe me when i say that we went up in retention and made more money using pay per view than before...

When i started my own site last year i didnt go for a DRM solution as i didnt want the trouble and i personally dont feel that WMV DRM is a workable solution anymore.. Will look into flasher DRM but with the price etc it might not be worth it for me at this point..