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What is to be expected but newer webmasters who are unable to make any money in the industry?
Especially when some of these people who are supposed to be 'helping' others, dont even know what a TGP is $0.02
I dont know if i am more amazed that people are listening to the advice of these individuals or that these individuals are actually trying to help others.
Regards,
Lee
Well...even though I've been involved with adult for about 6 years now, there are still a lot of things I don't know about. Thus, if I give out advice, it's about something I have tested and has been successful for me. I have met very few adult webmasters who do well with all the major types of promotional platforms - blogs, tgps, review sites, tube sites, free sites and the list goes on. I believe that we all have certain things that we're best at. That doesn't mean someone can't be good at a few different things, just that being good at several is rare in my experience.
I am also of the strong opinion that having a working knowledge of html, css and if possible, basic php (even just setting up a basic database), will always make things a little easier for someone involved in this business. Those skills can be learned through many forums online and free of cost. I started learning that way about 10 years ago and there are many more boards available now than there was then.
Learn, watch and learn is motto. I will never stop learning and that's one of the things I love about life. A thirst for knowledge (from the right sources), is a very good thing to have in our business.
My 2 cents
While it's true many newcomers to the industry often give advice that isn't exactly useful, insightful or based on experience - I don't think its a good thing to belittle or discourage people from sharing the little they know simply because they're new or inexperienced.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lee
Rather, I'd leave it up to the reader to decide between what's useful and what's junk.
We all operate at various levels of experience and areas of expertise. Someone may not know what a TGP or FHG is - but they might be a whiz at photography production, photo editing, graphic creation, html-scripting, various aspects of marketing and promotion...etc.
How many people here know what alt.binaries is in reference to? Probably not many given the fact that usenet is no longer used much as a viable promotional venue by the newer generation of webmasters. But back in the day - usenet was integral to gaining exposure for many content producers and providing traffic to commercial websites.
That said - I wouldn't denegrate someone for not knowing certain aspects of the industry in general. It's detrimental to the spirit of sharing.
You're right of course. No one should make folks feel stupid for asking questions. I think Lee was more frustrated at the bad advice following bad advice that often happens on the boards, and no one bothers to say, hey, that's not quite right.
Seems a bit of a non sequitor, Lee.
As in, what inspired these words of dismay?
I think that newbies following the advice will quickly learn that they are being led down the wrong path and adapt to following the advice of someone else.
alt.binaries - that is where all the old grainy magazine scan porn I keep on 1.4 MB disks came from right?Quote:
Originally Posted by SirGuy
I received some bad advice when I first started as well but learned in time who to trust and even then still usually ask for a second opinion when something is going to affect my sites or business.
I remember when the hot thing was for noobs to run webmaster resource sites.
I think some advice giving noobs are more interested in getting their ref code out there among webmasters than making sales.
We sure do you a lot of the blind leading the blind, and maybe even more newbies
copy crap from random sites. I remember when I was new to this business, in fact
almost all of us were new at the time (1997). We tried to help each other out and I
think that was good. What may be important, though, is for the person trying to help
to acknowledge what they know and what they don't, and for the reader to pay
attention to that.
Let's say there's a question about some Apache feature. Often, one webmaster will
say "it works like this ..." and someone else, maybe myself will say "that's not quite
right, it works like this ... ". The reader doesn't know who to believe, or maybe they
only see the first reply and don't check back.
It would probably be better for the replies to go like this:
random person: I used that once last year, and from what I remember ...
me: I created that Apache feature and wrote the code. Here's exactly how it works ...
I've seen it in my other field (art) far too much, where there are less rules and the answers are even crazier and more obnoxious.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lee
Off the bat and in a general sense, though, that thinking makes me a little hesitant to share anything as a novice. (I know, you wrote this mostly to encourage us to chatter?) However, when I do share info here, it's hopefully something in my area of expertise, especially design and aesthetics, since I am and have been a professional artist (and teacher at times) for over 25 years (really 35+). So I feel no hesitancy in that area, yet also must watch out that I'm not bigger than my britches about it so I can still learn. I hate to say this, but I think people die when they stop learning...at least something. What we know can get boring, what we don't know animates and excites us.
Actually I think one of my first posts was your thread about sorbet. And I still think about it!
Interestingly, not all professional artists, business persons or experienced webmasters agree on all things, that's for sure. Not even when answering some newbie questions. More interesting is if agreement prevailed on most all things, a forum would be unnecessary except to publish news, what programs and companies are good, bad, trustworthy, paying, not paying. Important but nonetheless pretty dry stuff.
Unless new members are somehow tested and certified as knowledgeable webmasters, the situation you described is just something any board really of any kind has to deal with. Each person must develop their "street smarts" about what they hear, read, believe. There's nothing wrong with a private, exclusive forum if a bunch of people/webmasters want it, nothing at all. But that's not what this is, and I think it's very healthy and stimulating for a variety of people with different experience and backgrounds to engage with each other. Don't you, really?
In a strange way, I'm comforted by your post. It leaves a newbie free to ask questions more than anything, which honestly is the reason why I joined, and hesitated to join. At first I was concerned about what I actually contribute to this forum if I'm only asking questions. However, I've found or believe that beginners' questions can be enlightening because: 1. they ask what other novices and even sometimes more advanced webmasters may have been reluctant to ask, 2. even if the topic is something you know, sometimes a new point of view is given or some new twist.
I do understand when downright misinformation is given out, it's not a good situation at all. It's a pain when you have to clarify someone else's misinformation, but happens. Hope I haven't made people have to do that.
I think we all expect some mis-information to get dished out. Either through misunderstanding the question, or the experience related had to do with another version of such and such, and yes, the deliberate sabotage by some to undermine the efforts of others. All any of can do is take what we read and decide for ourselves if the answer equates an honest, informed response.Quote:
Originally Posted by tim460
There are times when even the most knowledgeable person will not teach as well as the person who has just been doing it a few years. Teaching isn't just showing someone something.
Oh, I'll take the guy doing it day in and day out over book learning any day!Quote:
Originally Posted by Doc
That is not what I meant. I meant that if a person does not know how to teach he will not teach as well as someone who can even though that person has less experience.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bec
Good point. It's all about the ability to communicate ideas clearly, and in a way that each particular individual understands. We all think, speak, talk differently. And to know what's important when...so on. Sometimes people who know a lot can't teach because they presume who they are teaching knows more than they do, too.Quote:
Originally Posted by Doc
Bec's point is also right on target.
Its not really a matter of 'teaching' though if you think about it, sure its great to be able to show someone step-by-step but realistically, who has the time these days to do that without it having a knock-on effect on their business?Quote:
Originally Posted by Doc
Over the past 4 years i have actually cut back the amount of 1-on-1 time i give people asking questions because if they dont get the answer they want, you can spend all day, every day with them and they STILL wont follow your advice or instructions.
Regards,
Lee
Makes sense. I don't know you personally, but that can happen with people who care enough to give, and don't realize they are giving too much. So personal lines have to be drawn like the ones you described.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lee
Being a teacher or in the role of adviser is one part knowing when to say no. The other part is giving up some control and expectations, or you'll drive yourself and others nuts. That's hard to do, especially when you see people making mistakes. It's life.
After reading this hours later it even confused me! What I meant was "...they presume the student knows more than the student really does."Quote:
Originally Posted by tim460
the problem is that a the kind of people i think lee is talking about is that they think they know something and they teach it to others, but it tends to be stuff that doesn't actually work. those who teach it tend to assume something works based on their own logic, but in fact they have not tried it or have tried it and but have not found it to be successful. they assume, however, that it will be successful at some point.
and a lot of those people say it with such confidence and assurance that newbs and those who aren't making money tend to listen. they assume that much confidence means it has worked for the person posting.
there was one such person, and the funny thing is he's actually a really nice guy. but nothing he does in adult actually works - he's sure it will, though, and got tons of part timers and newbs to do what he strongly advised and taught step by step. the difference was that he did adult as a hobby and didn't need to earn any money, and when all these newbs and part timers took his advice, it tended to cost them money and time, and never had a return.
I understand. Truthfully I already lost some time by following what sounded like authoritative advice but didn't work right. Consequently, I'm learning when, how, who to listen to. Thankfully to say the least, most of the people I've consulted on these boards, particularly a couple of folks, are really incredible.Quote:
Originally Posted by basschick