Straight guys creating/marketing Gay sites

Am I the only one who's seen an influx of Gay sites, straight owned, that have a bangin front page and tour.. but are VERY thin on content? I've had subscribers to my sites email me about what they call "rip off" sites.

I have no problem with straight people marketing Gay sites, or vice versa ( I have a site with lots of straight sex ) , but I do have a problem with the guys taking our traffic and ripping off subscribers and making them more paranoid about signing up with other sites.

What do you think about this? What has your experience been?

Squirt,

I would tend to agree with you on the basis of this debate however, it should also be pointed out that it isnt only indicative of the gay market, or, straight webmasters / companies.

In fact, i could point out countless amounts of straight sites (both gay and straight owned) that do this exact same thing.

I do however feel that when it comes to the gay market to some extent, the fault does lie with the owners of such sites who have the mindset that they need to flood the industry with as many sites as possible whilst not knowing enough information about the types of markets or niches that they have paysites for. Im going to see if i can get Sarah from Webinc over here to reply to this thread to as she and i have had a conversation on a similar topic to this a few months ago specifically about how many of the straight webmasters treat others in the industry both male, female, gay and straight.

Of course back with the topic at hand, i think part of the issue specifically with the gay sites side of things is that many of the straight companies who do operate gay websites really have no clue what they are doing because they look at us as just another niche which as everyone here knows, we arent ;)

IMHO it all boils down to they want to make money in the gay market however they really dont know enough about it or, where to find further information about the variety of niches we have and of course, there are also those webmasters who do know where to find the information but because they have a fear of being ridiculed by posting on 'perceived' gay boards by their peers they wont ask for or, accept our help :(

Then there are those webmasters who are straight and think they know everything about the gay market whilst continually goading gay surfers and webmasters because they seem to think they have more right to be correct all of the time despite the reality that they really know nothing and most of what those individuals think they do know, is either stale information that worked several years ago or is complete mis-information given to them by people who know no better.

Will be good to see what everyone else on GWW thinks about this topic too i know from past conversations with various community members there are some strong feelings about this subject overall :thumbsup:

Regards,

Lee

Thanks for the information. I think that sites like this that are marketing Badpuppy are doing it no favors. They are diluting the BadPuppy brand name and when surfers see the Badpuppy logo on sites they will start to equate it with that site that looked real hot, with lots of content, that only had a few galleries and a video.

I totally agree with you on every point you made in your post.

We are obviously not a niche.. but the Gay market does have niches and most straight companies have no idea how to market the Gay web. My only fear, from seeing the influx of these straight owned, cookie cutter sites, is that they burn surfers and take up so much traffic, that they are starting to do harm to our business. What do you think about this?

You are right about the straight webmasters goading Gay webmasters and surfers, thinking they know it all. Their information is clearly old. How do we deal with this?

Well, as a member of the BBW community I think our two communities suffer the same fate in many ways when it comes to our industry. Both have been invaded by webmasters who are repulsed by us and what we do but who think there is a quick buck in exploiting our community. It shows in the sites bg time if you are a member of the community yourself. Ddon't even get me started on the number of times I see 'chubby chaser' on a straight themed BBW site or when they aruge with me that BBW stands for big busty women and not big beautiful woman ..pick a fight with someone who is a bit more clueless kids.

The other thing is that on public industry boards I will see people that represent programs with these sites being very insulting towards big women and the same goes for being insulting towards gay men while having a banner for a program with a gay site in your sig. Now, I have a buisness head but beyond that I have my pride and I am now making it a point of writing to program owners when someone flying their banner is being abusive towards a BBW on a board and letting them know why I will be taking banners down. Why should I pay these people to insult me?

Yet, the funny thing is that at the convention and on icq, I have some of these SAME people coming to me and asking me for advice in the niche. Too wimpy to talk that way to me in the flesh.

I have to say that I've experienced this as well on one board I've posted at lately. I've posted on a few boards a while back and had no problems. One board I've been posting at lately has a straight guy promoting Gay turnkey sites. I know he watches this board as well. When I post trying to help there... I'm treated like an idiot and an adversary.

It's frustrating because on one hand you don't like what they're doing, but want to help them be successful so we can all make some money and they can do things right. On the other hand, after being treated unfairly it makes you just want to close the industry to outsiders and keep it for our own.

If you're straight and want to make money great.. let's do it! I know a couple straight guys in the industry that are top notch, know what they're selling and do good business. But don't be straight, come to the Gay web and rip off our community and think we'll stand idly by.

I said two years ago that the overall quality of gay sites online was about to go down the toilet.

People need to stick to the niches they know and love themselves. Anything else and it's just a shot in the dark. The most you can do is attempt to emulate the genuine sites from the niche and hope you get it right.

With gay sites, no straight webmasters have ever gotten it right that I've seen except for maybe stud sites since even a straight man knows what a "real man" looks like.

Well I'm doing some SEO today and am amazed at the number of cookie cutter, obviously straight owned, sites there are taking up the top spots. I'll have to do something about that :-D Bummer it takes so long for SEO to show results.

Funny how the first few pages of the results under "straight guy" are for Queer eye for a straight guy.. bleah!

The good thing about this is that when surfers do come across the quality sites with quality content they will appreciate it much more. In the end, content is king and these guys aren't about to go out and film gay sex for a buck HA HA HA and only so much quality Gay content they can buy.

just imagine what us bi and lesbian chicks think when we see 99.9 percent of lesbian sites out there ;)

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Originally posted by sarahwebinc
just imagine what us bi and lesbian chicks think when we see 99.9 percent of lesbian sites out there ;)

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I could only imagine what it must be like coming across site after site promoting your lifestyle as a "niche" and content that is created/produced not for the bi/lesbian women, but to fulfill the fantasies of straight men. You're a smart cookie.. I'm sure you use it to your advantage :-D

Well, we all should because there is some truth to the notion that the more crap and obviously clueless sites there are out there the more valuable the quality sites that properly adress the market become. You were very right when you seperated out the terms market and niche. The clueless ones will treat gay as a niche (and BBW for that matter) and just do a shot in the dark at general sites but totally blank out (because they don't know) the niches WITHIN the market. I bet half of them don't even think of gay people having a large number of the same fetishes that straight people do..shock!

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Originally posted by sarahwebinc
just imagine what us bi and lesbian chicks think when we see 99.9 percent of lesbian sites out there ;)

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Now there's a depressing subject to go with my morning coffee ... sigh. There should really be another "title" for sites that cater to the 2 women fantasy ... cause those sites sure aren't for or about lesbianism.

yes the lesbian market is a tough one. even when someone does create a truly lesbian site, for lesbians, it is overwhelmed by huge amount of sites that are aimed at straight men. it would be pretty tough to successfully market a true lesbian site to that community

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Originally posted by Bec
Now there's a depressing subject to go with my morning coffee ... sigh. There should really be another "title" for sites that cater to the 2 women fantasy ... cause those sites sure aren't for or about lesbianism.

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Bec, you've got me wondering now. Can you show me a lesbian (sex) site targetted to true lesbians? I feel like I'm getting a bit of an education in this thread.

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Originally posted by RainGurl
yes the lesbian market is a tough one. even when someone does create a truly lesbian site, for lesbians, it is overwhelmed by huge amount of sites that are aimed at straight men. it would be pretty tough to successfully market a true lesbian site to that community

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I'm curious.. is www.lesbo101.com what lesbian women really want? I came across this site a while back and thought if I was a lesbian, I'd like this site. What do the lesbians/bi girls here think of this site?

Bec.. I think a good name for a site created for the straight man .. lesbian fantasy should be "fantasy girls" . Usually I could come up with a whole list.. but it's 7:14 am here and I haven't had my coffee yet LOL

No, lesbo101 is built for the male market. A group of lesbians did have a network of sites up at one time and marketed under cyberdyke.net but that seems to be down now. The only still active one that I see from that group is the BDSM site by Darkplay.

As to marketing a true lesbian porn site to lesbians/bi sexual women, it'd almost have to play off as a subniche on a 4women site, or be able to find some mainstream sites/chat rooms/magazines/local community newspapers, etc that are targeted at the lesbian community that would run an ad. The biggest part of its success I think would rely heavily on word of mouth, and we all are aware of just how fast the gay community can let other "family members" know what's going on via emails and IM's!

A pretty good "giveaway" on whether it's for men or actually for lesbians is the amount of camera eye contact - there should be little to none, are both women in highheels, lotta makeup, long ass fingernails ...ouch!... & are there really any sets that show butch/femme women? Is there actual cunniligus or is it faked? And is there a real community feel attached to what's offered? Are the products aimed at women or men? Just some points to consider.

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are both women in highheels, lotta makeup, long ass fingernails ...

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... meaning this would be targeted to the male audience. Basically, two really beautiful super models acting out together and looking at the camera alot is for men.

for me the no no on lesbian sites is when they have mega long fingernails that most of us that have HAD lesbian sex is unrealistic if you are going to be using those fingers in anywhere fun.


I have often wondered what would happen if the magazine On Our Backs did a Suicide Girls type of community.

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Originally posted by Bec
and looking at the camera alot is for men.

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exactly...get your face in there girl. If you can't you don't belong there in the first place.

http://www.cyber-dyke.net/

I've always thought this one was interesting.

Is anyone familiar with it?

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Originally posted by Topbuckslee
http://www.cyber-dyke.net/

I've always thought this one was interesting.

Is anyone familiar with it?

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Yeah that's the one Bec was talking about I think. Now .. to my untrained eye.. THAT looks like a full on true lesbian site!

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Originally posted by Squirt
Yeah that's the one Bec was talking about I think. Now .. to my untrained eye.. THAT looks like a full on true lesbian site!

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Ah, my oops - forgot the dang dash, so yes, it's still live and kicking and yes - THAT is FOR lesbian women.

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Originally posted by sarahwebinc
exactly...get your face in there girl. If you can't you don't belong there in the first place.

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LMAOPIMP ... thanks for the chuckle!

?? Sarah will you be going to Internext Expo - Vegas Jan. 4-6, 2005 ??


LOL....
LOL....
LOL....
LOL....
LOL....
LOL....
LOL....
LOL....
LOL....


teasin you...

but... will you ??

the Cyber-Dyke.net site looks NICE....

~Bell


p.s. if long fingernails get in my way they still look NICE holding purchased "thangs" and my tongue doesn't scratch... :)
my nose doesn't either.... :)
so there.... (sticking up for the Lipstick-Lesbos-Is-My-Mission... smile...)

What do you think the insurgance of these straight owned campaigns for adult Gay business is going to bring?

Will they flood our market like they have the straight market or will our Gay surfers catch on and avoid the cookie cutter sites like the plague?

sarahwebinc - it's not just sites that are abusive to bbw's. pretty much every mainstream porn company's movies are named things like horny hippos. because they are uncomfortable with bigger women, they assume everyone is - but when you buy print mags, and read the readers letters, they think the women are lovely and sexy. obviously nothing in porn has a hint what the potential paying members want.

the same with mature sites, usually. the guys who make them don't care for mature women so they call 40 year olds grannies and try and show 32 year olds they can call mature.

if you're selling to a market, you should keep in mind that the market you're selling TO really likes what they like - even if you don't.

i'm not sure the lesbian sites are aimed at views' tastes. this is all straight men are offered, so it could be more what porn directors THINK straight men want - or what the porn companies want.

i sure don't care for lesbo101. from the title - i don't care for the term "lesbo", this site holds no appeal for me at all.

you know what i see in all these sites? the girl with her back to the camera is more interested in showing us her pussy than turning on the woman she's with. and most of those girls can barely stand to touch a pussy with their tongue extended fully - with the very tip of their tongues, i might add. if you don't like the taste, get out a vibrator and give your partner a good time, i say!

but the bottom line with all the fake lesbian content is that it's ONLY about turning on men, not the other person in the video.

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Originally posted by Bell
?? Sarah will you be going to Internext Expo - Vegas Jan. 4-6, 2005 ??


LOL....
LOL....
LOL....
LOL....
LOL....
LOL....
LOL....
LOL....
LOL....


teasin you...

but... will you ??

the Cyber-Dyke.net site looks NICE....

~Bell


p.s. if long fingernails get in my way they still look NICE holding purchased "thangs" and my tongue doesn't scratch... :)
my nose doesn't either.... :)
so there.... (sticking up for the Lipstick-Lesbos-Is-My-Mission... smile...)

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I don't know yet, I hope so but I haven't been told anything by work.

well, as a straight guy marketing a gay site, I have to say I agree and disagree with a lot of what's been said on this thread. First of all, we can't generalize and categorize people or companies as there are so many different companies and individuals selling gay content out there, some are straight, lots are gay. We can't just say, "hey straight guys, you don't know what you're doing, 'cause you're not gay, so stop ripping us off with your nice glossy coverered, but crappy content site."

One thing is sure, it's a good idea to have at least one gay guy around if you're looking to create, promote and sell a gay guy site.

But what is a "straight owned company"? One who's boss is straight and all employees are straight and who are promoting gay sites? Or , a company who's boss is straight, and everyone else except for one guy who's gay and who's responsable for the site. Again, it's unclear and each individual company has it's story. But in general, I agree that attacking the gay market with no gay people in the company, who've no interest or respect for the gay market, in an aim to make some loot using a minimum amount of content is a sad but real fact of today's industry.
That said there's gotta be lots of gay sites out there created by open minded straight people who just know what the gay market want and know how to deliver it and make money from it, and ain't nothing wrong with that.
:baby:

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Originally posted by basschick
sarahwebinc - it's not just sites that are abusive to bbw's. pretty much every mainstream porn company's movies are named things like horny hippos. because they are uncomfortable with bigger women, they assume everyone is - but when you buy print mags, and read the readers letters, they think the women are lovely and sexy. obviously nothing in porn has a hint what the potential paying members want.

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exactly. When I look for BBW sites to promote there are two things that will make me decide for sure not to offer it to my sufers. Firstly, if it has a title which is insulting - hippo,etc..fatty depends on how it is used but usually that is bad too. The second one is if they just feel the need to throw a cartoon style doughnut or slice of pizza into the design. Read any magazine targetted at the BBW/FA community and the pure love and lust felt towards BBWs by their 'fans' is evident and that is the same in any community based on attraction to a body type or fetish.

You know who else needs to be in this thread? Pam. She deals with the same things with her hairy sites.

hey squirt,

hit me up on ICQ, I'd love to see if we could do business together !

:high:

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That said there's gotta be lots of gay sites out there created by open minded straight people who just know what the gay market want and know how to deliver it and make money from it, and ain't nothing wrong with that.

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I absolutely agree .... and this board is supportive and welcoming of anyone producing gay sites, regardless of their personal orientation. But the key to the whole thing is in where you make the statement that they "know what the gay market wants and know how to deliver it".

We've all seen sites that are tossed together with images of guys and labeled "gay", and no clue on terminology, niches, lifestyle and so on, and a lot of the people doing this aren't comfortable in coming to a board like this one to really get a "clue" about how to do it right. If they aren't comfortable in getting educated about a niche or market, gay or otherwise, then in my opinion, they have no business cluttering up the web with a site featuring it.

I agree completely with you Bec.

Ok, let's turn it around for just a sec (just to get some juicy gossip going) I'd be interested to know how many gay people run straight sites and yet have no interest in that market personally. In your opinion, does this exist? If so, to what extent, and anyone got any examples, of both good and bad sites?

:bomb:

For me it isn't a requirement that the person building and marketing a site is attracted to the content but it is a requirement that they respect it.

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Originally posted by sarahwebinc
For me it isn't a requirement that the person building and marketing a site is attracted to the content but it is a requirement that they respect it.

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agreed. i know of quite a few "straight-owned" companies that produce quality gay sites. i also know of "gay-owned" companies that produce shitty gay sites. i think it mostly comes down to how much effort the person, regardless or orientation, is willing to put into the concept and creation of the product. i think there are two categories of people who are destined to fail: those who take a straight template and replace the girls with guys and call it a gay site, and those who are arrogant and assume that they know what gay men want becacuse they can tell the difference between a good-looking guy and an ugly one. There's so much more that goes into the creation and marketing of gay sites and if you want to be in it for the long-haul, you need to do a little research.

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Originally posted by RainGurl
agreed. i know of quite a few "straight-owned" companies that produce quality gay sites. i also know of "gay-owned" companies that produce shitty gay sites. i think it mostly comes down to how much effort the person, regardless or orientation, is willing to put into the concept and creation of the product. i think there are two categories of people who are destined to fail: those who take a straight template and replace the girls with guys and call it a gay site, and those who are arrogant and assume that they know what gay men want becacuse they can tell the difference between a good-looking guy and an ugly one. There's so much more that goes into the creation and marketing of gay sites and if you want to be in it for the long-haul, you need to do a little research.

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Agreed on all sides. I don't think you can say it's the straight community that is bringing down gay porn. I think it's uneducated people that bring down any niche or market. There are many more crappy straight sites out there than crappy gay ones. Almost every major sponsor has crappy members areas. I see people promoting BBW sites with content where the girl is like 140 pounds. To me, that girl is not a BBW. I do mostly hairy stuff, and the sites I see are appalling. I think you can take any market and niche within that market and find a crap load of crap. It's just the way it is, and will always be. People looking for a quick buck with no work or research involved. The good news is, these people/sites won't last long. Do what you do, do it well, and you'll be fine. Don't worry about what others are doing and how bad their doing it. If you're good, you'll last. If you're not, you won't.

Their are tons of straight people doing great work in the gay market, and their are tons of gay people doing great work the straight market. The problem is ignorance not sexual orientation.

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if you want to be in it for the long-haul, you need to do a little research.

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You've got that part right ... I know I spend hours and hours researching, studying sites, reading boards and whatever else I can tap into to learn about a niche I'm unfamiliar with before I even think about assembly.

As to the question of gays running straight sites, yes, I do ... but I'm doing more of the link list or tgp type structure at the moment, a handful of gay free sites and a few galleries of both markets here and there before I take on a bonafide full blown straight niche with the one exception of my lesbian site (for men) ... at least that content doesn't gag me quite as bad LOL. In the meantime, I research, gather the upsell sponsors and content I want and then I'll build a few I've been wanting to market.

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Originally posted by totemack
One thing is sure, it's a good idea to have at least one gay guy around if you're looking to create, promote and sell a gay guy site.

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I get it.. like a token fag or something? :-D


My attention has been drawn to the straight guys creating/marketing gay sties. I don't know about Gay "companies" etc. I don't think a real 100% Gay company exists.

"using a minimum amount of content is a sad but real fact of today's industry"

I don't agree with that. If you have the content, you put it up and subscribers keep coming back.

"That said there's gotta be lots of gay sites out there created by open minded straight people who just know what the gay market want and know how to deliver it and make money from it, and ain't nothing wrong with that. "

I agree with you there. Nothing wrong with working together to make money and doing right by the customer. It's just when straight people bring their slash and burn marketing mentality to the Gay market that I get frustrated, it just makes people more weary of our products/services.

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Originally posted by totemack
I agree completely with you Bec.

Ok, let's turn it around for just a sec (just to get some juicy gossip going) I'd be interested to know how many gay people run straight sites and yet have no interest in that market personally. In your opinion, does this exist? If so, to what extent, and anyone got any examples, of both good and bad sites?

:bomb:

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I'm totally interested in the straight market. Straight men are a turn on for me and watching them fuck girls is as well. :wtf:

RainGirl "i know of quite a few "straight-owned" companies that produce quality gay sites. i also know of "gay-owned" companies that produce shitty gay sites. i think it mostly comes down to how much effort the person, regardless or orientation, is willing to put into the concept and creation of the product. "

I agree with that and the problem I have is these misleading sites that are glam on the front and have very very little content. They are well thought out on the outside to bring the customer in so someone has spent a lot of time on concept and creation to think out what they're doing.

MacDaddy "Agreed on all sides. I don't think you can say it's the straight community that is bringing down gay porn. "

I have to disagree there MacDaddy because, for those of you who've been around a while, remember how we saw the way straight sites marketed, spammed and ripped customers off and thought " boy we're glad that's not our market " And now they've come onto our turf with the same marketing techniques etc. with lame content and ripping off subscribers.

MacDaddy "The good news is, these people/sites won't last long." Right, but as they evolve they could become more knowledgeable about our niche and tailor their techniques to hit the target better. When a site goes down it takes 5 mins. to register a new name.. learn from your mistakes.. switch things up a bit and see if your new ideas work. I wouldn't underestimate the willingness of some to crack coffers of our market.

Bec "I research, gather the upsell sponsors and content I want and then I'll build a few I've been wanting to market." I've started doing the same. I've actually found something interesting in my research, and with a site I've recently put up, that shocked me as to the marketability of some content. You guys can Private message me , or email me and I'll share what I've found. I can only do so much and always nice to work with new people.

Squirt, what I meant by "using a minimum amount of content is a sad but real fact of today's industry" was just backing up what you'd already said.
Those gay sites that have great looking tours and free areas and then once inside, the content is either very little or very bad quality.

regarding "the token fag" comment, absolutely!:high:

no, what I meant is that if at least one of the people working on the site is gay and understands the gay online market, then chances are the site will be more in tune with that gay market and more likely to sell well in it.

You can be my token fag anyday :whip:

Ok, I've been reading this thread for a couple days
and my interest is piqued.

So what's the consensus on Topbucks' gay sites? I think we do a pretty good job but as long as everyone is sharing opinions, this is a perfect opportunity to find out what we do right or what we could improve on.

lee