Whats the message to gay people in this election?

I feel like i've been kicked in the stomach. 11 states basically said Fuck You to gay people. I guess Im not suprised since many were in the south, but its depressing to me that now, the south controls everything. They dont speak for me, and not the democrats can try to fight for us but it's fruitless.

And then the message to the democrats is that if they want to start winning they'll need to "dump the gays". Ive heard this twice on talk radio shows.
I dont understand how people can be so closed minded about people who just happen to be gay. Why the viciousness and the hatred towards us?

I visited Europe and it was nice, no one cared if youre gay. it's a non issue.

I really feel depressed now. I never had a Fuck Off and Go Away sign in my face like this.

the message is this:

Run North and live free, or dig in and fight for your rights.

We have the rights you want up here.

But you should have them down there. You're gonna have to stop being so fucking nice. you're gonna have to fight. You're gonna have to be militant, you're going to have to be in everyone's face. Nobody is gonn give you your rights, you have to pry them out of their cold dead hands.

We fought like crazy up here. And we won. You can too.

It says that we need to rethink how we discuss social issues to the rest of the country.

Plenty of tolerent people just have a problem with the idea of gay marriage. Look at the interesting case of Montana:
They voted Bush for President, against gay marriage, AND for medical marajuana.

A very interesting combination. It is really bad that this is being written into state constitutions. But the medical marajuana issue shows that it is *all* about presentation and persuasion. If done properly, it can succeed in the marketplace of ideas.

Steve

I did find it appalling that the american people chose a crook who sent their kids to die a needless war, raised thier taxes while squandering thier money, and made enemies of all the countries who were once our friends, rather than let a few fags get married. (Sorry, GA, I know you hate that word).

maybe the glass is half full - I get that anywhere from 25 to 33 % of america thought it was fine - it was 27 or 28% last I saw here in Ohio -

and if you know Ohio - The - Beer drinking - pick-up driving - harley riding - home of the largest known clan population - springer belt being - state - I think 27% says a lot more then not getting the 51% needed -

Wonder what that would have been let's say 20 or 30 or even 50 years ago???

But you do make a valid point : )

D-man - i believe you're right, and i hadn't thought of that in that way.

i think that more than the issue of gay marriage is the issue of what voting america has told us about their ethics, and how easy it is to manipulate them. the message isn't very positive.

maybe we can gently lead them into thinking for themselves instead of believing what they are told...

The fact we are having four more years of the current administration shows that America is currently in a provincal phase, clining to tatuted values and moral heirarchy in a time of uncertainty - which means the Gay marriage question was, in hindsight, a rhetorical one.

It does indeed show progress has been made but I also think it gives the gay community a real dose of reality: Exposure does not mean acceptance. We're still largely a novelty act, like the old Minstrel shows put African-American onstage, but for entertainment value. It was long way between Amos'N'Andy and the Cosby Show. That means shows like Will and Grace and Queer Eye are still the Amos'N'Andy category....but it's a start. Like the Democrats, we still have some work to do

The left needs to get its shit together, plain and simple.
The gay marriage issue mobilized the conservatives. The Republicans mobilized the conservatives. This election was decided by the fact that a bunch of people who believe the Earth is 6000 years old and vote according to morals - though misguided and misplaced - turned out en masse.

The Dems have abandoned their base to try and reach out to voters that will never accept them, all the while the Reps work day in day out year after year to keep their faithful organized. The democrats can't expect to take minority voters and the organized labor base for granted 3 years out of a presidential term and then show up in the summer of an election year an expect to win their vote.

It's no about winning over the undecides. It's about having your base show up to the polls and vote for you.

The message to gay people in this election is that you're not proponents of change but instead inspiration for maintenance of the status quo, if not regression. The only people who care enough about gay marriage and gay rights to turn out in force at the polls are those who are against both.

BDBionic - i couldn't agree more. and perhaps as long as each group is primarily concerned with their own interests - gay people for gay marriages, women for women's issues and so on - we can't win. because by splintering us into small groups, they can splinter where the votes end up.

lots of good points here - Thanks basschick : )

Mark my words -

just one more generation 10 to 20 years and things will change -as young people come to voting age and are learning more and more that hating anyone for any reason is wrong and as acceptance grows things will turn around

mark my words - the current political climate and paranoia will change - it's the last gasp and death rattle of a dying generation that held dear the right to seperate blacks and whites and that was less then 40 years ago -

PS: my 2 cents - Bush is a bottom!

D-man - our country has been through this before. without education, the cycle will repeat endlessly, killing millions and taking away rights from our own precious people over and over.

I wish I could be that optimistic.

But here's the message this election sent, flat out:

If you're gay, you're not welcome here.

You'll see the US Supreme Court take a hard right turn over the course of the next 4 years. And there is a Senate and Congress increasingly Republican to go along with that. Cheney's already speaking of a mandate from the people, and the Evangelicals mobilized for a reason.

Liberalism is defeated in America and any chance it has for a comeback will be offset by the fact that legislation will have been put in place over the next 4 years to hold it down and keep it away.

It's not just President Bush that's the staunch Conservative here. It's America. It's the United States. The results of this election makes that plainly apparent. The American people said "Take your born-again morals and pull this country further to the right".

Bush didn't squeek by. He didn't narrowly manage to win on procedural issues alone. He bred this twisted sense of morality in the American public over the last 4 years by pitting us against imaginative fears and stoked existing rightwing sentiment in those all too willing to express those feelings at the polls already. And he got a majority of the popular vote, a majority of electoral votes, a majority of the Senate, a majority of the Congress and an open door to throw the Supreme Court rightward. Because that's what the American people have decided he should do.

This'll be a decades long process. We're not on the verge of some kind of progressive or enlightened shift once all the Bible whackers die off. We're set further back than we were when we started. Once homosexuality was presented as an issue to the American people they took the entire nation in to the Dark Ages just so they could keep us away.

Seriously... that "morals" is what won Bush the presidency for a second term is all you need to know. The country's fucked.

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Originally posted by desslock
It says that we need to rethink how we discuss social issues to the rest of the country.

Plenty of tolerent people just have a problem with the idea of gay marriage. Look at the interesting case of Montana:
They voted Bush for President, against gay marriage, AND for medical marajuana.

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I think this is the key - its presentation of the points and issues ...

America wasn't given the option to vote on whether they accept gay people or not, they were asked whether they thought it should be legal to marry BASED ON THE HETEROSEXUAL DEFINITION OF MARRIAGE.

I'm personally undecided on the issue - I believe we all should have the same rights, but if you listen to the arguments *against* gay marriage, they have more to do with how it effects the definition of marriage for everyone else and nothing to do with whether it is 'fair' on the gay community.

Marriage is traditionally a conservative union - think of the rules that exist in society around marriage - no sex before marriage, sex is only to make babies & not for pleasure, mommy looks after kids while daddy works ... Homosexuality is a sin in the same book that sets the rules of marriage. So by allowing gay marriage, its technically against the religious rules that govern the union.

I think the definition of marriage should be changed & that religion should be taken out of it ... but have you ever tried to argue any point with a conservative religious person?! Its not about right and wrong, its about 'what the book says'.

My question to anyone who wants to answer ... why does the gay community want the right to take part in an archaic, outdated religious tradition anyway that most of the straight community shits on and disrespects daily? Is it purely to be given the same legal rights? If so, its not about 'marriage' in the traditional religious sense, its about laws that force equality for all people & that should be the point being pushed to the public ...

I think the biggest challenge for any minority group's requests to be accepted is to have a clear and concise idea of what you actually want ... as a 'breeder', i don't understand what the gay community is asking for.

I think you are all a bit insane - marriage sucks & most married people are miserable & bored. :bush:

Bionic, your last post was intolerant & offensive to those of us who aren't gay, but who aren't fuckheads either ...

How can you expect to be listened to when you say things like 'If you're gay, you're not welcome here' when *almost half* of the population were AGAINST bush and his principals (and lets not forget all of those who didn't vote). Ok, so 70 - 75% of people voted against gay marriage - how does that show that 75% of the population of the USA is against gay people?!?!

Tolerance works both ways - you can't expect to be listened to if you don't listen to your opposition & address their points without resorting to 'you are all fucked'.

Between us we have millions of eyes visiting our sites every week - we can educate people the same way bush has ... if we can get our shit together & stop bitching long enough to move forward.

if we let them tear us into smaller groups - the gay group, the women's rights group, the black group - each of those groups are weaker. if we learn to become one large humanistic group, we have much bigger numbers, and there is strength in numbers - particularly in the voting process.

basschick, i couldn't agree more - that's why the texas oil boys keep winning - we are too weak as minorities.

'the humanity party'

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Originally posted by cj.
[B]Bionic, your last post was intolerant & offensive to those of us who aren't gay, but who aren't fuckheads either ...

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Why? Saying the country's fucked in the sense things will happen in the next four years constituting this country getting fucked isn't the same thing as saying everyone who disagrees with you is a fuck.

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Originally posted by cj. How can you expect to be listened to when you say things like 'If you're gay, you're not welcome here' when *almost half* of the population were AGAINST bush and his principals (and lets not forget all of those who didn't vote). Ok, so 70 - 75% of people voted against gay marriage - how does that show that 75% of the population of the USA is against gay people?!?!

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This country was presented with the issue of homosexuality and responded with a resounding "Go away." To think that people's votes against gay marriage were driven more by their judgements towards marriage than by their judgements of homosexuals, I believe, is unrealistically optimistic. Homosexuality became an issue in this election for the first time ever, and the response was for right wing forces to mobilize to such a profound extent as champions of their moral perspective and impose it all upon the entire nation.
That progressives and liberals were either too complacent or apathetic to oppose that is just proof all the more that the entire world - not just the US - is now being led by the extreme right wing elements of a single political party. That's the reality here.

That Bush managed to get a majority at all is astounding and his successed should breed any faith in the system or hope for the future.

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Originally posted by cj. Tolerance works both ways - you can't expect to be listened to if you don't listen to your opposition & address their points without resorting to 'you are all fucked'.

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Again, we're using different definitions of "fucked" here. Though its versatility is one of the great things about the word, it also lends itself to confusion and misinterpretation at time.

Regardless, I've spent plenty of time listening to my newfound opposition and addressing their points for a good long time. The 10 years I spent as an active and participating member of the Republican party made it quite apparent how that party works and who controls it.

The far right. "Extremists" would be the only thing worth calling them. They dictate any and everything that comes out of that party, yanking any and all candidates to the right with the very first primary vote and ensuring they stay right there all throughout.

Rove/Bush/Cheney realized that early on, knowing full well the best way to win themselves a second term was mobilize that motivated base eager to ensure God's candidate occupied the White House and their moral ideology had a champion in the Oval Office. And that's exactly what they succeeded in doing - getting out their core who are the most driven and organized voting elements in American society today.

Personally - I believe the gay community went too far too fast. It wasn't too long that we just won the right to fuck in Texas and other states. We needed more Will & Graces, Civil Unions, Gay Coaches & Teachers, and work on Don't ask Don't tell. People need time to digest things. When you're too in your face - yesterday proved what will happen.

However, I am very saddened by the 70% turn out against Gay Marriage. What is really disheartening to me is that for such a high number - more then then just a handful of democrats including women and minorities voted against us. The gay community has always been very loyal to women in regards to abortion and equal pay. We have also been very loyal to minorities in regards to civil rights and affirmative action. So... you'll have to excuse me for feeling very bitter and jaded right now. The knife in my back cut deeply.

I agree 100% with Brian that the Dems need to stop courting voters who do not want them. I think it's sickening that Ted Kennedy can say he's proud to be a Liberal - but John Kerry couldn't/wouldn't. Democrats have allowed Republicans to demonize the word Liberal for almost 20 years. Where the fuck is my Liberal Pride Parade!

without melding these various people together - and according the the exit polls, more women voted than men - they vote according to their worst fears. but give them a feeling of commonality and purpose, and they will vote with that.

human beings are very gregarious. they have a tendancy to join groups - for example, i have found that a lot of conservative housewives are simply lonely. the more they feel unfulfilled, the more they'll vote partly for a feeling of belonging to a community. get to very gently know these people, and they will feel one with you. when that happens - when you open their eyes to the facts of what you have in common, it's not just that you will win votes... you will help enlighten a fellow human being see you as a fellow human being.

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Originally posted by djdez
Personally - I believe the gay community went too far too fast.

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Agreed.

I have said that from the start, equality however, no matter who is wanting it always seems to be a one-sided argument, the majority of gay 'campaigners' for equality so fr as the gay marriage issue goes wanted just what was mentioned by CJ above, the same EXACT rights as a straight married couple wants which is by no means a bad thing but, at the same time, lets not compare apples to oranges, as we found out a couple of days ago, it can often backfire.

Regards,

Lee